Trying to be realistic - about the prices of masonry heaters, etc.

[elkimmeg]

Over the past few months I have observed numerous recommendations for masonry heaters, although a great way to heat a home. I feel this poster has missed the mark.
Most are inquiring about a $2000 stove . Telling them to purchase an $18,000 massive concrete /stove alternative is off base. That’s only the cost of the installation not including the support base to hold it up possibly incorporating part of the concrete foundation is needed to support tons of masonry mass the space constraints also have to be considered it could end up costing 25k I wish we all had that kind of money for this option but most don’t it works best at the planning stages of new construction It would be a very costly retro remodeling fit

Another common myth is expounded all too often the 2 cu ft fire box is needed to burn 8 hours for years I got decent heat out of a modern stove that did not have that large a fire box but 1.75 cu ft It burned clean effectively and efficiently Many Osburn 1800’s will burn close to 8 productive hours with a 1.8 cu ft firebox. I agree a larger firebox will burn longer but the airflow is engineered as such to allow even smaller firebox stoves to perform well coming close to that 8 hours burn. Think of the little engine that could.

I think we all have to measure success differently and be realistic wood stoves are space heaters they do not create airflows designed to reach remote bedrooms. I do not subscribe to overheating one uncomfortably out of an area, that residual heat makes it to bedrooms.

To some if the stove can carry the heating load to 10 degrees that could be success enough. To size a stove for once a year or a cold night once in 20 years is overkill.

Even home heating systems are designed to maintain 72 degrees when it is zero out in New England climate zone.

I believe it is best to match the stove that will accomplish realistic goals a stove that can be run efficiently. Over sizing it does not insure efficient operations

I mean I saw a post recommendation for a masonry heater in a 320 sq ft cabin. The heater would cost more that the Cabin

 

[DiscoInferno]

Another common myth is expounded all too often the 2 cu ft fire box is needed to burn 8 hours for years I got decent heat out of a modern stove that did not have that large a fire box but 1.75 cu ft It burned clean effectively and efficiently Many Osburn 1800’s will burn close to 8 productive hours with a 1.8 cu ft firebox. I agree a larger firebox will burn longer but the airflow is engineered as such to allow even smaller firebox stoves to perform well coming close to that 8 hours burn. Think of the little engine that could.

Well, hats off to you and Osburn, because even with a firebox completely stuffed with black locust my 2cf Ultima will not be giving off much useful heat past 5 or 6 hours even on the lowest air setting. There will still be plenty of coals at 8, 9, 10 hours, but not much productive heat; even the room with the stove will cool down. Mind you, it's hard to actually get anything approaching a real 2cf of wood into a "2cf" firebox (and only about 1.5 is under the baffle), and perhaps my splits are too small and my 25'+ chimney drafts a little too well. But I had kind of gathered that my experience was typical here, at least for a non-cat, non-soapstone stove. I don't need 3.5cf, certainly, but 2.5cf would be nice.

 

[elkimmeg]

Like many post I present, it is open to discussion ,one size does not fit all I think we all agree to size a stove for real world conditions ,which means 25 to 33% more than manufacture claims.

You may be right ,with your draft requiring an in line damper to slow the draft down and prolong your burn time.

I really think it is a combination of a well designed secondary air control (thermatically controled) working in unison witha Cat combustor the gives smaller fire boxes longer burn times

 

[MrGriz]

I really think it is a combination of a well designed secondary air control (thermatically controled) working in unison witha Cat combustor the gives smaller fire boxes longer burn times

Now I'm confused. I don't believe the Osburn 1800 has either a Cat or thermatically controled secondary air.....

I agree that one size does not fit all, and that bigger is not always necessary or even a good idea when it comes to a stove or insert. There are also a number of factors other than size to consider when selecting the right stove for the job. The size and more importantly the layout of the space to be heated, the chimney set up, the goals of the user and I'm sure I'm leaving out a number of other things.

I think our zeal to help someone with a question sometimes leads to a quick response without considering all the facts. In fact, if you look at the first response of a few of the veterains here to the inevitable "what stove should I buy question", you see them asking questions rather than offering a quick solution.

Elk's point is a good one. The less than 2.0 cu ft firebox has it's place, just like a gassification boiler or masonry heater does. The ideal solution might also be one that is out of financial reach or one that just doesn't make sense. The masonry heater, for example, might be a good option for someone in the design stages of a home that has the right layout, making it an option. It also might be the cat's butt in an existing application, but the cost and effort of retrofitting the structure put it out of the picture. It's a matter of evaluating the situation and suggesting workable options.

 

[Gooserider]

I am an advocate for the MH's as the concept to me seems like an excellent one, but I agree with Elk that they are not always appropriate. I think they are a good idea to consider in NEW construction, but don't think they are a good retrofit candidate in most cases. OTOH, if one is putting in a centrally located masonry fireplace, I see no reason not to make it an MH instead - The numbers I've seen suggest that an MH is very expensive when considered on it's own, but if one is already planning a masonry fireplace, the MH is a relatively inexpensive upgrade that would be a big increase in efficiency, plus the other advantages like having the ability to include a bake oven in the structure, along with heat exchangers for radiant floor heating and / or DHW

In the case of the cabin you mentioned, I believe the poster was talking about wanting to build a masonry fireplace anyway, which is why I suggested the upgrade - and gave reasons not to want it as well... I also tried to get him to think in terms of locating the stove and stack internally rather than against an outside wall.

However I do agree that an MH needs to be seen in the correct perspective - sometimes they can be worth considering just to get "out of the box" thought processes going.

As to the stove size question, I just know that we seem to get far more "it's to small" complaints than we do oversize issues - thus I tend to encourage thinking bigger. I also don't think 7 hours of heat and getting up cold or having to get up early to feed the stove and then going back to bed is a great approach compared to 8+ hours of real heat... Thus I will probably continue to suggest the 2 cf firebox (Which I would consider the Osborn to be in that class, albeit on the light side)

Gooserider

 

[BrotherBart]

I prefer the big firebox as much for the fact that it gives me a little working room in there as for the burn times. And on the best stove packing day of a person's life they are going to be doing well to get more than 1.5 cubic feet of wood splits into a 1.75 foot firebox stacked East/West. Not even considering the space taken up by the coal bed and ash. And the max BTUs of 1.5 cubic feet is the max BTUs of 1.5 cubic feet no matter what contraptions you have on the stove.

 

[DiscoInferno]

Like many post I present, it is open to discussion ,one size does not fit all I think we all agree to size a stove for real world conditions ,which means 25 to 33% more than manufacture claims.

You may be right ,with your draft requiring an in line damper to slow the draft down and prolong your burn time.

I really think it is a combination of a well designed secondary air control (thermatically controled) working in unison witha Cat combustor the gives smaller fire boxes longer burn times

I agree that secondary air control and the cat would help a lot. My burn times are probably reduced because way too much wood is burned in the first hour or two; even though the primary is basically off the (fixed) secondary provides a lot of air and a pretty roaring fire. But without the cat, I need it going pretty good to fully shut down the primary; otherwise it snuffs right out (so I know my air control is working and my seals are tight). This actually matches BIS's literature - they show a temperature bar graph for an overnight burn that starts at 800 degrees in the first hour, drops to about 575 for hours 2 and 3, and then is less than 400 by hour 4 and less than 300 by hour 7. Temps under 300-400 simply don't heat much. I assume a cat and a controlled secondary or a greater thermal mass (soapstone) would help even that out some.

Despite my complaining nature, I knew when I bought the unit that it probably wouldn't really burn 8-12 hours (they only claim 6-8), and depending on which literature you look at it's only rated for somewhere between 1000-2000sqft (I'm heating 2000), so frankly it has exceeded expectations in some ways. But it seems only fair to warn new stove buyers that claim they want long overnight burns that the "standard" non-cat, non-controlled secondary, non-soapstone EPA stove needs to be somewhat larger than 2cf for that.

 

[webbie]

A lot of folks spend $8,000 on a masonry fireplace, then 3,000 or more on an installed insert later.....to these folks, a masonry heater would have looked good!

Others spend 20 grand on furniture for one room, or on tools for a workshop where they pursue a hobby.

I rarely think of fire as "heat for the $$", but as an enhancement in life style and an indication of certain values.

I would definitely consider a masonry heater if I had the place for it and was going to be in a home for the rest of my days (15+ years, etc.)...

But there are also a number of "in-betweens" - such as using the built-in units from Magnum and Kozy and surrounding them with masonry. Take some design hints from the pros and build the whole thing inside the house envelope......the masonry will complement the heat. This can be done to a lesser degree with zero clearance built-ins - surround them with some mass!

Then there are the Tulikis, which as I remember were 5K to 9K or so.

I guess it depends on how the stock market is doing, interest rates, windfalls (inheritances, lottery, etc.) - if the budget allows, there are always more options.

 

[webbie]

BTW, by acting as the GC, getting the permits, and doing other arrangements, I think I could retrofit a MH for about 15K. But Elk is right - if I had to simply pay all the costs, 20K+ for a retrofit is more like it.

 

[KeithO]

This guy built a russian fireplace (also a masonry heater) for $1000 (broken link removed)

If one sticks with a proven design and does it DIY it can be done for a reasonable price. I agree that the home plan has to be suitable, because as much as I want one, it would be a huge PITA fitting one in my existing house.

I have been looking for information on this project http://mha-net.org/docs/v8n2/wildac04a.htm because it looks like a really simple masonry heater that won't weigh 2 tons or more

Keith

 

[elkimmeg]

This guy built a russian fireplace (also a masonry heater) for $1000 (broken link removed)

If one sticks with a proven design and does it DIY it can be done for a reasonable price. I agree that the home plan has to be suitable, because as much as I want one, it would be a huge PITA fitting one in my existing house.

I have been looking for information on this project http://mha-net.org/docs/v8n2/wildac04a.htm because it looks like a really simple masonry heater that won't weigh 2 tons or more

Keith

Keith before you get any ideas this fails so many ways to sunday, It would take me pages to explain. You bet it was done without a permit. No mention of support of additional weight where the hearth supports the crtiical mass And I doubt it work remotely as well as he is claiming remember it on an exterior wall What a bunch of BS Total BS andit only cost him $1000 for that BS

 

[webbie]

He probably lives in an unincorporated area in East Tennessee.....might be no inspector to be found anywhere!

Never the less, it is impossible from afar to see exactly what the situation is, but it does appear that he is a relatively careful guy - has clean-outs, room for expansion in the door, etc. - Since it is in Tn, it is relatively warm (as he mentions) - he also mentions that he built on top of existing foundation which looked quite substantial (in his view).

Whatever the case, he did it for $1,000 with materials left over - OK, so maybe it would cost $2,000 or $3,000 or even $5,000 with some help and some additional work and materials - point being that it does not have to cost 25K.

I cheer the guy for his attempt at doing a decent job - I have seen a LOT worse.

 

[BrotherBart]

If I still had a slab foundation I would be collecting materials right now. When I was living in the house on the slab I was burning really efficient and safe. Franklin stove on mortared bricks on top of carpet with wood paneling right behind it. Top of the line burning in 1977.

Larry, Moe and Curly from the stove store did the straight up pipe install. Before I moved I went up and found charred joists in the attic around the pipe.

And yes, it was permitted and inspected. Inspector thought it was great.

 

[KeithO]

See the attached costing from Maine Wood Heat for the Albiecore masonry heater core. A concrete foundation + brick facing + class A chimney is what needs to be added. I don't see that a masonry chimney has any benefits other than percieved appearance by "high end" clients.

Even DIY, this will still be more expensive than a wood stove, but I don't agree that one needs to spend $12k or $20k to have a masonry heater if you are prepared to do some of the work yourself. It is essential to work with a proven design, or one is courting disaster. In Jackson county the permit fee is based on the value of the installation so might cost $100-150 (a lot more than the $35 I have been reading here).

 

[KeithO]

For the skeptics (referring to the cost sde of the equation) here is another story that should give most of us pause to think about the way we chose to live our lives: (broken link removed to http://www.hollowtop.com/cls_html/cls.html) and (broken link removed to http://www.hollowtop.com/cls_html/limited.htm) (in more detail)

Amongst all the other interesting data, there is this story http://www.grannysstore.com/Do-It-Yourself/masonry_stoves.htm of their russian fireplace that they also built for $1000. Considering that they built their entire house for $10/sq ft, this demonstrates that it is possible to do good things on a budget if the right approach is taken (and the sweat equity is added).

Keith

 

[elkimmeg]

The guy used common fiberglass insulation to insulate his liner and no one finds fault and praises the guy.

when I review a plan for new ci onstruction we requrie an engineering stamp on it before approval that stamp includes fireplace and chimney construction

there are no provisions in code that allows non engineered alterations to fireplaces. Argue as you may, but please provide the required language for approval.

I think it may work or be safe is not to be debated . I require known enginered approvals. I know already the guy is using green wood and has inappriopately used common fiberglass insulation.
In all the hearths that hac ve been built in my homes or that I have inspected none were designed to carry additional weight . most are poured concrete held with naild driven into the floor joist double box and headers I read all his discriptions and nothing is mentioned about additional support of the added bricks and concrete mass sitting on his hearth Again another situation never engineered to support that weight. If one wants to advocate such installations without considering basic structual considerations than all my cautiions I might as well be talking to my dog If one want toadvocate using common insulation in a stiuation beyond it tested range then again I am waisting my time here If one want to advoccate total dissregard for structual and un engineered modifications then again I am wasting my time here but please do not do it in my town. I guess I miss read the intent of this forum and the effort of life safety. I take it life safety is but a minor issue to most. and that advising one to do so I'm wasting my time to ones that think it might work. My suggestion to them is to stick their necks out and sign off such situations .pretty bold to do so when one is not going to be sued for negilgence

 

[KeithO]

Elk, for new work in an insured home one has to follow the ASTM provisions, that will take care of your concerns. Also, if one follows exactly the instructions in the MHA heater plan portfolio, it shoud not allow scope for deviation. Anything complying with the ASTM provisions should be considered "engineering approved " or not ? Few MHA registered masons are engineers, so how do they get engineering approval ?

The builder listed does not promote the methods he used but offers his experience in case it will benefit others who may be planning their own project.

Keith

 

[elkimmeg]

If a situation arises that I suspect does not comply to code or it is beyond my expertise then I can require a mechanical or structual engineering company to inspect it and asertain its approval.

It is within my right to require such inspections wheter the mason was licenced or not. In my state all masons working or fireplaces are required to be licenced.

yes most masons are not engineers nor are framers plumbers electricians yet they are allowed to work.

In the case in point this guy admits to mixing cement at age 12 as his only experience with mansory. I would find it real hard to approve such a brief experience as aceptable engineered practices. You on the other hand, do not have to assume the responsibility of signature of approval and risk nothing, while you advocate such practtices
Plain and simple what is your point? To advocate un engineered designs and modifications without backup structual data, from aperson without any masonry experience.

Ain't going to happen under my watch

 

[KeithO]

Elk, why would you not regard the "official" MHA plans portfolio as "engineered" ? These plans represent the best and most thoroughly researched designs around and they are advocated by MHA for site built heaters. Does the question then not become the "execution" and whether or not the mason / owner/builder has stuck correctly to the plans ? Forget the example cited for the moment and imagine how you would work with a concientious quality and safety concious homeowner who was trying only to manage the cost of the instalation.

I can see an owner / builder taking a lot longer to complete the job than a qualified mason, but at the cost of his own labor, it could be acceptable to tear anything back down that didn't go right the first time and fix it. We have tens of thousands of people building homebuilt airplanes and most of them are neither AP mechanics nor engineers. And the fatality rate amongst homebuilts is no different than factory certified aircraft. You'd have to admit that this represents a far higher level of complexity and potential consequences. Just like with your job, the airframe is certified as airworthy by a DAR who also can and will reject the application if anything is not in order.

I should find it interesting that more homebuilt aircraft have been built in the US than masonry heaters. A project of this kind is within the means of the average person to do if he is willing to stick exactly to the instructions and redo anything that his friendly inspector doesn't agree with. I can see that full ceramic chimneys pose a much more significant structural project and as I said before, that is not something I would ever tackle, but doing a regular class A chimney is not a work of art. Most of the applications I have seen have a class A chimney and the masonry heater is only 8-10ft high at the most. Based on those proportions and assuming a proper foundation, the structural aspect should be no problem at all and easy for the inspector to thoroughly evaluate at the appropriate intervals.

Elk, I have never advocated un engineered designs nor modifications, and have time and again referred to the "MHA plans portfolio" without any deviation. Both of the people cited have done extensive research on the subject and the first example to me was controversial because of his modifications for sure. The second has demonstrated that he is prepared to do extensive planning prior to getting to work and based on his slip rock technique and workshops he offers has to be considered a pretty competent mason by anybody in the business.

What I oppose, is the notion that "only" licensed masons are capable of building a masonry heater. That is BS. Anyone with a few brain cells, some integrity and a little gumption can follow directions. This line of thinking smacks of outright union policy protectionism. Is the US going to become like Australia, where "only" licensed electricians are allowed to change a light fitting ? Or only licensed plumbers are allowed to fit an additional faucet ? Or a licensed carpenter is needed to fit a kitchen countertop or new cabinets ? God help us if that comes to pass.

 

[begreen]

Having a pro install these days does not necessarily mean one is going to get a great job. I've seen a lot of crews that talk the talk, but know about 50% of what is needed to do a job well.

Although I've never sided a house, our painter tells us that the residing my son and I did is some of the best work he's painted in recent years. The reason being, we didn't rush it and if something was wrong, we fixed it then and there. Instead of taking shortcuts on trim and around crowns, we templated and carefully coped the beveled siding to fit. Looks sharp, but not too often seen these days of rough cuts and unplaned, unsanded trim.

 

[elkimmeg]

I hate to tell you this but codes already address plumbing and who is qualified to touch the domesticc side of water issues and he has to be licenced.
I don't make up the codes we as citizens appoint officials that vote in review codes and approve them. Currrently I have 3 petitions to change codes on being automatic shut down to HVAC systems tied into smoke alarm systems Since smoke alarms systems are alreading in place really its not a big issue the same furnace installed in comercial applications is already preped to be wired in basically about $50 expense. On a state level I have a petition to reconize CSI certified chimney sweeps as an reconized authorith and evaluator. Code ccalls for a cchimney being inspected prior to a change of use of appliances but code doesnot spell out who is reconized or qualified to do so. Did you know in MA a chimney sweep is not qualified to instsall a wood stove?

Unles he is also licenced construction supervisor and home improvement licenced Same goes with pellet stove installations the installer has to have a CS licence. My question to the state was,,who would you feel more conmfortable with joe blow CS or a certified Pellet technician makeing the installation? Some of this language was recently adopted but more work needs to be done.

Keith On a public forum, where nobody knows who is reading it, As a code official I present code. Out in the field I have to make value judgements based upon unique situations

Many times the code book can not be applied..; All forum members that have met me will tell you I do have flexibility in person

Hell I'm a contractor and I don't like all codes either. Some are redundant and petty. Experience has taught me which battles to peruie and which are not worth the effort.

Life safety is not one I compromise..

Short version of last years battle with unlicenced illegal immigrant labors building a chimney and fire box First of all incorrect materials were used in the fire box. code calls for soild masonry not hollow core blocks. the owner at the time claimed he would fill the blocks with motar what he did not plan on is me taking out the hammer drill and exposing the cavities in the block next to the wood framing menbers.. Same job the other chimney fire place the header was way too low to the exposed fire box digital time stamped photo whas helpfull here. I told them it had to be moved up and wrote that on the back of the building permit card and dated it..

Wheel it final inspection time I mean the moving trucks are about backing up the driveway.. I asked if the header had been moved up I suspected it was not but just covered up with cultured stone. Should have seen the look on the faces of all wittnessing as I bored a small 1/8" hole in the motar joint, especially when wood shaving started comming out

I would not mind but this happened to be the largest most expensive home built to date the masonry alone was 180k and for a meare $135 per chimney he used hollow core blocks instead of soild filled... Naturally all the contruction people were trying to point out to me I was being a hard a** about the woodheader the owners were told It was my fault they could not move in

I'm willing to be there was a real discussion when I produced time dated photos and notes on the back of the building card 2 months prior this was going to be an issue.

This same home I accidently discovered that the underground electrical service was not burrried but only a couple of inches of wood chips on top of it covering it. Not only that once this was discovered the service wire was only 200 amps for the 400 amps service. IT was purly and accident I found the wire. I liked the way the wood chips looked and reached down to pick some up
that is how I discovered the service wire. After finding that coupled with the fire place issues nobody was pointing a finger at me anymore. That digital camera can save a lot of explaining on my part, or create a hell of a lot more for the construction company supervising that job. What did I get out of all this $30 my inspection fee. I think this might have been the best value these owners got pretty good when one pays 2.3 mill for your home. To9 those new here about a year ago there are post where I tell a more complete accounting of what happende here where I backed down 2 engineering stamps because I knew it was not right and posed life safety issues and I would not hide behind the stamp.

 

[begreen]

[rant]
Safety and quality should be the guide with any installation. But to answer the first question - undoubtedly I would rather that I installed the pellet stove instead of a local "pro". Hiring a pro doesn't always mean that the job will be done professionally. Nor is having an inspection if the inspector is busy or doesn't know much about stove installs. Agreed this combo should guarantee the job is well done, but sadly that sometimes is not true.

I've had two "pro" installs in this house. First was lining the old chimney. "Pro" was a local chimney sweep, licensed and bonded. The installation, while using good pipe, had -no- block off plate, fiberglass stuffed around the pipe at the end of the throat of the flue and I found when I went to replace the smoke dragon a couple years later - no direct connection to the stove! No inspection either, wasn't required back then for a reline (not sure about now). When I replaced the old Majestic insert, I did the pellet stove install and did it right. It never smoked, and the stove was safe and problem free.

The second install was last year. This time the installation was by the stove store's own crew. As pointed out by the forum crew here, they never put in the fire block. Also, I found a couple joints with only one screw. I had them come back and the fix was by their spa repairman. I took it out and did it right the next weekend. If I hadn't been so tied up with the foundation repair I would have preferred to do the whole thing myself. Inspection was a quick glance.

As noted, code and inspection requirements and inspector quality varies from state to state. When the government forces us to accept sub-standard work as compared to doing it well ourself, we are in trouble. Yes, if you do it yourself, you should take the time to do it right. And it's really good to have a qualified inspection done. But the government often can't keep itself straight these days, much less a stovepipe.

Sorry Elk, but many communities are not fortunate enough to have someone with your integrity and knowledge behind the clipboard or the hammer.
[/rant]

 

[KeithO]

Anytime something is not done right, it ought to be torn up and done right immediately. It doesn't sound like your "trouble customer" had financial limitations, just another greedy man trying to cut every corner. Usually, one can pick up these vibes within 5 minutes of meeting someone. There are a lot of us out there Elk, who you could have a perfectly reasonable relationship with and who would do everything possible to do a good safe job. Thus far, I personally have had far more disapointments with "professionals" than good experiences. My neighbor has been a contractor for some time and he says things got to the point where he was spending 25% of his time doing warranty work on things his subcontractors had messed up. Anything I do myself I know exactly where to look to assign blame - just look in the mirror.
Keith

 

[elkimmeg]

Keith I like what you bring to the forum knowledge and a willingness to help others Keep. up up exactly what you are doing

In the donor program other members have worked with doing installations I have gotten to know them as they to me Sucess so far has been such good working relationships that now extend way beyond the forum Keymay now does the wiring for me on the latest addition plus got to swing the hammer with me. Turns out he is a good electrician kind I s wuld hire time and time again

I don't have to say that but it is true On his side he got prompely paid as any good subcontractor should

Keith If you were in my neck of the woods we would be enlisting you to take GVA place in the donor program And for those that do not know this

steps were taken this week to help someone that really could use a break in life. We are not done yet I got a lot of things happening now but I do intend to continue the" unofficial donor program Taking smoke dragons of yesteryear and adding clean epa Compliant stoves. Right now the only question to ask is if we will announce or report our efforts on the forum, since it has not been endorsed or un official The lsast recevier thanks the entire forun for our efforts as he fired in his first breakin fire You guys know the death trap we took out of service

 

[GVA]

Keith If you were in my neck of the woods we would be enlisting you to take GVA place in the donor program

hh: I'm being replaced hh:


You guy's up here in the northeast can't get rid of me till I sell my house