Stove not giving desired heat in room.

[NewStoveOwner2020]

Week long reader first time poster here. I have to say this website has tons of of good advice and I am wondering if I can get some expert opinions on our situation.

We have just purchased a S20-1 woodstove and are not getting the desired heat from it. I have attached a photo that depics the stove and the room around it in hopes of it helping narrow down the issue.

The stove is located in a raised basement that is partially finished.
- Foundation is preserved wood on a poured slab
- Insulated where the wall meets the earth (right side)
- Not insulated (left side) where a crawl space is (but the crawl space is insulated)

Process:
- Add kindling bring pipe internal to 400F
- Add 3 logs bring pipe to 500F
- Close draft knob to 25% or lower

What I observe:
- Room temperature starting at 17c will climb to 20.3c over 2 hours.
- Stove top (appliance) temperature is 500F
- Walls surrounding stove are in the image, all temps taken with a IR gun at 1foot distance
- Some wood sizzels some does not my sourcing of wood may not be seasoned enough
- Radon increases substantially when running the stove without the HRV and a window open.

The stove started at 6:00am today and its 8:30 now when the temps were taken.

My Concern:
- The cold air return is too close by code and will be moved 10ft. But honestly its crap and is nearly inert when the furnace runs.
- The heat is not moving around the basement, I have tried running the furnace fan to move it around and this does not seem to be very efficient.
- There is a strong (blowing) in reverse negative pressure from the main floor bathroom. This is probably due to there being no OAK and the hous being built in 2018. I am looking into a OAK today but for now I have the window open a crack this keeps the fire going but is brining in -8c air all day. Running the stove when laundry is being done is near pointless. The HRV has little impact at fixing this even when set to recieve air fully from outside.
- Due to the strong pull of air from the main floor bathroom into the basement when the fire is running the temperature upstairs falls to 12c. Even with the furnace circulating the air and the basement doors open the upstairs will not exceeded 18c when burning from 6:00am-11:00pm
- The stove has to compete with following items all in our open partially finished basment: HWT, Radon mitigation, dryer.
- My wife will lose her mind if we cant heat the house after spending this ammount of money.

My Question:
How can I get more heat out of this stovetop enough to heat the basement, then I will worry about the next floor.
Will finishing the ceiling help, will a actual hearth help stopping the loss of heat through the floor?

 

[St. Coemgen]

I think it is important to first understand a few issues.

First, test the dryness of your wood. Get a moisture meter, and test on the inside of a fresh split.

Second, yes, I would recommend an outdoor air supply. They are pretty much mandatory in modern homes.

Third, your stove is rated to heat 800-1800 square feet. When you want to heat many rooms, you may experience in reality the lower value of that rating. If the area you want to heat is larger (or has non-standard ceiling heights, as stoves really heat volumes not areas, and the "areas" used in ratings assumes standard ceiling heights ... no cathedral ceiling), the stove may not be large enough.

Finally, it is important to understand that there are two types of stoves, radiant and convective, and they heat differently. Your stove is probably mostly a radiant heater. And radiant heaters heat surfaces in direct line of sight (but not so much the air in-between). Thus your temperature measurements are of the surfaces being heated, not of the air, which is probably much cooler. So running a fan to blow "warm air" upstairs will not work well since there is probably not much actual warm air in your basement. You feel warm in your basement because of the radiant heat (including some re-radiant heat from the heated walls), not necessarily because the air is warm (due to the volume of air to heat, and the inverse square of radiation). Try this: take an analog thermometer (digital may give wrong reading of the surface, not the air) and put it over your air duct outlet upstairs when your blower fans running, and you might find the air coming from the "warm" basement is actually not really as warm as you expected (more so if the air inlet in the basement if far from the stove).

Meanwhile, a convective stove is the type that is designed to heat the air that passes through the stove. These types of stoves seem "cooler" and do not make a room feel as "warm", or seem to heat a room very fast, which is often why they are less popular, but because they actually heat air and circulate the air (but fans may still be needed to move that warm air into other rooms), they are a better choice to heat other rooms.

Image Source: https://www.tips.adurofire.com/know...urning-stove-with-convection-or-radiant-heat/

In short, to heat many rooms, a convective stove (or a boiler) is the recommended stove. You will work more to get a radiant stove to heat many rooms.

 

[gthomas785]

First get some properly dried wood then get an OAK and I think you will be much happier.

Is that basement floor insulated?

 

[NewStoveOwner2020]

First get some properly dried wood then get an OAK and I think you will be much happier.

Is that basement floor insulated?

No that is the poured slab. There is a vapor barrier that we had to get through when the radon kit was installed that is all I know. When the time comes to finish the floors we were debating if we should raise it or just leave it on the slab.

We were caught off guard with needing wood and the stove when COVID hit. With temperatures being -30c on occasion in our area and needing to be working 24/7 from home we were looking on ways to cut down on the propane usage in a economical way. We were on a wait list for both the stove and wood as cottagers who normally flee south were turning cabins into 4 season hones.

Obviously this is the stove we have been dealt so I am trying to make do with what we have in terms of getting the most out of the unit and space so all suggestions are welcome in regards to improving the temperature.

 

[begreen]

The stove is not doing too bad with a 263º stovetop, but getting up to about 350º at least at the peak of the burncycle will be better. How quickly are you closing down the air control and how far is it being closed when the fire is burning strongly?

I find the cool air issue intriguing. Is there a fan in the bathroom? That may be the source of the cool air. Negative pressure in the basement may be pulling any air it can from any open orifice upstairs. But realistically this could just be convective airflow where cool return air is descending low and warm air is ascending at the high point at the top of the stairs. You can see this by taping a strip of toilet paper to the top of the stairwell doorway.

Another phenomenon to check is that the house can be acting as a chimney where leaks or openings to the outdoors upstairs are creating negative pressure downstairs Be sure windows are sealed. If there is an attic stairway make sure it is sealed. The same if there is a whole house vent grille in the ceiling. Older style recessed ceiling fixtures that are not sealed cans can also be a source of room air exhausting.

 

[NewStoveOwner2020]

The stove is not doing too bad with a 263º stovetop, but getting up to about 350º at least at the peak of the burncycle will be better. How quickly are you closing down the air control and how far is it being closed when the fire is burning strongly?

I find the cool air issue intriguing. Is there a fan in the bathroom? That may be the source of the cool air. Negative pressure in the basement may be pulling any air it can from any open orifice upstairs. But realistically this could just be convective airflow where cool return air is descending low and warm air is ascending at the high point at the top of the stairs. You can see this by taping a strip of toilet paper to the top of the stairwell doorway.

Another phenomenon to check is that the house can be acting as a chimney where leaks or openings to the outdoors upstairs are creating negative pressure downstairs Be sure windows are sealed. If there is an attic stairway make sure it is sealed. The same if there is a whole house vent grille in the ceiling. Older style recessed ceiling fixtures that are not sealed cans can also be a source of room air exhausting.

I will try getting the stove to 350 tomorrow and see if I notice a difference.

I can take paper towel (not just a tissue) and you can see movement around the fan when burning. The bathroom then becomes ice cold down to 11c and then the propane kicks in and the whole install seems pointless. I have also noticed all the latches on the main floor also have a negative suction into the house even on a still day when the fire is going.

If I crack open the basement window the fan stops pulling in cold air. If I run the HRV the effect is less but not gone. What my concern is when there is a power outage and I have a fire I don't want to be cooling the main floor and heating the basement. I managed to find a contractor that will be installing a OAK to the rear of the stove as the manual shows.

 

[gthomas785]

Based on what you describe, the OAK should make a big difference.

I do also think the uninsulated slab may be sucking heat out of the stove room which makes it less effective at heating the other rooms. Your radon kit may make it worse by drawing outside air under the slab. So putting down an insulated floor on top of it would not be a bad idea if you have the headroom to do that. Have you checked the floor temperature in that room?

Edit: now I see the picture. 20C is not bad for a floor temp. I'd be interested in the floor temp in other parts of the room though.

 

[NewStoveOwner2020]

Based on what you describe, the OAK should make a big difference.

I do also think the uninsulated slab may be sucking heat out of the stove room which makes it less effective at heating the other rooms. Your radon kit may make it worse by drawing outside air under the slab. So putting down an insulated floor on top of it would not be a bad idea if you have the headroom to do that. Have you checked the floor temperature in that room?

At 8:00am it was 20c right now its 3:45pm and its 34c infront of the stove and 22c two to three feet from the stove.
Slab temp at the radon mitigation fan is 16c.

If we are to install laminated flooring in the future with respect to the minimums from the door what is the ideal layers for reflection of heat off the stove? would some kind of subfloor be needed between the hearth and the slab?

 

[trx250r87]

You mentioned you have an HRV. How is it set up? Do you have the option of running the supply air setting higher than the exhaust? If so, this will slightly pressurize your house and assist in burning wood.

Eric

 

[NewStoveOwner2020]

You mentioned you have an HRV. How is it set up? Do you have the option of running the supply air setting higher than the exhaust? If so, this will slightly pressurize your house and assist in burning wood.

Eric

The HRV allows me to choose the following modes:
Circulate Inside Air: This still causes draw from the attic into the bathroom through the fan but slightly increased the main floor temp.
Circulate 20/40: This brings in outdoor air for 20 mins every hour, this mode is good until you hit cold temps and it has to defrost too often.
Outdoor Only: This mixes outdoor air with indoor air constantly, I have had it on this mode as it made it easier to keep the fires lit while keeping the window as closed as possible.

 

[peakbagger]

Sure sounds to me like the outdoor damper on bathroom fan is marginal. This happens frequently. The best design I have seen are these cape dampers 4" Cape Back Draft Damper-Tamarck Technologies (tamtech.com) . They are not going to backdraft.

 

[trx250r87]

Sure sounds to me like the outdoor damper on bathroom fan is marginal. This happens frequently. The best design I have seen are these cape dampers 4" Cape Back Draft Damper-Tamarck Technologies (tamtech.com) . They are not going to backdraft.

I installed these exact dampers on both my bathroom exhaust fans and have been happy with their performance over the past 6 years.

Eric

 

[trx250r87]

The HRV allows me to choose the following modes:
Circulate Inside Air: This still causes draw from the attic into the bathroom through the fan but slightly increased the main floor temp.
Circulate 20/40: This brings in outdoor air for 20 mins every hour, this mode is good until you hit cold temps and it has to defrost too often.
Outdoor Only: This mixes outdoor air with indoor air constantly, I have had it on this mode as it made it easier to keep the fires lit while keeping the window as closed as possible.

What is the make and model of the HRV?

Eric

 

[NewStoveOwner2020]

What is the make and model of the HRV?

Eric

Life breath RNC155 , I am unsure as to the accuracy of the comment but the installer said running it would be a waste as they are ment to run at a loss (slight negative pressure).

I can tell you not running it for sure has a worse effect on the balance of airflow in the house right now.

 

[trx250r87]

Life breath RNC155 , I am unsure as to the accuracy of the comment but the installer said running it would be a waste as they are ment to run at a loss (slight negative pressure).

I can tell you not running it for sure has a worse effect on the balance of airflow in the house right now.

I don't think your model HRV is going to benefit your wood burning experience. It looks like both intake and exhaust are on a fixed 1:1 ratio. You need to provide more intake air than exhaust air. I installed a Panasonic FV-10VE1 ERV which has independent intake and exhaust settings. They both can be set to 50-100 CFM in 10 CFM increments.

Either look at replacing your HRV, adding a small ERV like Panasonic FV-04VE1, or install an OAK near your stove.


Eric

 

[NewStoveOwner2020]

I don't think your model HRV is going to benefit your wood burning experience. It looks like both intake and exhaust are on a fixed 1:1 ratio. You need to provide more intake air than exhaust air. I installed a Panasonic FV-10VE1 ERV which has independent intake and exhaust settings. They both can be set to 50-100 CFM in 10 CFM increments.

Either look at replacing your HRV, adding a small ERV like Panasonic FV-04VE1, or install an OAK near your stove.


Eric

Eric thank you for your input! I did not know that about panasonic HRVs I appreciate you checking our model for me regarding this issue.

 

[moresnow]

Have you decided where you will be running the OAK intake?
Also. On the stove's lower back plate, on the lower left is there by chance a circular knock out plate that the OAK will attach to that has not been removed yet? Fig 2.2 in the manual. Page 9. Worth a quick look.

 

[NewStoveOwner2020]

Have you decided where you will be running the OAK intake?
Also. On the stove's lower back plate, on the lower left is there by chance a circular knock out plate that the OAK will attach to that has not been removed yet? Fig 2.2 in the manual. Page 9. Worth a quick look.

Yes I looked at the kit from napoleons site and the install instructions however the distance is longer than the 4 feet napoleon sells as part of the kit. I was thinking under a raised deck would be the best place the deck is about 7 feet off the ground and there is nothing underneath it. The house is a raised ranch so I have some room for play and it would be a straight shot with the joists.

The installer wanted to place a 7inch pipe to a box in the room near the stove but the fireplace installers requested 4 inch insulated pipe right to the stove pedestal.

While all of this seems simple to do my insurance company has request anything to do with the stove be done by someone with a WETT certificate and we have another HVAC issue that needs to be addressed when he's here.

 

[moresnow]

Yes I looked at the kit from napoleons site and the install instructions however the distance is longer than the 4 feet napoleon sells as part of the kit. I was thinking under a raised deck would be the best place the deck is about 7 feet off the ground and there is nothing underneath it. The house is a raised ranch so I have some room for play and it would be a straight shot with the joists.

The installer wanted to place a 7inch pipe to a box in the room near the stove but the fireplace installers requested 4 inch insulated pipe right to the stove pedestal.

While all of this seems simple to do my insurance company has request anything to do with the stove be done by someone with a WETT certificate and we have another HVAC issue that needs to be addressed when he's here.

Your OAK air supply point should be be no higher than where you tie in to the stove. It can be lower. Has this been discussed with the installer? @bholler @BKVP . Care to contribute fella's.

 

[BKVP]

Your OAK air supply point should be be no higher than where you tie in to the stove. It can be lower. Has this been discussed? @bholler @BKVP . Care to contribute fella's.

Discussed dozens of times. Big no-no...

 

[bholler]

What he said

 

[begreen]

This may be why the sweep suggested the separate box, however, some Canadian stoves bring the air into the pedestal or a box under the stove (PE) that does not directly connect to the air inlets on the stove. It's my thought that this is to create an intentional air gap to break a possible reverse draft. It would be great if this is the case for those stove makers to include language pointing this out as this is not an uncommon situation.

Ben, do they do this on Regency?

 

[NewStoveOwner2020]

This may be why the sweep suggested the separate box, however, some Canadian stoves bring the air into the pedestal or a box under the stove (PE) that does not directly connect to the air inlets on the stove. It's my thought that this is to create an intentional air gap to break a possible reverse draft. It would be great if this is the case for those stove makers to include language pointing this out as this is not an uncommon situation.

Ben, do they do this on Regency?

Yes the attachment is in the frame of the stove under the ash drawer. I can attach a photo tomorrow but I can be seen in the manual I linked in the first post as well. It connects to the frame the legs are connected to, gapped by the ash drawer, then there is a ash plug above it.

 

[NewStoveOwner2020]

To follow up on the air kit.
The only documentation I could find on the official kit is as follows:

Restrictions for the Outside Fresh Air Kit:

• Do not draw outside air from garage spaces
• Do not exhaust products of gasoline engines are hazardous
• Do not install outside air ducts such that the air may be drawn from attic spaces, basements, or above the roofing where other heating appliances or fans and chimneys exhaust or utilize air
• Air must always be drawn from outside

It does not specify a max length, if a U trap is permitted or not, but the description seems to indicate that it hooks up to the stove:

"The Outside Air Kit comes along with a 4' insulated flex pipe, the hood to prevent leaks and animal intrusion, and two clamps for the hood and the stove."

 

[begreen]

I've been wondering about this for several years. It seems intentional. I will try to contact John Gulland to see if he knows anything about it.