Struggling with a Jotul

[Genex]

Howdy, I recently had our fire place (which worked perfectly well) knocked out and replaced with a Jotul F400. The brickwork in the fireplace was in need of replacement anyway and I had wanted a stove for a long time - I like the way they heat and not create a draft.

The installation was done a couple of months ago by a Jotul dealer who also tubed the chimney. To cut a long story short, I am not sure it is getting to anything like the right temperature and I very seldom see secondary burn. I have a BBQ meat probe that I leave on the stove that indicates a temperature range of between 150 and 250F but that is probably not an accrurate reference point.

The fire is pretty enough as long as I keep the air lever fully open but no or little secondary burn no matter how much I stoke it or load it.

The wood is oak which I cut, split and stacked four years ago. It is sheltered from the rain and feels dry enough to me.

When I open the stove main door, this has little impact on the fire. If I open the door to the ash box, the fire gets a real blast and things take off like a kiln until shut again. Shutting down the air lever to half will turn a blaze into a glow. Shutting it down further will eventually put the fire out.

The dealer finally came around last week and he cannot understand what the problem is and why there is no secondary burn. He was happy enough with the wood, loading and temperature - and expected to see a constant secondary burn but there was none.

Given the delta paid to have a Jotul and have it professionally installed, I seem to be missing out.

Any thoughts on where the problem could lie? - I do like this stove and want to get it working properly.

Thanks!

 

[whphel]

I can't help with the stove but something is not working right with your stove for sure as it sounds like you have some fantastic wood to burn hell right now all I have is some 9mo split cotton wood which is no where as dry as what you got and it is burning fantastic. Maybe your air flow control unit is flawed in some way.

I would get a second opinion from a pro who has no financial or direct obligation to the stove or install.

Im sure some pro here will know how to help you, I'm still in the learning curve.

 

[TheFlame]

Here are a couple of things that might help.

1. Get a real stove top thermometer.
2. Run the stove wide open to start, until the fire has caught on well.
3. Do not try throttling down until you have a good hot firebox (400 degrees or so on the stove top thermometer) and the wood is well charred. If you can't get the stove past 400 degrees, you have a draft and/or wood problem.
4. Once you've gotten the firebox good and hot, experiment by GRADUALLY throttling the air back. It will take time to learn how fast and to what level you can close off the air to the stove and still maintain burn.
5. Secondary will be easier to achieve with smaller splits than larger ones, since the load will burn hotter and faster.

I installed an F3CB for my parents in the fall and they were having trouble getting secondary burn as well. When I finally got a chance to burn the stove myself, I discovered that the secondary burn was working fine on the stove, what wasn't was the procedure leading up to it that my parents were trying to employ. If you're too fast trying to cut back the air you will not end up with a proper burn and the flame will go out.

The other thing I would mention is that on the Jotuls the air control has no mechanical effect of controlling the flow of air through the secondary burn tubes. All the air control does is cut off the air supply at the front of the stove, forcing the stove to draw air through the burn tubes to feed the fire. There is some possibility that your burn tubes could have some blockage somehow, but I doubt it. The Jotul air flow design is amazingly simple, I can't see what could be wrong there.

 

[ansehnlich1]

Ok, so when you say "tubed" the chimney, what does that exactly mean?

Also, how tall is this chimney? Is it exterior to the home?

Is the stove in your basement?

How many floors is your home?

Are you sure your oak is not punky? meaning, kind of spongy, not good for burning?

I have the Jotul Oslo, on an exterior masonry chimney that is around 22 feet high, and it burns well. I must say there is some lag time getting the thing up to 600 degrees F. like maybe 20 minutes to a half hour or so, but I get my best burns when I let it reach 600+, then cut the air to half for a few minutes, then I can cut it back nearly closed.

 

[stoveguy13]

When you say he was happy with the wood what was the moister of the wood and did he check your draft as others have asked you really need to start with a stove top thermometer. this will explain alot.

 

[begreen]

The Flame has given some good advice. I would add:

Get some good kindling, start off with smaller splits of wood and leave the door ajar until the initial fire is going well

Add larger splits diagonally (crosswise) on top of the hot starter fire, allowing for air to get between each piece. Close door and burn wide open until a good coal bed is established and the stove top temps are at least 400F

Then, try closing the air control down no more than 50% at first

--> Some general information about the stove installation, flue connection (top or rear exit) and the flue design + height would also be helpful.

 

[jbrown56]

Hi, These stoves are a pretty simple design and not much to go wrong with them. I would check the draft and chimney height first as unless your stove pipe goes staight up and out they can be a little finicky with draft. I have some horizontal pipe issues and still hit 550* on the stovetop within 20 min., secondary burn is spectacular and get 8 -10 hr. burn times before reloading. I would also take the cover off the slide damper inside the stove to make sure that there is no blockage or a faulty part in there. Hope this helps.

Jim

 

[carpniels]

HI Genex,

I had an F400 for a while. I only have a 13 ft chimney and often so-so wood and I remember nice secondary burn. I am very surprised, because, like the others said, it is a really simple but well designed stove.

I agree with others. Get a stove top thermometer. Get lots of kindling and get the temp up fast. Add larger splits. Play with the air SLOWLY. It normally takes about a year to go trough the learning curve of each stove.

It also strongly depends on the wood quality. 4 years dried for oak means nothing if the splits were really large. Try to get your hands on some other wood so you can test that out.

Good luck

Carpniels

PS. where in the EU are you? I will be going to Holland in March, so if you are in the area I could visit and see if I can help in person.

PPS. I did not sell my F400 because it was a bad stove. I needed more capacity due to the addition.

 

[Genex]

Thanks all for the support and advice - I am comforted that this looks like a teething issue
I'll order a thermometer from an on line store and report back in a couple of weeks.
It is possible that the wood I am using is a bit big - quarters of 6-8 inch rounds. I'll try eighths or perhaps buy some wood in.
I have an internal masonary chimney - long but narrow bore and two kinks.
It worked ok before when I had the fireplace and then with the small stove I previously had.
I get a really good draft when I open the ash box door so I think the chimney is acceptable.
Kind offer from carpniels - thanks but I am in southern EU far off from Holland and hope to be fixed up very shortly thanks to everyone's inputs <:
Great forum this - Illl keep you posted.

 

[tranmere]

Ok i struggled to figure out how to get this question posted so had to piggyback on an existing thread - my apologies if I have breahed etiquette or upset anyone. We recently bought an older house, put in a Hampton insert and a Jotul F602. We have since traded back in the Hampton for a jotul 600 as it did not get above 200 degrees, and the F602 for an F3CB. Now we are finding the F3CB pretty hard to load - we can only get one or two small logs in. so 2 questions - is the 400 Castine easier to load and is it appreciably hotter? i refuse to rely on manufacturer BTU ratings after the Hampton (which was rated at 70,000 BTU).
thanks

 

[webbie]

Tram, at the top of each screen on the right hand side is a "new topic" button, that is the one you have to hit to start a new thread.

That is what you should do.

Begreen went from tn F3 to a Castine, and I think he had good results....but, although this may be closing the barn door too late, it may be a good idea to actually place firewood into the fire boxes of the model stoves on the dealer floor. You don't want to learn these things after the stove(s) are installed. We have always made it clear here not to pay ANY attention at all to manufacturer ratings.

So see if you can start the new thread and also read the article on choosing a stove linked in my sig.

Welcome to the forums!

 

[tranmere]

Thanks! where can i find firebox size on the Jotul's - couldn't see it on their website or catalogues. for a novice it seemed even to me to be an obvious stat?

 

[argus66]

u can usually get a stove top thermometer at home depot or lows mayby try and pick up some kiln dry wood while your there to test as well.

 

[cocey2002]

Ok i struggled to figure out how to get this question posted so had to piggyback on an existing thread - my apologies if I have breahed etiquette or upset anyone. We recently bought an older house, put in a Hampton insert and a Jotul F602. We have since traded back in the Hampton for a jotul 600 as it did not get above 200 degrees, and the F602 for an F3CB. Now we are finding the F3CB pretty hard to load - we can only get one or two small logs in. so 2 questions - is the 400 Castine easier to load and is it appreciably hotter? i refuse to rely on manufacturer BTU ratings after the Hampton (which was rated at 70,000 BTU).
thanks

I would say something is wrong if you couldn't get the Hampton over 200 degrees???

 

[webbie]

Thanks! where can i find firebox size on the Jotul's - couldn't see it on their website or catalogues. for a novice it seemed even to me to be an obvious stat?

Yeah, they don't publish it - I am trying to get this info.

In any case, even that measurement sometimes is not accurate - you have to see how the wood loads and how much you can actually get in - also, you can simply measure the firebox and get the cubic ft by LxWxH in inches, then divide by 1748.

There is a little calculator at bottom of this page which does it for you
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/burn_time_calculator

 

[begreen]

We had the original F602 before the F3CB. It was a really good little heater, but with short burn times. The 3CB is a good performer as far as heat output and efficiency goes. But with it's small firebox it too requires pretty frequent feedings. Each step up in size will burn longer, but will take a little longer to come up to temps too.

Jotul is lousy about providing firebox sizes. Eventually, we will have a database that we'll be able to populate with accurate data. The F400 has a firebox size of ~1.5 cu ft. The F400 can take about 4-5 medium sized splits. It's pretty easy to load and regulate. Burn times will vary according to how hard you push the stove temperature wise. But expect between 3-6 hrs of meaningful heat and one can expect a good starter coal bed even after 8 hrs.

 

[tranmere]

thank you! do you know what size the F3CB is?
Also i am getting some odd feedback from the dealer (I think they are trying to welch on their offer to upgrade) about the manufacturer not allowing lareger stoves in bedroom areas for safety reasons???? sounds a little odd to me but have you ever heard of that? the bedroom is 15X24, Ground Floor Master with lare bathrooms and closet off it and connected to the kitchen. We were hoping the 400 could supply soem heat to these adjoining rooms which the F3CB seems only to do in moderation.

 

[begreen]

I am going to 'guess' that the F3CB is about 1 cu ft.?? Note, the dealer should have told you that in general wood stoves are not permitted in bedroom installations. Sounds like he was blowing a bit of smoke.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/4465/

 

[tranmere]

uh -oh thanks for the link to the discussion on bedroom safety. The dealer actually installed the stove with no mention of any issue and the already upgraded from the smallest stove to the F3CB with no mention. Hence my concern when they raised the issue now.....

 

[begreen]

No kidding. And this was inspected and insurance approved? That's interesting because the F3cb doesn't have even have an outside air kit.

 

[tranmere]

no it wasn't permitted - nobody mentioned that. OK so i have to show my nainety here - how does the outside air kit work? would it help now? I can check which models have it i guess... what else can we do to make this installation safer?

 

[begreen]

These are good questions to ask beforehand. Now they are good questions to ask your dealer.

For more information on outside air kits here is a good link:
(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hooa.htm)

 

[tranmere]

would we be any better off witha pellet stove - safety wise?

 

[tranmere]

Ok so I went and reread the whole thread about the woodstove in the bedroom and got the calculator out. I calc the cu. feet of the bedroom to be 3528. @ 50cuft per 1k BTU that would leave me with 70,000 BTU's worth of air....
that said i got more info on not putting a peelets stove in because of the noise and smell (didn't see that in the brochure) and I am still not clear exactly how the air kit works and does it require a hole in the wall and if so how big??
Lastly on the dealer who started this off talking about restrictions on stove size in a bedroom, they cam e back to me today and told me on the phone that they were misled, that they had contacted jotul and there was no restrictionas far as they knew... almost comical!

 

[chad3]

I had some of the same issues as you and have figured out a few things. 1. Make sure you start small, meaning use very small wood and build up. This stove does not like to work with big wood until it has a very good coal base established and is up to a good temp. 2. Once there, DO NOT decide to add more wood right away, I did that ONCE Stove temps went to about 800 and climbing. I was running out of the house with burning wood. Turning the stove down at that point does not do what you think, it continues to go up. Be aware, try it first during the day, not before sleeping. 3. Once you get used to the stove, it works, but mine does not like burning above about 450 stovetop during mid 40's weather. It'll go well at this temp, but hard work to get higher. 4. If you can, get a few days worth of wood inside, it makes all the difference. My wife can keep the stove going very well with this wood. If you only have todays wood in the room, it will not work the way you are expecting.
Hope some of these tips help. I like the stove now as opposed to end of last year and beginning of this year. I had an old Jotul 118 and it would burn hot with just about anything, this is not the same.
Chad