The Dealers are the weakest link in this industry's chain... discuss:

[Mike Wilson]

After residing on this board for a few years, and reading the various topics posted, I've come to the conclusion that the largest liability this industry has is the independent dealers selling the stoves.

It appears that the primary complaints all the newbies have with newly installed stoves stem from poor product education, support, and follow up from the dealers. Yes, there are complaints about the manufacturers, however we all know that the manufacturers require the dealers to act as their point of contact to the customer, and I'm certain that provision is covered in their dealership agreements. Therefore, the dealer has the duty to step up and act, affirmatively and responsibly, to assist the customer with operational problems, manufacturing and/or installation defects (assuming a dealer install), and general stove use education. Failing that, the customer is left with a negative experience, and will not likely continue as a user in this industry. Yes, I fully realize that some customers out there are moronic buffoons who either don't listen, or complain incessantly, but this is a retail business, and the dealers knew that getting into the trade. Its part of doing B to C business, so a dealer can't complain about it.

I know we have several VERY good dealers here... the fact that they take an interest in their industry's user base and post here shows their interest and good intent. And I also know that most customers have a good experience. However I firmly believe that the vast majority of dealers want to make a sale... and then go make another sale... and then go make another sale... and to hell with the guy who bought the stove last week, he's done. This is ultimately detrimental to the dealer, the industry, and certainly the end user.

Opinions, comments, ideas, flames... Discuss amongst yourselves...

-- Mike

 

[MrGriz]

As a "Newbie" out looking for my first wood burning fireplace insert, I can tell you that the more questions I ask of different dealers, the more confused I get. I realize that personal opinion and factors specific to each unique situation can affect the answers to certain questions. I am also sure that there are many constants out there that are just correct procedure, requirements or best practices. That is where everyone seems to be different. I put a lot of stock into what I read in these threads as being good sound advice (better than I am getting from the dealers that I have visited). I think that is because even with the personal preferences for different brands, styles, fuel sources and installations, I also see common threads among all of the postings. Also, no one here is trying to directly "sell" anything on the forum. Therefore no one is just telling someone what they want to hear when a question is asked. It's the brutal honesty of some responses that also lends credibility to them, vs. the dealer who has you in the showroom and is trying to extract a check from your wallet.

I'm about to ramble, so you may want to grab a drink and put your feet up...

After reading hundreds of posts, reviews and articles, I felt "armed" to go out shopping at my local dealers. I have visited four in my area so far and have had varied levels of experience. The first one I visited asked me just about as many questions as I asked him (regarding my layout, fireplace, goals, budget, etc...). He went so far as to point out inserts on his showfloor that would fit my fireplace, which he would not sell me because they would not do what I wanted them to. He steered me towards the products that he felt best fit my situation. In my opinion, this is far better than the others, who just asked me what insert I liked the looks of and suggested that I jam the biggest of that model that will fit into my fireplace (could that be because bigger inserts also seem to come with bigger price tags). I also asked one salesperson who claimed to have been selling inserts for almost nine years whether or not I should put an insulated or uninsulated liner in my chimney and what (other than the insulation) the difference was. He said "I don't know" "we only sell the ones without insulation" "I don't know" "why would you want to insulate the liner in your chimney" "I don't know".... And he's the expert?!?!

My point is not to "bash" or put down any of the dealers in my are; only to point out the importance of doing ones "homework" before going out and making a purchase like this. It seems to me that there is a lot more at stake here than money, my family's comfort and more importantly safety come to mind. On the safety issue, of all the dealers I visited, there was one common answer to a question that I aske them all: "do I need a permit or inspection to install one of these?...NO". After everything I read here, I can't believe that all four dealers would steer me away from getting a permit or inspection from the township. To their credit, they all did say that they wouldn't install or sell anything until they had one of their people come out to my house and inspect the fireplace and chimney. Then there's the one who said, no you don't need a block off plate for the flue opening, we just jam some insulation in there around the liner...

It's just confusing to someone who is new to all of this. It seems as though every dealer has their own agenda and their all different. That's one of the reasons I'm so glad I found this site and all of the people here who are willing to share their knowledge honestly.

Thanks for letting me ramble and thanks for all of the good advice and information. At this point, I have narrowed my decission to two inserts. When I do purchase one, I am leaning towards installing it myself and having it inspected when I'm done.

 

[buildafire]

What an introduction for a thread! I normally just enjoy reading and learning from these posts, but I can't resist commenting here (I'm sure that was your point Mike, pulling folks out of the woodwork). While the customers main contact point is the dealerships, that is also the point of most variability. The folks in these threads are here because they want to be. No profit intentions. But dealerships in any industry exist to make a profit. They must sell product to survive. Just like the auto industry (and I've had my share of experiences there), salespeople start their days with their own agendas: "I have this or that product in stock that needs to move", "I'm getting a spiff on this product", "that product is new and exciting", etc. So yes, customers will get different experiences in different shops all day long.

Stove shop sales folks also tend to have high turnover. If they don't sell well, they get replaced. If they do sell well, this industry snatches them up if it can to do a bigger job somewhere else. So there are always new salesfolks needed on the floor. Couple that with the fact that it's darn complicated, and yes, consumers that do their homework are often more knowledgeable than a given salesperson.

Fortunately, we also have a pretty nice education arm within the industry, but it's still new. Yes, I know how long it's been around, but it's very short staffed and depends on feedback from the industry itself, which is so busy, it takes forever for them to get new and updated info, let alone the students to train. Many dealerships pay the money to get their sales folks trained correctly, just to loose them to car dealerships! (or pick your sales profession that pays more..) Dealerships also hire salesfolks at times they are needed (busy season), and who has time to train then? I'm sure they get some training, but everyone here knows it takes well over a year to get up to speed on the products and technical ins and outs of this business.

With all of that, we owe those dealerships HUGE thanks for keeping our industry going. They have to find and train those salefolks (and there ARE a lot of great ones out there). They also have to make sure the products get into those homes correctly, and they want to because that's where the consumer will come when it doesn't work right. They have to put up with stock shortages, financing all the product in their warehouse half the season hoping the customers come in (while its over 70 degrees on the East Coast in October) and then make the sale. The success of our industry rides on the shoulders of those dedicated dealerships. They may get into the business for the money, but they stay in because they love it.

So where is the fault? It comes out in these threads, but it's on a case by case basis and they get dealt with. It's a tough business to get good at. That's just the way it is.

 

[Mike Wilson]

What an introduction for a thread! I normally just enjoy reading and learning from these posts, but I can't resist commenting here (I'm sure that was your point Mike, pulling folks out of the woodwork).

Yes, that was the goal. I think a little debate on the issue is warranted. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions.

-- Mike

 

[tundraSQ]

I just bought a stove from a semi-local dealer and installed it myself with very little input from the store. Two weeks ago I new ZERO about pellet stoves. I can tell you that in my case calling the dealer and getting one person on the phone (maybe the owner or a knowledgeable salesperson) and I would have to disagree with your statement....BUT the problem is that it was hit or miss....several calls I made landed were picked up by "not-so knowledgeable" salespeople and I was pulling my hair out. I think i would prefer to get and answering machine and a return call to talking to someone who told my wife that a pellet stove could not be installed in any room that had forced hot water heating units in them. In general I think the industry is getting more sophisticated and that is leaving the dealer scrambling to find good help. In my case buying Harmon, I do not have the option to call the company directly...and the manual is not very helpful...if I did not find this place I would be really lost.

 

[elkimmeg]

Mike it is fustrating hearing about dealer problem. To me the most fustration thing is most do not know the stove they are selling, worse most installers never open the manual
The system is really broken when I'm th only one that has read the installation manual. Most failed installations are failure to read the manual and follow directions.
How many post here a dealer is writting up a direct connection and is clueless to what is required by code. IT would be refreshing for them to say, don't have an annswer for
you right now but give me a day and I will have a correct answer. I read so many post where dealer experience has given improper or incorrect advice is given. Dealers telling customers not to get permits. Mike we have seen this year after year. you only have to read it. All to often I get to act it out in real life. Mike I'm in agreement with you here but
If all dealers were as conciencious and the participating ones here There would be very few dissatisfied customers. We are changing that here ,but there is too many small establishments to see industry changes.

 

[BikeMedic2709]

I have 2 dealers in my immeadiate area. One is decent, the other poor. The one that is poor knows nothing of the stoves they sell. They are more about selling stokers and pellets than knowing the product.
The other shop will take you into their house (next door to the shop) and show you their set up. They also have 15 different stove manufacturers to choose from. Very informative. Very helpful.
I actually stopped to get some stove pipe, did not have enough money, and they told me that the next time I was in the area to drop it off How cool is that? I will do all of my stove/insert shopping here!

 

[daninohio]

Mike,

I don't think it's anything intrinsically wrong with the dealers, per se, it's just the nature of the fragmented mom-n-pop industry. I shopped at three different shops before buying. I didn't feel very confident with any of them because they were small time shops and if anything went wrong I knew I'd be arguing with a small, overburdened business owner and I'd be a low priority. I finally just bit the bullet and took the chance. People complain about the box stores like Home Depot, but if something goes wrong with a Home Depot purchase and you get satisfaction (refund) with almost no questions asked. That's not a stove shop issue as much as it is one with individually owned shops and a fragmented industry. Everyone loves doing business with mom-n-pop and getting personal service -- until they have problems.

 

[MrGriz]

More of my ramble....

The thing that worries me is that if I did not take the time to do a lot of research before going shopping at a dealer, I would have to take him at his word. You would think that I should be able to do just that. However, after going to several dealers and getting different stories from each one, it's hard to know what to believe. I'm just glad I took the time to look into things ahead of time.

This "problem" does not seem to be limited to the hearth industry. How many of you have found poor dealer service, knowledge or attitude from auto dealers, contractors, electronics stores or any other type of business out there. It's unfortunate, but it seems like there's a lack of people who give a $h!t anymore, they're getting to be few and far between.

 

[HarryBack]

but WHY is that Dylan? WHy is it you dont find the "quality" units at the big boxes?

 

[BikeMedic2709]

I don't ht ink that the average joe is willing to pay the prices that some are willing to pay. So the big box stores carry the lower end, that they may move product. Just a thought.

 

[wahoowad]

I agree with the basic premise of this original post. My dealer seemed very helpful, professional and all that for lightweight questions but there was a lack of substance for intermediate level questions. But it is no different than many industries. I point to the boating industry - horrible dealer knowledge and service. Maybe even worse that the woodstove industry.

 

[HarryBack]

im a dealer....just sitting here digesting this thread.....

 

[fastrac]

So whats the root cause?

I feel it falls solely on the manufacturers,


I feel its a mistake to decide who is going to sell there product based on there credit limit and how many products there going to purchase on there initial order, and how many units they will display


They should be more concerned on what type of training they have, will they provide after the sale service, do they have an installation department. Require them to keep up with the changing codes.

Our industry is changing,

I feel that the NFI certification program is excellent and that is the minimum education some one should have before they are able to put units on there showroom floor.

 

[jabush]

I haven't dealt with a dealer as of yet, but the local family owned Ace is most likely where I'll be doing my stove shopping when the time comes. I have been in there for stuff recently and have had a few stove conversations with various people. The people I have spoken to seem knowledgeable about their products. They carry VC, Morso and Regency (I believe) and were willing to talk stoves without actually trying to sell me one. Lack of sales pressure means a lot to me. In fact, the last Ace person I talked with wanted me to tell him more about the Huntsman.
That being said I feel one should do thier homework prior to a big purchase such as a stove. You wouldn't walk into a car dealership without knowing about the product. If you rely on your stove dealer only for your information, you could be setting yourself up for disappointment. Like old Sy Simms used to say "an educated consumer is the best customer".
Also, I don't know if the dealers on this board are representative of the vast number of dealers out there. I would guess the dealers here are better than most. There does seem to be more "bad dealer" threads than "good dealer" threads, but I credit that to the old adage that if you are happy with your dealer's service...you might tell 5 or 6 people about your good experience. BUT, if you are unhappy with your dealerthen you'll tell EVERYONE who will listen. Consumers have to take a least some responsibility for the purchase decisions they are making and not take everything the dealertells them as gospel. This has been proven right here on this forum.
Personally, I feel fortunate that I found this board and have access to the vast knowledge of its members. It has made it easy for me to "get up to speed" as far as wood burning, stoves, etc... and has been an excellent resource.

just my 5 cents worth...

 

[BikeMedic2709]

One of the many root causes in the tree of this problem is simply, people. Many people don't care. In todays society a reputation is disposable.When your reputation goes sour, you can just change your name or front and get a new one. There is no integrity. No credibility. And honesty is releative at best. Most people not only don't wish to tell the truth, so they doctor it up to be more pleasing and easier to swallow. That is a product of the individual looking for the answer. they would rather have some candy coated response. Example... "Does this make me look fat?" (Here I will say that we should show compassion when giving the answer.)
Most people look to place blame for the breakdown instead of repairing the breakdown. What can we do? For one, we need to hold those that are not doing what they said they would, responsible. The other is what we are doing here. Learning. Education can make individuals powerful. Like was mentioned in an earlier post concerning the ash pan being standard. When we have done our research, and have educated ourselves on the products we are potentially going to spend our hard earned money on. We have empowered ouselves. If we rely on someone else to make that decision for us... Well.. It is ignorance. It it's most literal term.

 

[BrotherBart]

I own three stoves. The dealer for the first one is dead, as is the company that made it. The dealer for the other two is bankrupt and gone, before installation was complete. It is amazing that in that situation when I perceive a problem with the stoves the only thing I can do is ask "What is it that I am doing wrong here?".

And the answer comes around eventually every time. And the culprit was me every time.

 

[elkimmeg]

Society has changed when I grew up I looked into my wallet to see what I could afford Never had plastic where I could spend what I did not have
It made me measure every decision to compromise and determine value for what I spent. Whe had not designer clothes or designer advertising
Nobody looked at your sneakers of brand name of you clothing. Only a few golf shirts had allagators on them. That was it Most owned USA made cars

Today people buy on a whim the buy concieved brand reconition. How many post here is asked as to which stove is better by brands. Venting and actual setup is
an after thought. A lot of consumers do not take the time to think threw all the factors. they purchase the stove then do not usderstand what it really takes to properly
opperate them They are all to quick to diss the stove of dealer. Howmany fiborless( sp) calls do dealers field? or service visits. If I were purchasing a stove it would be that dealers easiest sale of the week. I would know what I wanted I know its setup and know what to expect. That's being called educatedd. I do not need his oppinions but will listen to them if offered.
I know what my abilities are I know I can make the correct installation. Even if I could not I would be smart enough to know it was not within my capabilities but I would know what is involved and required to do it correctlyI would make sure everything is spelled out damper plate liner insulation model thiskness everything and pay for what is required for the correct install
I would post here for oppinions and advice before my choices and installation not after when things did not quite turn as expected. All too often the consumer has not taken the time to educate one's self and fall prey because they could not be bothered Education starts at home. Comsumers do not get a free pass here they are also part of what is wrong. It does not have to be that way. but they choose for it to be so

 

[MrGriz]

Elk,
I agree with your points regarding the consumer shouldering SOME of the blame. Maybe I'm the exception, but I try to research every mid level to major purchase that I make. However, many people don't do this.

Also, think of it in this light. A large percentage of those who do try to research before they purchase rely on the dealer for their information. It seems to me that years ago, that was just what you did. There was no internet, no forum such as this to exchange information, printed references were harder to come by and you were limited to your very local "experts". Those local "experts" were the dealers (insert whatever product you like). Back then I trusted the information I received from them, partly because I had to and partly because it seemed better than the information you get today. Today it seems as if the information you receive is incomplete, inconsistent, incorrect or just unreliable in many cases. I'm not lumping all dealers into this statement, and I'm not just refering to the hearth industry, but it does seem to be sliding in that direction.

There are still very good dealers out there in all types of industries who take the time to educate themselves on their product and then educate their customer on what best fits their needs. Unfortunately, they are getting harder and harder to find and spotting the good ones does take some research.

Good topic.

 

[webbie]

Years ago a resource like Hearth.com was not available, so whether big boxes or mom and pop, the customer had fewer sources of information. There are good dealers and bad dealers. I would say that any dealer who hangs here is likely to be quite good, because they are helping people with no thought of financial return. That is WAY above and beyond the call of duty. How many Big Box employees have come on Hearth.com to help folks?

I would say this industry is no different than most others - if anything, better than most retail setups. No, it doesn't match up to the work you expect from licensed electricians, etc. - but then again stove installation is more like remodeling, and there are countless ways of doing things.

As always, the customer (consumer) has to be vigilant.

 

[cbrodsky]

I think one of the problems is that there are so many different options out there that small operations can only show a tiny slice of what is available. So inevitably, they start making decisions for you - i.e. we only sell non-cats or cats. Or we only sell gas. Or we only sell pellets. Or we are Jotul only - no VC. Etc... To some degree, I'd love to see a wood stove "superstore" that actually covers the multitude of options out there, but there just isn't enough demand. So in the end, you get these mom-n-pop operations that don't really educate the customer because odds are they actually won't have the right solution in their miniscule selection.

I was completely unimpressed with two local dealers I visited when shopping. The one in Poughkeepsie had a nice showroom and commendable selection compared to many. Even had them come out the quote me a chimney install - they came, and never followed up with a price or answer as to whether it could even be done! Later, I tried to get a trim piece for my inside stovepipe locally - what an absolute circus! Weeks of non-responsiveness, stories about when it would come in, etc... finally I just ignored their calls altogether. Should have ordered it myself on the internet from day 1; fortunately, my chimney installer was able to locate one for me. Went to another in Pleasant Valley - total zoo on a Saturday, understaffed, and really not interested in answering my questions since I was unsure if I could make a chimney work. Seemed like they assumed I was not serious or couldn't afford it.

Then I went to the internet - wow what a change. First, a local chimeny installer had E-MAIL! And he knew how to open attachments! A few photos from me with a couple pages of description, and he was able to bid the job without even coming to visit - knocked $100 off the price just for that. Communicated exceptionally well for a contractor and did great work too.

So now I needed a nice cast iron stove, but can't stand the local dealers. Start looking around online and stumble on hearth.com and discovered they make stoves out of soapstone! Read the cat/non-cat debate of the week, learned more and more and realized for our application, Woodstock was the ticket. Once again, on the internet/phone - outstanding company to deal with. First rate operation. We made a weekend of it camping up at Ascutney Mountain, toured the factory, and picked up our new stove - very memorable trip, and more than paid for with what I saved on shipping Also helped us through the stovepipe purchase. Turned out there was a mistake in something we were told by a guy they had working the floor that day which we discovered later - they told me keep what I had but they'd refund the cost, and for my inconvenience, shipped me what I needed at their wholesale cost. So even when a mistake was made, they went way above and beyond to make it right.

The net of all this - in my experience, people get way too caught up in the idea that you have to patronize a local dealer or you're going to be in big trouble. I disagree. I think you could argue the internet gives you more exposure to finding the right product for your particular application from an operation with the scale to provide the service you need. There is no-one size fits all solution with stoves, and the industry for better or worse, has a multitude of offerings, one of which will meet your exact needs, but almost certianly is not in your local store with 7-8 stoves on display. There are good local contractors out there to help you through it if needed. Don't write mail order off. May not be a popular opinion on here, but that's my $0.02.

-Colin

 

[BrotherBart]

The net of all this - in my experience, people get way too caught up in the idea that you have to patronize a local dealer or you're going to be in big trouble. I disagree. I think you could argue the internet gives you more exposure to finding the right product for your particular application from an operation with the scale to provide the service you need. There is no-one size fits all solution with stoves, and the industry for better or worse, has a multitude of offerings, one of which will meet your exact needs, but almost certianly is not in your local store with 7-8 stoves on display. There are good local contractors out there to help you through it if needed. Don't write mail order off. May not be a popular opinion on here, but that's my $0.02.

-Colin

Yep. And I do not know one local hearth shop here that does not use local contractors for installs anyway. The installation contractors should start doing an assessment for a fixed fee and recommending the stove. Not the dealer. The contractors have actually had to make the things work and they have worked with the different dealers before.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Hmmm, i dont see to many online dealers hanging out here helping people. I guess there all to busy selling stoves? Untill maufactures open up online sales to the major brands, it will stay where its at with mom and pop. I guarentee you that jotul or somone doenst want to be the ones to start taking all the calls from the consumers that there online dealers sold to and cant help. There is a reason that manufactures allways tell you to call your dealer, they dont want to deal with the public! Buying a stove online is nuts. I would rather see some one at the box store then at some online shop. At least when it breaks HD will just take it back. On the otherhand, sometimes online sales make my day. Its one of my favriot things when customer comes in, wants advice on how to hook up a stove they bought online... wants you to design a system, then go home and "think" about it, (stovepipe.com is open and ready on there browser) order that too on the internet to save 10 or 15% "hey, why dont you call the internet?" I love it. I dont realy care where people buy from. But dont bug me unless you plan on supporting me. At work, i dont have time.

 

[HarryBack]

WARNING: DEALER POST

Ive been lurking this thread, and have thorougly enjoyed the posts here. There are alot of pessimists on this board. I think we can all agree that the world has greatly changed in a generation. Think of the advances in technology, just in the last 15 years! Think of the changes in the world in the last 100. A few years ago, my Grandmother died and we were talking about how the world has changed in her lifetime. SHe was born in 1911. SHe used to tell stories about her childhood. Her mom died of "consumption" when she was 6 and she can recall then burying her mother on a cold icy day....the horses couldnt get up the hill becuase the carriage kept sliding. She had no electricity or phone. She lived throught WWI, WWII, The Korean War, the Vietnam War, Persian Gulf, etc. I think society has changed as much as anything else, for better or worse is debatable. How we buy things has changed, what we buy has changed, how things are sold and distributed has changed. The Mom and Pops are pretty few and far between now....society has made the decision that quick satisfaction and convenience win out over personal service, for the most part....if this werent true, the big boxes wouldnt exist. Anyone remember the corner meat market and groceries? Gone, for the most part. Why? It wasnt due to lack of commitment on the owners' part, or poor service. Maybe price?
Dealers these days face different problems than they faced before. Most stove maufacturers require a prebuy for stoves, which is nothing to sniff at as an investment..anyone know how much 150 Harman stoves cost? Customers come in and expect free service and advice...I know, noone here does that, but trust me, its prevalent and exceedingly common in the industry. They come to us rather than the big boxes because they expect we know more, pick our brains, then slam you over the head with the big box price hammer. There are also a greater amount of folks out there who lack common sense or basic knowledge of how to operate or install the stove, and insist you teach them how to operate the unit they bought elsewhere....no money at all for the dealer, sucking up resources better spent on others. Hearth stores arent often revisited, so please dont use the return business argument. Folks buy a woodstove, then not likely much else for years. Then theres the codes and regs that have to be followed. Good thing we have people like Elk, who cares about what he does. Fifty states and how many other code officials do we see here posting faithfully? I may not agree with some of what he says, but Im glad he's here. How many hearth dealers post here, given the total amount in the country....heck...the world?....I ashamedly forgot we've now got a global economy and many posters here who are form all corners of the earth...Im sorry.

I guess in summary, what Im trying to say, is that, bottom line, a hearth shop/stove dealer exists to make money. Its harder and harder to do so in our exceedingly immediate satisfaction society. This business is unlike other retail businesses because of the technicality of it, the codes to be followed, how those codes are interpreted by various town and city code officials, the level of expertise of workers and installers required.....the potential for litigation.....someones gotta be out there shoveling and sanding the sidewalks so noone falls, let alone an improper install. Society has changed, people have changed, so, I guess the hearth shop has to change as well.

Have a good day!

 

[BrotherBart]

Harryback:

"I guess in summary, what Im trying to say, is that, bottom line, a hearth shop/stove dealer exists to make money. Its harder and harder to do so in our exceedingly immediate satisfaction society. This business is unlike other retail businesses because of the technicality of it, the codes to be followed, how those codes are interpreted by various town and city code officials, the level of expertise of workers and installers required.....the potential for litigation.....someones gotta be out there shoveling and sanding the sidewalks so noone falls, let alone an improper install. Society has changed, people have changed, so, I guess the hearth shop has to change as well.

Have a good day! "

Heck Harryback hearth shops have changed. You guys had to because just selling stoves ain't gonna pay the bills for anybody. You probably have better margins and fewer headaches and post sale expenses with everything in your store than you have with stoves. In a lot of ways we should all be thankful that hearth stores even exist anymore. Not kidding a bit.

As to customer service, etc. When dad was still with us he always said that he bet the first words out of Adam and Eve's mouths were "The farmers are all going broke, they don't make cars like they used to and you just can't get good service anymore.".