Switzer's custom woodburning system

[EForest]

Gary received my deposit today and will start building my boiler as soon as he finishes smangolds unit.
I've spent many hours discussing with Gary the myriad of ways he could build my boiler and have decided on a 1050 gallon boiler with 2/1000 gal propane tanks for additional storage and several 8 gal/min coils for DHW, hot tub, and ice melt. The boiler will be a three pass design consisting of a 400lb capacity fire box (@18 cu ft I think) one 9" tube with refractory to rear of unit, 12/2" tubes for second pass followed by 12/2" tubes in final pass exiting rear of boiler to 8" smoke pipe. The two speed belt driven draft inducer will be bolted to existing 8" clay thimble of an interior chimney with lots of natural draft. The draft inducer will help the boiler push up to 750,000 btu/hr on those high demand days. If my calcs are correct the boiler will raise 3200 gal of pressurized storage 70* in 2.5 hours. I anticipate burning a full cord in two weeks in the coldest weeks of the winter and about half that most weeks but when you consider I'll be heating over 9,000 sq ft + hot tub, DHW, and icemelt I would say that's OK with me. The oil man made his last delivery this week. I meant to call last week to stop the auto delivery but forgot, now i have 550 gals of black gold in the basement. The Switzer has an oil gun so maybe it'll come in handy when I'm on vacation some winter. I welcome any and all thoughts on my system as I am just as green as green can get when it comes to wood boilers but I love a challenge and the idea of self sufficiency for me and my family. This forum has been my single source for info and guidance on this path. Thanks for all your input so far.
I recently posted that Gary's wife was getting a little uncomfortable with the increase in inquiries about their boiler. Well, this forum has opened Gary's eyes to new possibilities. He's now considering putting up a web site. Maybe he'll consider sponsoring Hearth.com. ;-) Until then feel free to contact me or search this sight for Gary's contact info.

 

[brad068]

Eforest,

Has Gary used that many 2" passes before in his boilers? I would be a little concerned about to much heat extraction-condensation. My design has 9-2" pipes following three 4" passes and my outlet temp is @ 240*. Mine pretty much blows steam the entire burn. Another problem that I have seen with multi pass in mine is that certain tubes collect more soot/ash than others. When I build my next boiler I'm going with multi passes with only one pipe per pass. Easier to clean and build, and I need all the room I can get for my new design ideas.

 

[EForest]

Garnification,
Gary puts a high CFM inducer to get the fire really hot and incorporates simple draft controls to maintain stack temps between 250 and 350.
He has many out there with the same design as he's building for me. You raise an excellent point though. I'll let you know how Gary responds.

 

[allan]

Garn

I'm building a boiler similar to the Garn. I have seen the Garn 1500 WHS and really like the design. I have bought a 2800 gal tank on Ebay and so I'm committed to making my boiler. Thinking about the passes, my tank is about 10.5 ft long and I was going to make the hx 4 passes like the garn 1500 and use 5" blk pipe (steam rated pipe). I was going to increase the fire box slightly but keep the secondary reaction chanber the same. Do you think that I should increase the secondary chamber length? The Switzer system seems to be mush like the Garn. I wish that I could see one. Any suggestions on the refractory used? I have several sources, but it is important to get the right kind for the application. I think the greefire refractory is a cast-a-lite and is what I will try to get. I'm open to all suggestions.

 

[brad068]

Garn

I'm building a boiler similar to the Garn. I have seen the Garn 1500 WHS and really like the design. I have bought a 2800 gal tank on Ebay and so I'm committed to making my boiler. Thinking about the passes, my tank is about 10.5 ft long and I was going to make the hx 4 passes like the garn 1500 and use 5" blk pipe (steam rated pipe). I was going to increase the fire box slightly but keep the secondary reaction chanber the same. Do you think that I should increase the secondary chamber length? The Switzer system seems to be mush like the Garn. I wish that I could see one. Any suggestions on the refractory used? I have several sources, but it is important to get the right kind for the application. I think the greefire refractory is a cast-a-lite and is what I will try to get. I'm open to all suggestions.

EUP, if you haven't already, check out my build pics under Uploaded pics for garnification. My tank is a 1500 gal milk bulk tank which works fine but you will be happier with the size of your tank. My next unit is going to be that big. The secondary refractory is not cast refractory, it is a ceramic fiberous material. I think Unifrax has the moist pac which will work just fine. It is a ceramic fiber blanket saturated with a rigidizer that cures the blanket when you form it into the shape needed. It op temp is 2300*F and melts somewhere @ 3200*F. I think the big garn has a 3' chamber and I can't help but think that a longer secondary wouldn't hurt. More refractory the better! I used SCH 40 A106 4" and 6" pipe. I did fine some 4" boiler tube but settled on the SCH 40 with weld fittings for turns.

 

[Eric Johnson]

I'm curious whether Gary still makes a chip burner. I think that's all he made when I talked to him about 15 years ago.

 

[TCaldwell]

eric,when i was at his shop last october he was building a chip burner for a concrete plant in penn. something like 2,000,000btu/hr

 

[TCaldwell]

eup/ garnification, according to the garn spec book both all the garns with exception to the small one use a 3/4hp draft inducer at 11 start amps, however the largest garn uses a 12 start amp motor, i wonder if the fan dia is different? I am wondering with respect to the length of the secondary reaction chamber,3' if this different motor creates more cfm to support the longer chamber, also the primary chamber is alot larger 49" long/40"dia as opposed to42"long/25"dia, also the combustion air inlet is 8" as opposed to 7"dia, also 10"flue opposed to 6". so im inclined to think that just increasing the secondary chamber length alone might not get what you want. the references were from a model 1900 to model 3200. my feeling is that if you could find out what the intake and flue cfm and the differential pressure is then you would have a proven example to base your design changes against

 

[brad068]

eup/ garnification, according to the garn spec book both all the garns with exception to the small one use a 3/4hp draft inducer at 11 start amps, however the largest garn uses a 12 start amp motor, i wonder if the fan dia is different? I am wondering with respect to the length of the secondary reaction chamber,3' if this different motor creates more cfm to support the longer chamber, also the primary chamber is alot larger 49" long/40"dia as opposed to42"long/25"dia, also the combustion air inlet is 8" as opposed to 7"dia, also 10"flue opposed to 6". so im inclined to think that just increasing the secondary chamber length alone might not get what you want. the references were from a model 1900 to model 3200. my feeling is that if you could find out what the intake and flue cfm and the differential pressure is then you would have a proven example to base your design changes against

Tom, What I was refering to about the longer secondary is not a higher btu output but only better combustion due to longer residence time. There is really no difference in a wood combustion system than a gasoline/diesel engine. The only way to get more btus is to pump/move more air aka more displacement. Bigger cylinder= bigger primary chamber. Bigger intake and exhaust ports= bigger intake and flue pipes. Bigger carb to balance with the bigger engine demand= more wood that can be burning at a given time. The more air that can be pumped/moved the more power you will get. Now comes the turbo/supercharger/blower fields. Compressing air will get more air into a smaller volume allowing more power per given volume than natural asperation. Hence the leaf blower trick, which is crude but shows you what can happen by "forcing,not really compressing more air into a given space. The difference is that the combustion cycle in a boiler is never closing off from the intake and exhaust cycles so it can't really be compressed to the extent of a blower or turbo. I guess it would be more like a turbine engine in retrospect but you get my point. In an engine we want the torque/hp in a boiler we want the btus, but to get more out of either we generate more heat. More air=more fuel burning=more heat generated=more btus.

 

[loggie]

I went to a farm in P.A. to see one of Gary's 1250 models yesterday,it was a 2 pass 12 and 9 tube the people that had it were dairy farmers and heated their old farmhouse, about a 40 by 40 shop, the milk room and the garage that the unit sat in plus all dhw.He says he needs to fire 2x a day.Gary installed the unit about a year and a half ago,he fired it for me to see it burn he didn't get too involved with the technical aspects of it but is very happy with it.When he fired it he just put a few boards and some hard wood in that didn't look too dry and it took right off but i walked outside and there was alot of smoke and steam coming out the chimney,but it did turn clear after a few minuets.The water temp was 140 when he started it but only went to 160 after the wood was gone,I cant tell you how much wood he put in as I was looking at too much but he thought it should have come up more,he thought maybe his shop heater was on with the overhead door open.Overall a nice boiler the chains operating the draft doors look like it could be problematic and looking at it makes me want to simplify the chains and linkage and I will build a tall chimney if I buy that model.Too many choices with the tubes I will think on that a little more. Thanks to the people for taking time out of there busy day to show us the boiler,nice folks.

 

[smangold]

Go Ed. Its about time you took the $$ out from under your pillow... Just kidding. Well isn't it cool that the first two Switzers on this board will be only 10 mins. apart. What a convenience to go look at what a neighbor is doing. I hope you are getting some wood ready. I got about 6 cord split and drying 2 of which are already a year old. I intend to do more, and have enough on hand for two years worth - eventually.I have the footers framed for the barn and the trench dug for the lines. (big rocks suck) and I hope to finally pour mid week. Scott. Also when do you intend to go get those propane tanks.

 

[EForest]

Scott,
I'm waiting on a load of tree tops from a local guy before I purchase a splitter from Lowes. Then I'll finally start that weight loss program my wife has been dreamin about. I have about 3 cord on hand two years old. I hope to get 20 split by end of summer to be ahead of the game. My nephews will no longer call me favorite uncle Ed after this summer
Have you heard from Gary? He mentioned the need to go over the final details of your boiler. Call him if not.
I hope to take a ride out soon to pick up the tanks but I'm waiting for my excavator to show up to dig my trench so I'll have equipment on hand to pull the tanks off the trailer. When do you expect to pick up your boiler? Maybe we can make it a convoy..
BTW I keep the $$ under my wife's pillow, it's safer there. :lol:

 

[smangold]

Ed I hope to go get it the end of April give or take a couple of weeks.Two 1000 gal. propane tanks and my boiler would be a bit to much for my trailer. What do you have to pick up the tanks with? And yes I need to call him and go over the build details. Scott

 

[EForest]

Scott,
I'll be towing my own trailer with my F350 crewcab. If you need help getting your boiler on the ground I might be able to help.
I'll have a mid size excavator with rubber tires on sight at my place (@ 5ton) but would have to talk to my friend about driving/trailering it to your place.
It'll be here for a while, it's a spare for him. As the saying goes; bigger the boy, bigger the toy....
I probably won't wait till the end of the month but you never know.

 

[loggie]

Hey ED,Scott just wondering did you guys see any other switzer boilers other than Gary's before you bought yours. I will order mine this week a 1250 model,I cant get the 1450 in my basement so if I need I will add another 1000 gal tank for storage,keep us posted on your progress

 

[smangold]

Hey ED,Scott just wondering did you guys see any other switzer boilers other than Gary's before you bought yours. I will order mine this week a 1250 model,I cant get the 1450 in my basement so if I need I will add another 1000 gal tank for storage,keep us posted on your progress

Yes Ed and I went to Mansfeild Ct. and looked at a 1050 in use for 9 years continuously. Pretty impressive.

 

[smangold]

Eforest,

Has Gary used that many 2" passes before in his boilers? I would be a little concerned about to much heat extraction-condensation. My design has 9-2" pipes following three 4" passes and my outlet temp is @ 240*. Mine pretty much blows steam the entire burn. Another problem that I have seen with multi pass in mine is that certain tubes collect more soot/ash than others. When I build my next boiler I'm going with multi passes with only one pipe per pass. Easier to clean and build, and I need all the room I can get for my new design ideas.

I spoke with Gary tonight, my (stock) 1450gal.has two passes of 12 2" pipes.He can rattle off pounds of wood verse rise in temp of storage at whim. Every time I talk to him I get a impression of competence and honesty.This guy has it figured out.

 

[EForest]

[]I spoke with Gary tonight, my (stock) 1450gal.has two passes of 12 2" pipes.He can rattle off pounds of wood verse rise in temp of storage at whim. Every time I talk to him I get a impression of competence and honesty.This guy has it figured out.[/quote]

He called me after his chat with you. I suggested he join the forum to cut down on his phone calls. I think he's considering it.
What a fantastic resource to have. Gary has built his boilers in every imaginable configuration and size for over 30 years. If he hasn't done it then it probably can't be done.

 

[Happy]

Hi Ed,

I am also talking to Gary to see if he can customize his boiler to accept wood chip and he is interested in looking at the actual woodchip system to see if it is doable with his boiler so I sent him some diagrams of other systems made in Europe.I hope he can design something for woodchip as in my area woodchip as a fuel is very cheaper.I want to keep both options ( cordwood and woodchip) available.I need system between 400k to 500k btus.Prior to talking to Gary I talked to Garn people and asked them to customize Garn to accept wood chip but they were not interested in it.Gary in that regard is open to the idea.I will be waiting for your feedback once you get your system up and running.Following is another european woodchip system :

(broken link removed to http://www.farm2000.co.uk/docs/refo%20spec.pdf)

 

[EForest]

Happy,
I've never spoken to Gary about woodchip boilers but from what I've read here he's built them for at least 15 years now.
You're in good hands with Gary Switzer. He has an abundance of knowledge on wood boilers from 30+ yrs of building them.
I often wonder if he's passing on all his wisdom to the next generation. I'll have to ask next time we speak!
I hope to have my boiler installed by the end of the month. When the first fire roars you will read about it here.
BTW that Farm2000 is very impressive. Has Gary seen the specs?

 

[Happy]

Ed,


Yes I have sent him diagrams.I am going to visit him around 20th of April at his shop.