Time for a new stove or not?

[Green Energy]

I have had a cast iron Consolidated Dutchwest, Sequoyah, 455C for about 19 years. My first and only wood stove. It has served me well. I have used it through out the winters for about 15 of those 19 winters and moved it into a different house 5 years ago. I usually burning it continuously from Thanksgiving to early March, with a few breaks when the weather warms up into the upper fourties and fifities. Replaced some door gaskets and I have to lube the external fan annually, but not much other problems. Glass front door never stays clean, but have gotten used to that. Other than that, no real complaints. I also carefully ran water over the catalytic converter (CC) at the beginning of each season to clean the ash off. Other than that, all the other maintenance was in cleaning the chimney and flue pipe going through the block off plate.

Last couple days, I notices that the stove was smelling and getting smoke in the house. The draft seemed to be fine when I openned the bypass damper. However, I was concerned that I was not getting the proper draft with the CC engaged. I figured I better check the catalytic convert. Sure enough, it was about a third collapesed/crumbling and partially blocking the top of the fire box flue passage. So I removed the CC and am operating the stove without a CC. I assume that is ok except for it being less efficient and more polluting. Stove season is almost over for me.

The questions that I would like help from the experts here are:

Is this stove worth spending the money on to get a new CC, about $200, as compared with the new stove techology now available?

If so, what other repairs should I expect or initiate? (I know I need a new fan, because disassembling it to lube the bearings will eventually not be enough). The stove does not seem to be close to air tight and it is not just the door gaskets.

Any other advice as to making the decision about whether to repair or buy another stove?

I really have liked this stove as it will keep a fire over night or while I am at work without a problem. Also, the cast iron is a great thermal mass, but a royal pain to move. A couple drawbacks are that the stove uses a 8 inch flue and I would have a problem with getting an 8 in chimmey liner through the chimney damper plate. It looks like a six inch will work fine. So I just use a oval flex and a block off plate and dump the flue gas into the chimmey with the draft being fine. However, it makes cleaning the chimey and disassembling the flue a chore. Also the stove is on the large size for my fire place/hearth. The side door does not open all the way. So I have been thinking about getting a new stove, but not too excite about the cost and trouble. Any advice is appreciated.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

hey , that old girl is a BEAST!! great old stove , as for retiring her, its going to depend on which way you want to go. rebuilding a cast stove providing there is no damage to integral parts is doable, though its work. replacing the cat would likley bring her back to her former glory in the performance department (providing seam leakage isnt too severe) but a total rebuild would be the do all end all like new fix. disadvantages with an 8 inch flue are what they are , decreasing to a 6 wouldnt be a good idea with a cat stove , they need draw to perform and restriction would be detrimental to that. the newer technology will give some gains over an old "smoke dragon" a huge difference, but a cat equipped stove like that one the difference may not be as extreme.

as for burning without the cat , i'd recommend not making a habit of it. cat stoves in general are designed to provide a lower slower burn to feed the cat which provides that great heat you get from it, so burning without one is doing somthing the stove really isnt designed to do well the same low smoky fire which makes a cat stove work so well with a cat in it , works against you when its not installed. keep a close eye on your chimney and cap as you are no longer burning away the nasty stuff which can build in your flue.

i hope you find this helpful, and not take it as a scolding, just a bit of information with your best interest at heart. even if you end up replacing the unit , you can feel secure that the unit definately has given you more than you paid for as far as service. those old dutch's were always impressive to me. nice piece, good to see she gave you all she had for a long time.

 

[snowtime]

My take is if you love projects and are handy then by all means consider a full rebuild. If there are any seam leaks make sure to tear it all down and do it right. I am thinking 19years you should do a full rebuild. You clearly like this stove so the motivation to do a good rebuild is there. The only issue is if there is a possibility that non EPA stoves will be outlawed in your area. If there has been any talk of that in your area papers then I would not spend the time and money on the old stove.

If you have no problem with finances and do not cherish a rebuild then a new [over 3cuft] EPA would be the ticket. You have to do your homework as there are many types and not all big stoves act or heat alike.

 

[Green Energy]

Thanks for the insight and advice. I need to research what is involved with rebuilding "the old girl." I don't want to get in over my head. I have done enough auto mechanics to know how to break loose old bolts and screws. Also, enough auto projects to know what a pain some of them can be when you can not break loose the bolts (i.e., exhaust system replacements). I now try to buy cars that don't require as much maintenance as my 60's vintage GMs and Fords. Also, I tend to pay the mechanic more that undertake it myself. Any resources you can recommend on how to rebuild a Dutchwest Sequoyiah 455 or similar cast iron stove?

I also need to research whether there are "experts" around my neck of the woods who can do a rebuild as pay for service. Rather pay a few hundred to have someone who knows what they are doing. Although most of my handy skills have come through bumbling through projects, sometimes with a manual or a book.

I am also going to research the new stoves. It sounds like the new non cat technology has come a long way.

Thanks for the advice, Sean

 

[Backwoods Savage]

And the cat technology evidently also has come a long way Sean. Welcome to the forum.

I do wonder about using water on the cat for cleaning. All we do is use an old paint brush to brush the fly ash off. That should be all the cat needs.

It also won't harm anything to run the stove without the cat but as you stated, it will not be as efficient.

A 19 year old stove does need to be checked over very thoroughly but rather or not you need to replace it will be your call.

Good luck.

 

[yukiginger]

Sean, if you have the means I say spend the money on a new stove and liner. Your stove paid for itself how long ago????? (So don't feel guilty about retiring her.) Most stoves have good airwash systems now so if you burn them right, and have proper draft, your glass stays relatively clean. Get one large enough for overnight burns (2.5 cu. ft. or larger). If you aren't familiar with the leading brands do some research on this site to check them out. All manufacturers have nice sites, too, these days. If you want to stay catalytic how about a Woodstock Fireview?

MarkG

 

[Green Energy]

Dennis, On using water to clean the cat, I believe that is what my Dutchwest owners manual said to do as the annual maintenace. It was a long time a go when I read it and just got it to the annual ritual of running tap water through the honeycomb cat after the chimney cleaning. The original cat lasted through 15 winters of service. So I guess the water did not hurt it.

Mark, Thanks for the ecouragement about researching the new stoves. Before I undertake a rebuild, I am going to research the new stoves. I was actually thinking about a new stove at the beginning of this winter when I scoped out what it would take to put in a chimney liner and found that it was going to be a pain to install the 8 in needed to accomodate my Dutchwest, but that my chimney damper could work with a six in much easiler, hence the need for a new stove if I was going to install a chimney liner. The failure of the cat might just be enough to push me. Yep, I did get my moneys worth out of the old girl. Also, my wife loves the heat as I am too cheap to keep the thermostat up to run the furnace beyond 65.

Sean

 

[begreen]

If there are no serious issues, I'm going to guestimate that it may cost about $250-400 to get the old girl up to good burning condition. It'll cost at least 6 to 7 times that to get a new cat stove of decent size. From the description, it sounds like the cat may have died. You can try pickling the cat in a vinegar water mix to see if it can be resurrected to finish the season. (see link below)If not, I'd be tempted to get a new cat now and finish out the season.

This summer, I'd pull the stove into the shop, clean it out and blow it out completely with compressed air. That will help expose seams that need resealing. Give the bypass damper and its linkage assembly a close inspection for too much play or warping of the damper. Then you can decide whether you want to rebuild. If the stove is like many, it may only take removing the nuts on 4 corner threaded rods to pop it apart. With a good, exploded parts diagram, rebuilding a stove is not as hard as it may sound. Once she's back together, she should again operate well for years. If you decide not to tear it apart, you can probably sell it for the price of the combuster.

Here's a link about cat converter pickling:
http://www.ruralvermont.com/vermontweathervane/issues/winter/96011/dthomas96011.shtml

 

[Green Energy]

Thanks for the tips on cleaning the cat and starting the rebuild. THe old cat is half to 3/4 disinergrated into a hundred fragments. After 19 years, I am suprised it lasted that long. Maybe if I followed the vinegar water procedure, instead of running tap water through it, it would have lasted longer. But I am happy it lasted as long as it did. I did notice in the last year or two that its performance was off alittle. Harder to get it to fire at 400 to 500 F. But once firing, it would still get the 2nd combustion up to the 800 to 1,000 F range.

I think I still have all the docs that came with the stove, including the exploded parts diagram. I'll clean it out and consider the rebuild. It is suppose to be 80 to 85 percent efficient in optimum burn. So I don't think a new stove can get much better than that, without condensing the flue gas (which I want to avoid).

So the choice for me will come down to the whether the new stoves have more convinences such as quicker to get a fire up to a hot, clean burn, easier to clean and maintain, and whether the 6 in chimney liner that I can use with a new stove is that much of a time saver when it comes to annual chimney maintenance. Also, if I want to come up with the $2-3K that it would take to buy the new stove and chimney liner versus the $500 to rebuild the stove and buy a new cat and blower.

Thanks everyone for your advice. I appeciate the knowlegable and help people that make this forum such a great resource.

Sean

 

[begreen]

Oh jeez, I was figuring you were at least on your second combuster by now. Get a new one in and be happy. Unless you're looking at basic (non-cat) steel stoves, the stove alone will likely be $2-3K. Re-piping could be another $600-1000.

 

[Highbeam]

At least take a look at the modern version of your stove. VC/dutchwest still makes them and they still use the 8" flue on the biggest one but not the medium and small. Since you are using happily using a large stove now, going to a smaller stove will be a negative thing and cat technology hasn't changed much at all as far as I can tell so you can't assume that a modern cat stove of a smaller size will heat better or longer than your current stove. All modern large cat stoves require an 8" flue.

You said,
"A couple drawbacks are that the stove uses a 8 inch flue and I would have a problem with getting an 8 in chimmey liner through the chimney damper plate. It looks like a six inch will work fine."

Why do you think that you need to put a liner in? Is your existing chimney unsafe? Many many people use their masonry chimney flues with great results. Yes, a liner might make it even better but certainly not a requirement for a good burning stove.

Please post up some pictures of the old girl and the chimney. We love to see those oldies but goodies.

 

[Green Energy]

Thanks for your insights on the larger stoves and cat technolgy. The only problem with my 8 " flue pipe is that to clean the system, I have to disconnect and remove the stove from the pipe, take out the block off plate, and remove the pipe to clean it. It is a 8", oval flex stainless steel pipe that is about 5 feet tall, reaches where the smoke chamber tappers up to the chimney. The chimney is a standard 9x9" tile lined brick chimney about 20 down to the top of the smoke chamber.

I was hoping that with the chinney liner, I could just run the chimney brush all the way down to the bottom of the flue pipe and dump the scrapings out the bottom clean out.

Because disassmbling the flue pipe and block off plate and removing every thing is such a chore, sometimes I skip a year and just clean the chimney and open the bottom clean out to collect the scraping. I figure, I get more creosote build up in the chimney than in the five foot flex pipe, given the flue pipe stays hotter than the chimney. Some of the scrapings fall outside the flex pipe on the block off plate and the smoke shelve. I know that I should not compromise safety. However, it seems to have worked for about two cycles of one year the full cleaning and one year for the chimney only cleaning. When I do the full cleaning, I usually get about 4" to 6" of cresote in a paper shopping bag (8x18"), including cleaning out the smoke shelve. With the chimney-only cleaning, I get about half that amount. When I do the full cleaning, I reach up and clean out the smoke shelve where some of the creosote collected from the previous year's chimney-only cleaning. Also, when I take the pipe out, it is usually not too coated with creosote, sometimes to the point where I am tempted to go a couple years with cleaning the chimney only.

So one reason I was looking at the new stove set up was to be able to saving on the time and trouble of the annual chimney cleaning (not having to dissemble the flue pipe/blockoff plate assemble). However, IF the stoves with the 6" flues won't give me a good overnight burn, then that is a big enough drawback that I might not want to go to a stove with a six inch flue. But what I am really trying to get away from is having to pull by flue pipe and block off plate out every other year, or every year (if that is what I should be doing).

I'll get some pics and post them with another post. Although I can only show the pipe below the block off plate. The pics will show that I only have about five inches of clearance on either side of the stove and about three or four inches above the stove. The stove is about 3/4 out on the hearth, about 1/4 in the fireplace. Those clearances is what makes disassembling and removing everything such a chore. Thanks for the advice. Sean

 

[Todd]

What about an 8" ovalized liner to the top? Many do this if round doesn't fit. It sounds like the stove has served you very well. Very impressive that the cat lasted that long. They are only suppose to last 3-6 years.

 

[begreen]

6" or 8" liner size has nothing to do with overnight burn. That's more a matter of firebox capacity and how the fuel is burned.

Can your stove be connected rear vent instead of top? If so, I'd put a full liner in, transitioning to oval at the bottom if necessary, and terminate in an 8" oval clean-out tee behind the stove. Then connect with a short pipe off the tee to the stove. That would make it much easier to clean. The stove would need to come forward on the hearth a foot or so, and perhaps the hearth would need an extension, but that could be a good thing. With the stove moved out of the fireplace, and more into the room, it will heat better.

 

[CrappieKeith]

Sean, if you have the means I say spend the money on a new stove and liner. Your stove paid for itself how long ago????? (So don't feel guilty about retiring her.) Most stoves have good airwash systems now so if you burn them right, and have proper draft, your glass stays relatively clean. Get one large enough for overnight burns (2.5 cu. ft. or larger). If you aren't familiar with the leading brands do some research on this site to check them out. All manufacturers have nice sites, too, these days. If you want to stay catalytic how about a Woodstock Fireview?

MarkG

Give her the private burial she deserves and upgrade.
Chances are ther are no parts around anymore and why risk you & your family's safety?

 

[Green Energy]

Thanks for all the advice. I get too busy and it is hard to get back to the bulletin board. So this message is very late.

I tried attaching a couple pics, and I think I got them past the error messages. First too large, then the wrong file type. The stove has a 45o discharge so that the coupling pipe can make it either an horizonal discharge or a vertical discharge depending on how the connection is mounted.

I appreciate the suggestion of using an 8" oval chimney liner. However, I don't think the oval will fit down my 9"x9" chimney. At least, the oval that I have going up through the block off plate and smoke damper plate does not fit up into the 9x9 chimney. So it is either continue to have the pipe go up about 3' and use the chimney, air chisel out the smoke damper to allow for an 8" circular liner, or change to a stove that has a 6" flue so I can get a 6" liner through the smoke damper.

I just inspecting the chimney cap. After burning a couple weeks with no cat, I was amazed at how gunked up the chimney cap and chimney were. I realized that it was also probably because my cat was not working at 100% through out the winter and this was our coldest winter since about '97. But the creosote was about twice as bad as I have ever seen. So burning this stove w/o a cat is not an option.

I am leaning towards the rebuild. I think I will try tearing it down and resealing it. If I feel I am successful, I will then buy a replacement cat and a new blower. If the rebuild works, then I stay with the 3' section of 8" oval going through the block off plate and using the clay tile chimney.

Thanks for the discussion, I'll let you all know what I end up with. But given that it feels like spring around here, 60-70 F the last two days, the urgency has receded. I need to focus more on getting my cord wood cut and split for next winter. So it may not be till later in the summer that I get back to the stove. By then, I will have a chance to research new stoves as well.

Regards,

Sean

 

[Green Energy]

Well it looks like the Federal Tax credit is helping push me to choose the new stove route. I have been looking for a new stove (or insert) and have a very questions. First let me state some things I would need:


Stove needs to sit partly in the fire place opening, most on the hearth (do not want to have stove pipe go up from the stove and into the wall. I need to take the flue through the chimney smoke damper, probably will install new 6" chimney flex liner.)

Fire place opening is limited: 27" high, 37" wide, fireplace is 21" deep, hearth is 20" wide. I can install non-combustible tiles in front of hearth.)

Need a 6" flue, ash tray, 8 to 10 hour overnight/at-work burn. My old stove (Consolidated Dutchwest Sequoyah 455C, pictured above) I can stick a couple wooden closet poles under and roll out of the way to clean out remove the direct vent and clean out the chimney. It would be nice to be able to have a flat bottom, with no greater than 24" height so that I can roll the stove/insert out for maintenance.

Also, I want a good quality stove that will last for 15 years without a lot of expensive maintenance. My cat stove lasted 20 years, 15 or so seasons of heat (late Nov through early Mar). The original cat last till last year.

I looked at the Jotal Olso 500. It looks like it is hard to move, no flat bottom. I would need the short legs. I think I could locate the whole stove out on the hearth, with the back of the stove at the opening to the fire place, but it might still be hard to clean out the chimney liner without moving the stove. Also, a little on the expensive side, but I am willing to pay the $2k for the stove if it is worth the quality, features, and compared with cheaper models. (How do you move this thing around on legs?)

It does NOT look like the Pacific Energy or Blazer King models I was looking at have ash trays. Since I like to keep a continual burn for weeks or months, no ash tray is not a option for me.

Are there other brands and models that anyone on would recommend I consider?

Thanks, Sean

 

[begreen]

Hey Sean. Have you looked at the Buck 80 cat stove? Seems like it may have most of what you are looking for and can be fireplace installed.

Here's a link to their manuals.
(broken link removed to http://www.buckstove.com/stovemanuals.html)