Stove choice struggles

[hikingguyantonio]

-So I have a 35' tall chimney with 10x9 flue. Currently I have a "slammer" insert that is illegal (must be insulated liner UL1777).

-I want to change to freestanding stove but no legs so I can pipe into the fireplace opening and up through the smoke chamber instead of drilling a thimble through 2 foot of stone/block.

-I have been reading that a catalytic stove does better on a taller chimney than non-catalytic from an overdraft perspective.

-I really like the Kuma stoves because they are within 2 hours and have outstanding customer service. Jotul is my second choice but is much more expensive than Kuma.

-I do plan on using an in-line damper just in case.

-Thoughts are appreciated.

 

[begreen]

A 35' flue can prove challenging for a cat or non-cat. Give Kuma a call to see if they anticipate any problem. The Sequoia can be installed as an insert, but it takes an 8" liner. An insulated 8" liner will not fit in a 10x9 flue. Ask Kuma if a 6" liner could be used with the tall chimney.

 

[hikingguyantonio]

I had spoken with Kuma. All their stoves are based on 16' tall chimney.

-I do not want an insert because of the flue liner.

-A double wall insulated liner will not fit in the flue and nobody in the area does pour in liners

-The chimneys were built inside the home with the intention to radiate heat after long burns.

-My neighbor is a 3rd gen. brick/stone chimney builder and he said the chimneys were intended to radiate in this manner.

 

[begreen]

The installation of the Sequoia without legs is an insert in the fireplace whether it has a surround or not. What is being described is a "direct connect" That type of installation is difficult to clean and the chimney needs to be tile lined, in excellent condition with the masonry 2" away from any combustible (wood). Have you looked at the BK Princess insert? That will connect to a 6" liner.

 

[webby3650]

I had spoken with Kuma. All their stoves are based on 16' tall chimney.

-I do not want an insert because of the flue liner.

-A double wall insulated liner will not fit in the flue and nobody in the area does pour in liners

-The chimneys were built inside the home with the intention to radiate heat after long burns.

-My neighbor is a 3rd gen. brick/stone chimney builder and he said the chimneys were intended to radiate in this manner.

You really need a liner regardless if it’s a freestanding stove or an insert.

 

[firefighterjake]

Jotul fan myself . . . but if you like the idea of buying local I think Pacific Energy and Blaze Kings are made in the northwest.

 

[hikingguyantonio]

Well, I do not want to line the chimney, thus the reason for freestanding. Freestanding just requires chimney in good shape.

-The chimney is 14"thick (block/brick/stone/steel/clay tile lined) in the front but over 3 feet thick on the other 3 sides.

- Chimneys were built by an old Norwegian who new how to build.

-I would be defeating the purpose of heating the stone along the chimney for "soft heat radiation" by lining it.

-Not that the Kuma Sequoia does not pump out serious heat and not needing the chimney stone to radiate for many hours afterward.

 

[bholler]

Well, I do not want to line the chimney, thus the reason for freestanding. Freestanding just requires chimney in good shape.

-The chimney is 14"thick (block/brick/stone/steel/clay tile lined) in the front but over 3 feet thick on the other 3 sides.

- Chimneys were built by an old Norwegian who new how to build.

-I would be defeating the purpose of heating the stone along the chimney for "soft heat radiation" by lining it.

-Not that the Kuma Sequoia does not pump out serious heat and not needing the chimney stone to radiate for many hours afterward.

He may have known how to build chimneys but if he dindt leave the proper 2" of clearance he didnt know how to build them to code. A freestanding stove requires a chimney that is built to code. That can be done with clay liners but if you are running it into a fireplace the requirements are exactly the same as they would be for an insert. In addition modern stoves when run correctly dont have a ton of heat left in the exhaust to spare. You really dont want to loose that much to the structure it can lead to creosote buildup.

 

[hikingguyantonio]

I understand. I just can't run a sequoia with a metal liner and there are no pour in chimney liner pros in North Idaho area.

-The chimneys/fireplaces were built in 1970 and only for wood burn fireplace use only until 2000. But he had a professional install the insert and perhaps code was different than it is now.

 

[Rickb]

I understand. I just can't run a sequoia with a metal liner and there are no pour in chimney liner pros in North Idaho area.

-The chimneys/fireplaces were built in 1970 and only for wood burn fireplace use only until 2000. But he had a professional install the insert and perhaps code was different than it is now.

Why would you ned the pour in? Any stove or insert that uses a 6 inch chimney you should be able to install a liner with or without the insulated blanket on in your size chimney.

 

[bholler]

I understand. I just can't run a sequoia with a metal liner and there are no pour in chimney liner pros in North Idaho area.

-The chimneys/fireplaces were built in 1970 and only for wood burn fireplace use only until 2000. But he had a professional install the insert and perhaps code was different than it is now.

You need to find out if you can downsize the liner for the sequoia. If you cant you need to find a different stove. With a new stove install you need to bring it up to code. And that code is there for a reason. Without that clearance in the event of a chimney fire there can be enough heat transfer through the masonry to adjacent combustibles to cause ignition.

 

[hikingguyantonio]

Code in North ID is that freestanding does not need liner, as long as cert chimney sweep approves the chimney.

But, all inserts require a liner per code and even Kuma requires it. That is why I don't want insert in this chimney.

 

[bholler]

Code in North ID is that freestanding does not need liner, as long as cert chimney sweep approves the chimney.

But, all inserts require a liner per code and even Kuma requires it. That is why I don't want insert in this chimney.

Well any chimney needs a liner. If the chimney is built to code that liner can be clay absolutly. But if you dont have that 2" it is not to code. To fix that you need an insulated liner. And regardless of whether it is an insert or a freestander in a fireplace you can run a stub of liner into the base of the clay if the rest of the chimney is up to code. And even if you get a sweep to sign off on your chimney if it doesnt have proper clearances it isnt safe.

 

[bholler]

And code in north id is not unique they use irc like almost all other states.

 

[hikingguyantonio]

What is the 2" you are talking about? Is that a clearance? The stove collar must match the liner size per Kuma/Chimney sweep. I would pour in liner just for Sequoia only since it is 8" and no way to get insulated liner down for that.

 

[begreen]

The masonry chimney is supposed to have 2" clearance from combustibles. They rarely do. Plus, all that mass will cool down the flue gases considerably which could make the chimney a real creosote collector, especially with a cat stove.

 

[hikingguyantonio]

I am sure I have plenty of clearance and tons of mass (literally)

 

[begreen]

I am sure I have plenty of clearance and tons of mass (literally)

The chimney structure is what needs the 2" clearance from combustibles. And after 35' of serious mass, the flue gases surely will have condensed into creosote.

 

[hikingguyantonio]

Makes sense why the liner is recommended now

 

[kennyp2339]

At the end of the day it comes down to practical safety, yes your masonry chimney may have the right flue space (10x9) to run the larger Kuma, but is it practical to run a direct connect setup? I mean flue gases will cool, collecting on the clay tiles then falling on the plate @ the direct connection, how do you clean that out? … you disconnect everything pull the large stove out then do the cleaning. (pia) So you ignore the dirty chimney and then have a chimney fire that cracks a bunch of tiles (and you end up hoping that the 1970's chimney was built to code while waiting for the fire dept to come.. and that's if your home)
In the summer you get a damp spell and the stove room ends up smelling like wet creosote because of the reverse draft that leaks the stink through the connection plate, the dust build up into the living space every time you do the cleaning, since you pulling everything apart and out to gain access to the upper fire chamber and smoke shelf to clean.

 

[bholler]

At the end of the day it comes down to practical safety, yes your masonry chimney may have the right flue space (10x9) to run the larger Kuma, but is it practical to run a direct connect setup? I mean flue gases will cool, collecting on the clay tiles then falling on the plate @ the direct connection, how do you clean that out? … you disconnect everything pull the large stove out then do the cleaning. (pia) So you ignore the dirty chimney and then have a chimney fire that cracks a bunch of tiles (and you end up hoping that the 1970's chimney was built to code while waiting for the fire dept to come.. and that's if your home)
In the summer you get a damp spell and the stove room ends up smelling like wet creosote because of the reverse draft that leaks the stink through the connection plate, the dust build up into the living space every time you do the cleaning, since you pulling everything apart and out to gain access to the upper fire chamber and smoke shelf to clean.

Very well said

 

[Ashful]

If you can confirm you’re meeting the 2” clearance between chimney structure and any combustibles, you could just slide an uninsulated liner down inside that clay tile flue, and be done with it. However, as bholler has already alluded, it’s rare to find a chimney that meets this requirement, if you could even manage to get at and inspect all of it.

I’d be sliding a 6” blanket-wrapped liner down that flue, and finding the best stove that can be run on a 6” liner. Did you call Kuma, as begreen suggested, to see if they’ll let you run that stove on 35 feet of 6” liner? I suspect that, given your fairly extreme height, they may actually recommend going down to 6 inch. Thirty-five feet of 8” liner would move a massive amount of air, almost certainly too much, given where most stoves are spec’d.

FWIW, I’m running a BK Ashford 30 on a 30 foot chimney of 6” blanket-wrapped liner inside an old chimney. I found the draft was running 0.18” WC, about 3x the maximum allowable by BK, so I installed a key damper to throttle it. It honestly wasn’t causing any control problem with the stove, as I’d have expected it might with a non-cat, but it was causing my SteelCat to clog after extended burns at a very high burn rate.

Installing the key damper seems to have resolved that issue, and I strongly suspect you’ll end up doing the same. But then you have to ask, why install an 8 inch liner, just to cut it back with a key damper? Height has a way of making up for diameter, to varying degrees, depending on burn rate.

 

[hikingguyantonio]

Kuma said there stoves had to be be connected with the same size as their stove/insert collars.
I did ask them about the height affecting the draft, they agreed but they can only go on what their stoves were tested on (16').
So, if my chimney is good per the chimney sweep, can I do a thimble above the smoke chamber and not line it?
That should allow for proper yearly cleaning and use of Kuma Sequoia free standing stove

 

[kennyp2339]

Kuma said there stoves had to be be connected with the same size as their stove/insert collars.
I did ask them about the height affecting the draft, they agreed but they can only go on what their stoves were tested on (16').
So, if my chimney is good per the chimney sweep, can I do a thimble above the smoke chamber and not line it?
That should allow for proper yearly cleaning and use of Kuma Sequoia free standing stove

You still have to create a air sealed bottom plate lower then the thimble for the draft to work correctly, ask anyone that has a class a system with an outside T that forgot to put the plug back in.

 

[hikingguyantonio]

Yes I planned on the Tee with bottom cover