Trouble again first the VC now the upstairs fire place? UPDATE

[struggle]

Since everyone was so helpfull with my VC Vigilant rebuild a new problem has appeared. Our home was built in 84 and the upstairs Cozy Heat fireplace has a problem. One of the blower fans is now clunking after it runs for an extened time. Sometimes it will vibrate as well.

Since it is clear one needs replacing (I will replace both) The question is are there some fans better than others in build quality? The reason I ask is it is not easy to get to them. Our fire place is completely encased in Cherokee Marble from top to bottom and I will have to remove via a punch and chisel all the grout thin set etc and remove the lower vertical blocks at which the blowers sit behind. Then I have to figure out how to reinstall them with out it looking all hacked up as I am sure they were installed before the main mantle peice was set down on top. SO after all this is done I want to be sure I am install ing the best fans possible. Ball bearings instead of bushings etc.

If you know where to get such fans it would be of great help. They are the longer squirrel type ones. When spotting them with a flash light you can see the cage of them spinning. Will altimately know better when I get them out in hand. Might start tonight on the grout.

 

[struggle]

(broken link removed to http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b148/struggle_/DCP_2026.jpg)

This picture is the fire place. The fans are behind the lower vertical blocks.

 

[Gooserider]

That sounds like an awfully difficult way to access what should be a "service" item, as those fans should be accessible for cleaning maintainance, etc.

Do you have a manual, or can you get one to see if there might be a less invasive way to get to the fans? Remember also that a box has 6+ sides, are you sure there isn't some other access means provided, or that you might be able to get at the fans from some other direction (say coming through the ceiling in the room under the fireplace?)

That is a nice looking installation, and I hate to think of you needing to tear it up to get at those fans as it will be a bear to not have the repair show when you put it back together.

Gooserider

 

[Harley]

The fans are behind the lower vertical blocks.

I'm missing something (but I do very often). By lower verticle Blocks, do you mean the ones on the face of the hearth? The verticles above the mantle almost look like they are spaced for venting, but that could be just the picture.

Very nice looking setup by the way. I agree... there should be someway better to access those fans rather than knocking out stone. I'd be real nervous about getting it back together and having it look as good as it does now

 

[Hogwildz]

If the fans are behind the lower hearth vertical blocks, and its hollow under the hearth top, I would loosen the top of the hearth and get to the fans from there. Then you could leave the hearth top loose laid in its place, and just have to slide it off for future maintenance. Taking those verticals out will be a chore, and may still need to loosen hearth top. Alot of work, I agree with the others, there has to be a way to maintenance the fans.

 

[GVA]

This is a link here for you and anyone else that needs Blowers for gas furnace draft inducers wood stoves pellet stoves etc... Better quality than grainger.
Not sure what's in the PDF here that you click on but I have the master catalog at work and it covers just about every HVAC unit known to man. Let me know if you need another company name.
Moved to next post

 

[struggle]

I have the Cozy Heat manual for it. This set up I believe is pretty unique in how it was done. The basement is completely finished below it and the Woodstove is below it. The chimney is completely concrete and there is no access to the heated area other than though the front bottom vent (vertical blocks). To the left of the fireplace there is wood storage box that is accessible from the outside and it has a trap door in that box but when I have looked down it there is no access to go under the fire place area. It is just a pit below the storage and I all one can see is the concrete block that supports the entire chimney.

The air is sucked in at the lower vents and comes out at the top. The whole entire mass heats up and will cook one out of the house if used for extend times. It in some sense is like a soapstone stove I would guess as it takes two hours before it starts throwing real heat out the top vents but when it does it holds it for a long time. The next morning it will still (blocks) be warm to the touch.

I am not reallyy concerned to much about being able to reset the blocks as I have worked with ceramic tile and grouting. I just want to make sure the fans are of top notch quality so I nerve have to do this again. The other alternative would be to have a custom serviceable access put in place but am unsure of how it would change the looks.

Since the heat cavity is enclosed I am unsure how there would be another point of entry to the fans. They sit right behind the lower blocks.

I would hate to have to pay to reconstruct an entire chimney like this now days. I cannot imagine who much it would cost.

These fans lasted a lot years so If I can get 20 out the next set this seesm not that bad.

 

[struggle]

If the fans are behind the lower hearth vertical blocks, and its hollow under the hearth top, I would loosen the top of the hearth and get to the fans from there. Then you could leave the hearth top loose laid in its place, and just have to slide it off for future maintenance. Taking those verticals out will be a chore, and may still need to loosen hearth top. Alot of work, I agree with the others, there has to be a way to maintenance the fans.

I have though about going in that way. The though of how heavy that tops is scares me. I am guessing that the the marble top is of substantial weight.

Math magicians figure the weight? Top hearth peice is 80" long 16" deap and 2.5" thick. My biggest concern about doing this way is the possiblity of the top breaking? That would be unreplaceable as a match to the stone.

 

[DiscoInferno]

I've bought a few blowers from here:
http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/fireplace.htm

None have failed yet (~4 years).

 

[GVA]

My link is not what it should be..... they don't have many listed here. I'll work on it
This is catalog of stock motors Blowers pages 19-29
http://www.aosmithmotors.com/html/products/catalogpdf.html
And heres the main page for just about any type of motor made... for anyone who may need any type of motor
http://www.aosmithmotors.com/html/products/productLiterature.html

 

[struggle]

Today I went to our local stone/tile installer that is based in our little town. They do many high end installs of anything to do with stone.

It was very apparent they did not want to even discuss coming over to my house to look at my situation. The guy there on hand was running a CNC machine so he was not exactly available at the time. But here is what he said. If I tried to move the top he would almost bet it would break.

So I went ahead and drilled the mortar out from the front two center blocks and they came out fairly easy (ten in all). Here is what I found. The motor sits in the middle ( I thought there was two motors). I found lots of conrete left behind (chunks) setting against the 2X4s that the motor is attached too. Looking closer after cleaning with the shop vac in that area I am able to tell that the base which this unit sits on is not really secrued down good. It sits on (3, 2X4s) so Id rilled a couple of 3" screws through them to the floor to tighten that down. Then I realize they never screwed the motor brackets down to the 2X4 This cannot be right? So I screwed one on the front and back down. Test run the motor. A lot of the vibration is gone now. BUt when the fan is turned on high speed it vibrates rather bad. Bearings on the end of the left cage is bad. Motor seems great.

So those that might now. Can one go and buy bearings for these units or is it a replace the whole unit as one peice. I think I can reach far enough with my hand that I can remove the two crews on each end and remove the unit with just two blocks out in the center and then service the bearings and reinstall.

Anyone know if it is possible to service the bearings?

 

[Gooserider]

Glad you were able to get in without to much problems - Not sure I totally understand your setup though, are you saying you have a motor driving the two blower cages with a belt? Or are the blowers hanging off a shaft on each end of the motor? How many blower cages are there? Are the cages in some sort of shrouds, or are they just sitting in a hollow space? Just where are the bearings in relation to the blower cages?

At any rate, if you can get the bearings out, it is quite likely that your local industrial bearing house should be able to come up with a replacement, especially if it's a ball bearing type item. If it's a "lifetime" sleeve bearing, that may be more of a challenge, but still possible. You would probably need to get out whatever part the bearing is mounted in, and either press out the sleeve and have a new one pressed in, or some such.

Even if the rest of the parts in there look good, I would consider trying to replace any other bearings, belts or other wear items on the "while it's open" principle, but that's a judgement call.

Gooserider

 

[begreen]

That's a beautiful installation Struggle. i can see why you want to keep it looking sharp.

Without seeing the part it's hard to say, but an electric motor shop may be able to press in new bearings on the fans. But after looking at the install I would replace the whole fan assembly. What does Cozy want for a replacement fan? Can you get any specific model information off of the old fan?

If not, get specific measurements for the fans and go to (broken link removed). Look for ball bearing motor units if available and if the fan is variable speed, it probably should be a shaded pole motor..

My guess is that you want something like this:
(broken link removed)

 

[GVA]

Pull it out first and look at it... it could just have crap on the blades throwing it out of balance.

I would say you have the bronze bearings in there and if those "lifetime" bearings are worn than your motor is at the end of it's life........20 plus years is a good run Personaly I'd replace it.

 

[Hogwildz]

I agree with GVA, you went to all this trouble, don't want to do it again, replace the whole blower & be done with it. No brainer to me. Just my opinion though.

 

[struggle]

I will try to address all the questions. The manual list a fan kit #234F I will search that but am doubtfull anything will come of it.

There is one motor (daul shaft output on each side) that sits in the center and has a blower cage on both sides. The cages are open on the top and it shoots the air out the bottom of the cages and into the lower plenum air space below the fireplace. I will try to post a picture link tomorrow if can of what you can see know as it sits. While running the fans if I push on the end of the shaft it slides over a little bit and then will vibrate. I am going to try and find a replacement as a whole unit if I can since it would be a hassle if the motor gave out and the bearing were replaced on the ends.

I was surprised that once I got the two blocks out directly in front of the blower motor that it was never screwed down to the support 2X4.

The fan is running right now as I am having daul problems as the woodstove chimney is giving me fits with water drippping when runnning that and since we are currently of the gas grid (by choice) I am reluctant to take the blower out on the fireplace until I am sure I have a replacement on hand. If not any something goes a miss then I will have to call the gas man to turn the meter back on (that could send chills down any woodburners back). In two days I will fire up the woodstove again.

It is surprising to me how well this fireplace heats the house. I am sure right now it is around 80 degrees now upstairs. Once that mass of stone heats up it really holds it for a long time.

One thing I did notice is now that I can put my hand on the blower motor it is to hot to touch after running for a while. NOt sure if it should be that hot? Part of the blower appears to have an internal fan built into it on the one side of the shaft. Motor has 1 1/18 hp on the sticker.

Thanks for the compliment on it.

The grangier link would be close is that was an open desing instead of enclolsed cages.

I completely cleaned the cages of with a brush and vacumm. The unit is working better but I feel it should be replaced since I am having to take blocks out.

 

[begreen]

Sounds kind of like a transflow blower. Take a look at this site's page to see if you can locate one similar.

http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/fireplace.htm

 

[struggle]

You could have knocked me over with a feather. I called the Kozy Heat dealer which I found out after stopping there yestreday and called them with the type of fireplace I have and they have a blower onhand they think for it. The unit is 24 years old but from the description he said it looks like what I have.

Also I see Kozy Heat on there website still builds the fireplace we have(#234). 130,000 BTUs they claim. I always knew it was a heating beast but not that much though.

Also after looking at the motor today I see right on the motor it point to two slots to oil.......hmmmmmmmmm........maybe just maybe this motor would have lasted longer had it been able to be serviced and cleaned. After talking to the wife it is looking like I might get a grate made for the bottom so it can be serviced and cleaned. This might be harder than I think though as it my be some odd size.

If the new motor works I am going to see if I can build a heat shield and try to set up half of the blower to run on the downstairs woodstove in some way if I can replace a bearing on it to stop the vibration.