The rise of EVs.... some data.

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.

brenndatomu

Minister of Fire
Aug 21, 2013
7,517
NE Ohio

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
7,087
Downeast Maine
Well, I guess that's not the end of the world then...
Yeah, EVs have gotten much faster at charging. Furthermore, if you are going on a long road trip with passengers, you will be stopping every 150 miles or so to use the bathroom, stretch, etc. If you have kids that's a 30+ minute stop, although I'm sure there are families that can do it faster or slower. Plenty of time to add another 150 miles to most EVs, if not even more range.
 

peakbagger

Minister of Fire
Jul 11, 2008
7,691
Northern NH
I am still looking for somewhere to plug in my level 2 charger on the road for my plug in hybrid. I have found various charging stations both Tesla and non tesla but non are compatible with my Toyota.

The cynic in me is starting to think that facility owners are looking at chargers for "green cred" rather than actually being used for charging.
 
  • Like
Reactions: EbS-P and SpaceBus

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
7,087
Downeast Maine
I am still looking for somewhere to plug in my level 2 charger on the road for my plug in hybrid. I have found various charging stations both Tesla and non tesla but non are compatible with my Toyota.

The cynic in me is starting to think that facility owners are looking at chargers for "green cred" rather than actually being used for charging.
Are there no adaptors to make it work with the Tesla gear? At some point an agency is going to have to dictate a standardized plug/charging arrangement.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,548
SE North Carolina
Can I put in a prop for the working poor here please? My copy of "Solar Power for Dummies" just got here yesterday. I also got some gas today, just for the data point.

On the one hand, I pumped 11.703 gallons (of 90 octane Chevron) in 1 minute, 15.71 seconds, today, at pump #3 at the Chevron station closest to my office. This doesn't include feeding my VISA card to the pump head or fooling with the hoses, just pump time. I am not sure how many amps that would be on a 220v charging circuit, and I am not going to figure it out tonight, but I bet it is more or less equal to (or greater than) the 100 amp 220volt service that feeds my entire house.

Now picture an ideal case among the working poor. Picture say a 2 year old and a 4 year old child. One of the two parents could have earned a bachelors in say accounting, the other could have gone to VoTech to become say an ASE certified mechanic. Instead of going on welfare this couple has chosen to stay together, raise their children together, dad is working two fulltime jobs at or near minimum wage, plus a weekend gig, mom is working one full time job (night shift) and grandma is roped in to childcare at shift changes instead of being the grandma she hoped to be. If your home state did not opt in for the MedicAid expansion under president Barak this family is screwed. If your home state did opt in, they are one motor vehicle accident away from financial catastrophe.

A few years from today this family is going to have a bottom feeder EV and they are going to have to charge it. They haven't had more than 1/4 tank of gas in their ratty ICE vehicle since 2007. If the EV cannot be charged at one or another of the parent's four jobs, game over; the vehicle is simply not at home long enough to be charged at home. They are renting housing, if there is a PV system on the roof they are not benefitting from it.

I don't mean to open a can of worms here, but how can we logically and compassionately include the folks that are already busting their collective humps in this inevitable transition? It is far too late to invoke Acts chapter 15, Elvis left the building four years ago (qv).
It is many of the same people that are hit hardest by climate change which this whole EV transition is meant to reduce. Probably not for the parents or kids but maybe grandkids? I think you may find if gas prices stay reasonable a venerable used ICE vehicle market will exist. One where the average age of a on ICE vehicle get older and older. (Picture of Cuba flash in my head but it’s not going to be that). With out changes to building code they will not have access to chargers in my opinion. Subsidies will be a thing. Small cheap BEV will too. I fully expect some company will license a Chinese design get batteries for it that make it tax credit eligible and sell it in the US. It won’t be free and and probably more expensive than a 15?year old ICE. The lack of vehicles produced the past two years will be noticeable in the used market for quite sometime.

13 years is not a long time. This is not a prohibition of ICE vehicles. Companies will find loopholes in rules. Political winds may shift. Hang on. We are in for a ride. Good sound policy at the state level will be important.
 

woodgeek

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2008
4,782
SE PA
It is many of the same people that are hit hardest by climate change which this whole EV transition is meant to reduce. Probably not for the parents or kids but maybe grandkids? I think you may find if gas prices stay reasonable a venerable used ICE vehicle market will exist. One where the average age of a on ICE vehicle get older and older. (Picture of Cuba flash in my head but it’s not going to be that). With out changes to building code they will not have access to chargers in my opinion. Subsidies will be a thing. Small cheap BEV will too. I fully expect some company will license a Chinese design get batteries for it that make it tax credit eligible and sell it in the US. It won’t be free and and probably more expensive than a 15?year old ICE. The lack of vehicles produced the past two years will be noticeable in the used market for quite sometime.

13 years is not a long time. This is not a prohibition of ICE vehicles. Companies will find loopholes in rules. Political winds may shift. Hang on. We are in for a ride. Good sound policy at the state level will be important.

Not clear why you are so pessimistic. Cheap EVs and PHEVs are already in the used market NOW. And the price of NEW EVs is still falling, controlling for luxury and range.

All of those new EVs are gonna be used EVs in a few years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ashful

peakbagger

Minister of Fire
Jul 11, 2008
7,691
Northern NH
I am still looking for somewhere to plug in my level 2 charger on the road for my plug in hybrid. I have found various charging stations both Tesla and non tesla but non are compatible with my Toyota.

The cynic in me is starting to think that facility owners are looking at chargers for "green cred" rather than actually being used for charging.
I spoke too soon, while driving up from Mass today I found an outlet Mall in Tilton NH with chargers that would plug into my car. Over lunch I racked up 3 whole miles of range. Not sure what the output was as there was no displays just beer ads. My Prime is limited to 3300 watts maximum charge rate (there is a deluxe version with a 6600 watt capability but most at 3300 Watts) Therefore a Tesla station would not buy me much as I would be limited by the cars capacity.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,548
SE North Carolina
Not clear why you are so pessimistic. Cheap EVs and PHEVs are already in the used market NOW. And the price of NEW EVs is still falling, controlling for luxury and range.

All of those new EVs are gonna be used EVs in a few years.
With the used EV tax credit the equivalent used ICE will have to be cheaper
I spoke too soon, while driving up from Mass today I found an outlet Mall in Tilton NH with chargers that would plug into my car. Over lunch I racked up 3 whole miles of range. Not sure what the output was as there was no displays just beer ads. My Prime is limited to 3300 watts maximum charge rate (there is a deluxe version with a 6600 watt capability but most at 3300 Watts) Therefore a Tesla station would not buy me much as I would be limited by the cars capacity.
At home I charge at my Tesla 3100 watts. Some month soon the perfect vehicle will arrive on the market.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
96,392
South Puget Sound, WA
Are there no adaptors to make it work with the Tesla gear? At some point an agency is going to have to dictate a standardized plug/charging arrangement.
Yes, standardization will help a lot. Note that the charging cable is just that, the actual charger is built into the car. There is a difference in DC charging systems and L2 AC charging systems that work off of 120v or 240vac, the latter being much more universal with early EVs and hybrids. One can adapt sometimes or just plug it into a wall outlet. That said, the next generation will be mostly set up DC fast chargers I think, but they still need to be able to home (or motel) charge so they have an AC>DC converter built in. There is a whole kit of adapters available for Teslas.
 

woodgeek

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2008
4,782
SE PA
I spoke too soon, while driving up from Mass today I found an outlet Mall in Tilton NH with chargers that would plug into my car. Over lunch I racked up 3 whole miles of range. Not sure what the output was as there was no displays just beer ads. My Prime is limited to 3300 watts maximum charge rate (there is a deluxe version with a 6600 watt capability but most at 3300 Watts) Therefore a Tesla station would not buy me much as I would be limited by the cars capacity.
I'm really curious, what kind of plug does the Rav4 have? Not a SAE J1772?
 

peakbagger

Minister of Fire
Jul 11, 2008
7,691
Northern NH
I'm really curious, what kind of plug does the Rav4 have? Not a SAE J1772?
The Prime has a standard J1772. The same mall has some with CCS1 cables that is DC fast charger cable, Its looks like the round J1772 but has two additional ports outside the circle. Despite it looking like a J1772 it would not fit my Toyota which does not have DC charging. .
 

woodgeek

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2008
4,782
SE PA
The Prime has a standard J1772. The same mall has some with CCS1 cables that is DC fast charger cable, Its looks like the round J1772 but has two additional ports outside the circle. Despite it looking like a J1772 it would not fit my Toyota which does not have DC charging. .
Got it. You are not supposed to plug in CCS plugs to J1772 outlets... I think the top part still has the same pilot voltages, but doesn't have the 240V lines connected anyway.

But usually there are like 100 L2 public EVSEs with a J1772 for every CCS out there. And most would be more than the 3 kW you want.

You found a dog of an L2 if it gave you 3 miles over lunch, <1 kW. Yikes.

I think now that most EVs are longer range, the appeal of L2s at grocery stores and restaurants has gone down a LOT. And with less business, maybe fewer are being maintained. Now, I think the appeal of L2s is 'destination chargers' where you will be staying for >6 hours... like hotels, campgrounds or amusement parks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SpaceBus

peakbagger

Minister of Fire
Jul 11, 2008
7,691
Northern NH
My guess is the charging stations can be throttled to put out lower than max amps.
 

semipro

Minister of Fire
Jan 12, 2009
4,214
SW Virginia
You found a dog of an L2 if it gave you 3 miles over lunch, <1 kW. Yikes.
A plug here for the PlugShare app. It lets you share charging rates, dead EVSEs, when you plan to leave, etc. with others.
 

peakbagger

Minister of Fire
Jul 11, 2008
7,691
Northern NH
Of course anything tagged for aviation is usually very steeply priced ; but in concept its the type of tech needed to get EVs and Plug in EVs into more of the mainstream.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
96,392
South Puget Sound, WA
Note that charging speed drops a fair amount along with range in cold winter weather. Range suffers worse in cars with resistance heaters instead of heat pumps.
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
6,267
Long Island NY
Note that charging speed drops a fair amount along with range in cold winter weather. Range suffers worse in cars with resistance heaters instead of heat pumps.
Which seems like an issue for aviation, being chilly up there and all....
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Ashful

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
6,267
Long Island NY
Then your remark of (non-resistive-heat) winter range for cars is just not valid...?
It is faaaaaaar colder up there than down on the ground, unless you're above the arctic circle or so.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,548
SE North Carolina
Which seems like an issue for aviation, being chilly up there and all....
Keeping batteries with in an optimum operating temp range is a sloveable problem. They could be kept warm on the ground and I would guess the first planes won’t have more than 2 hours of powered flight time. Cabin temps will the be maintained by resistive heat??
 
  • Like
Reactions: woodgeek

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
6,267
Long Island NY
My point is that a concern was noted (battery performance vs weather). That that concern is far worse for planes (because I'm sorry, but heat pumps at -50 F don't really work, and resistive heat drains too much) than for cars.

On the more positive side, I could imagine a plane that flies on electric energy, but has a little (bio-?) carbon-based fuel on board to keep batteries (and if needed passengers) warm. It would still be a huge improvement in renewable energy use if only the flying was done so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: EbS-P

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
7,087
Downeast Maine
My point is that a concern was noted (battery performance vs weather). That that concern is far worse for planes (because I'm sorry, but heat pumps at -50 F don't really work, and resistive heat drains too much) than for cars.

On the more positive side, I could imagine a plane that flies on electric energy, but has a little (bio-?) carbon-based fuel on board to keep batteries (and if needed passengers) warm. It would still be a huge improvement in renewable energy use if only the flying was done so.
I don't think these electric planes are flying at the same altitude as commercial airliners.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,548
SE North Carolina
I’m think we will see more of small manufacturers using bigger companies tech. As long as the big dog does not see them as competition.