Trying to get more heat from my insert

[kevreh]

Hi,

I have a Napoleon epi3 installed in an exterior chimney, non insulated 6” flue, with roxul as a top plate (stuffed in between flue and brick). I wish it heated my family room better, with house heat set to 68 I can’t really get my 300sf family room above 72 or so. Of course the family room is open to other rooms so heat is escaping.

Have a few thoughts and would appreciate feedback;

- While roxul is good stuff, by not haven’t a sheet metal plate am I losing much heat up the chimney? Seems like the roxul is doing a good job of preventing any draft.
- The fan isn’t the strongest, you can’t feel a breeze until your hand is about one foot in front. Always thought it was a little weak, but maybe thay’re not supposed to be too strong. I’ve played around with adding a small fan blowing across the front.
- Once I get things going I add a couple medium size logs every hour or so. While flames do “lick” the top tubes maybe I’m not filling it up enough. I’d say the firebox is maybe half full. Since the firebox isn’t too deep it’s hard to stack longer wood without a lot of them not being east west and therefore not always stacked the best.
- After an hour or so I start closing the air intake lever so the fire isn’t going too strong.
- Wood; seasoned well, at least a year. Use poplar to get things going, then locust if I want something that will burn longer (my locust wood weighs about 2x as much as the poplar).
- Thinking I was losing heat through the sides and back of the chimney brick, I thought about lining the chimney walls with roxul around the insert. Napoleon didn't like that idea so I didn't.
- Do most people do as I do with adding a couple logs at a time or is it better to load it up more? Maybe this is the simple reason why I’m not getting enough heat.

Thanks!

 

[Jan Pijpelink]

Read this, it might help. https://www.hearth.com/talk/ratings.php?do=viewrating&ratingid=4070

 

[kevreh]

I saw that review, but thanks for posting.

 

[jscs.moore]

Hi,

I have a Napoleon epi3 installed in an exterior chimney, non insulated 6” flue, with roxul as a top plate (stuffed in between flue and brick). I wish it heated my family room better, with house heat set to 68 I can’t really get my 300sf family room above 72 or so. Of course the family room is open to other rooms so heat is escaping.

Have a few thoughts and would appreciate feedback;

- While roxul is good stuff, by not haven’t a sheet metal plate am I losing much heat up the chimney? Seems like the roxul is doing a good job of preventing any draft.
- The fan isn’t the strongest, you can’t feel a breeze until your hand is about one foot in front. Always thought it was a little weak, but maybe thay’re not supposed to be too strong. I’ve played around with adding a small fan blowing across the front.
- Once I get things going I add a couple medium size logs every hour or so. While flames do “lick” the top tubes maybe I’m not filling it up enough. I’d say the firebox is maybe half full. Since the firebox isn’t too deep it’s hard to stack longer wood without a lot of them not being east west and therefore not always stacked the best.
- After an hour or so I start closing the air intake lever so the fire isn’t going too strong.
- Do most people do as I do with adding a couple logs at a time or is it better to load it up more? Maybe this is the simple reason why I’m not getting enough heat.

Thanks!

Not sure what outside temps are where you are...but in my area of eastern PA it is really cold, about 10 degrees and lower with wind chill. I have a medium sized insert (Hampton HI300) and have found that it heats my 2000 sq ft house easily in moderately cold temps (low 30s and even into the 20s). I can keep my whole downstairs at about 75 to 76 and the upstairs bedrooms about 71 to 72!

But these frigid temps with strong wind chills are a game changer and noticed my insert has to really, really work hard to keep up when it get this cold. It chews through wood much faster and the firebox doesn't stay at cruising temp (450 to 550) nearly as long. I do keep the heat pump at 68 in these frigid temps and it does kick on in between loads and when I'm getting the insert back up to temp.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is this type of frigid cold we are dealing with changes everything, so you may need to have more realistic expectations when it get down to the single digits with really strong wind chills

 

[kevreh]

Not sure what outside temps are where you are...but in my area of eastern PA it is really cold, about 10 degrees and lower with wind chill. I have a medium sized insert (Hampton HI300) and have found that it heats my 2000 sq ft house easily in moderately cold temps (low 30s and even into the 20s). I can keep my whole downstairs at about 75 to 76 and the upstairs bedrooms about 71 to 72!

But these frigid temps with strong wind chills are a game changer and noticed my insert has to really, really work hard to keep up when it get this cold. It chews through wood much faster and the firebox doesn't stay at cruising temp (450 to 550) nearly as long. I do keep the heat pump at 68 in these frigid temps and it does kick on in between loads and when I'm getting the insert back up to temp.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is this type of frigid cold we are dealing with changes everything, so you may need to have more realistic expectations when it get down to the single digits with really strong wind chills

Yeah, we're not even in the same ballpark in terms of performance, lol. The heat your getting is a LOT better. We're in the same cold snap (10s and 20s in northern VA), with no wind. I can't get to 75 in the same room much less same level. How much air does your fan kick out? Can you feel it a few feet away? I'll add this above, but I thought about lining the chimney walls with roxul around the insert. Napoleon didn't like that idea so I didn't.

 

[Jan Pijpelink]

Yeah, we're not even in the same ballpark in terms of performance, lol. The heat your getting is a LOT better. We're in the same cold snap (10s and 20s in northern VA), with no wind. I can't get to 75 in the same room much less same level. How much air does your fan kick out? Can you feel it a few feet away? I'll add this above, but I thought about lining the chimney walls with roxul around the insert. Napoleon didn't like that idea so I didn't.

Have you considered insulating the entire liner?

 

[vetrano]

- Do most people do as I do with adding a couple logs at a time or is it better to load it up more? Maybe this is the simple reason why I’m not getting enough heat.

I would load it all the way. Many inserts are designed to be loaded east-west as they are not very deep. Do you get secondaries (fire coming from the tubes at the top of the insert)? If not you are possibly not burning it as designed.

 

[kevreh]

Have you considered insulating the entire liner?

Do you mean all the way to the cap? I don't get that, if thats where the smoke and hot air is leaving up the chimney how will that affect heat in the insert.

 

[kevreh]

I would load it all the way. Many inserts are designed to be loaded east-west as they are not very deep. Do you get secondaries (fire coming from the tubes at the top of the insert)? If not you are possibly not burning it as designed.

Secondaries, not usually. Does that help performance?

 

[Jan Pijpelink]

Do you mean all the way to the cap? I don't get that, if thats where the smoke and hot air is leaving up the chimney how will that affect heat in the insert.

All the way to the top. Liner needs to stay warm. The higher part of the liner is the coolest part and a cool liner causes creosote to develop.

 

[jscs.moore]

Yeah, we're not even in the same ballpark in terms of performance, lol. The heat your getting is a LOT better. We're in the same cold snap (10s and 20s in northern VA), with no wind. I can't get to 75 in the same room much less same level. How much air does your fan kick out? Can you feel it a few feet away? I'll add this above, but I thought about lining the chimney walls with roxul around the insert. Napoleon didn't like that idea so I didn't.

Yeah, I have to say the internal fan on the HI300 is very good, you can definitely feel it pushing the air into the living room area really well. I also use a ceiling fan to help circulate the air thru the rest of the house and upstairs. I do have a block plate due to a 28ft exterior chimney and a insulated liner which I think helps a lot. But in the end, when it gets this frigid outside I think it's a game changer for everyone...except for maybe those with very large free standing woodstoves. With these outside temps, I really wish I had one, but the wifey would never allow it

 

[yooper08]

See comments/follow up questions in line below.

Hi,

I have a Napoleon epi3 installed in an exterior chimney, non insulated 6” flue, with roxul as a top plate (stuffed in between flue and brick). I wish it heated my family room better, with house heat set to 68 I can’t really get my 300sf family room above 72 or so. Of course the family room is open to other rooms so heat is escaping.

Have a few thoughts and would appreciate feedback;

- While roxul is good stuff, by not haven’t a sheet metal plate am I losing much heat up the chimney? Seems like the roxul is doing a good job of preventing any draft.
It is better to have a plate there, but Roxul by itself will keep most heat in. Insulation is like a wool sweater, it lets air pass through, but how much passes through Roxul, not sure.

- The fan isn’t the strongest, you can’t feel a breeze until your hand is about one foot in front. Always thought it was a little weak, but maybe thay’re not supposed to be too strong. I’ve played around with adding a small fan blowing across the front.
Can't comment on this one as I have no experience with your insert.

- Once I get things going I add a couple medium size logs every hour or so. While flames do “lick” the top tubes maybe I’m not filling it up enough. I’d say the firebox is maybe half full. Since the firebox isn’t too deep it’s hard to stack longer wood without a lot of them not being east west and therefore not always stacked the best.
Try to burn in cycles instead of constantly adding wood. Start the fire with a load, let it burn down to coals, then start with a new load.

- After an hour or so I start closing the air intake lever so the fire isn’t going too strong.
Should be able to close this down within 20 minutes or so, plus/minus 10 minutes depending on variables.

- Wood; seasoned well, at least a year. Use poplar to get things going, then locust if I want something that will burn longer (my locust wood weighs about 2x as much as the poplar).
Does your wood hiss/bubble on the ends? What's at least a year? The densest hardwoods like locust need more than a year. Wet wood can affect heat output as more heat is used to boil off water in the wood.

- Thinking I was losing heat through the sides and back of the chimney brick, I thought about lining the chimney walls with roxul around the insert. Napoleon didn't like that idea so I didn't.
Well, you'll definitely lose some heat, however, with a fan, the majority is directed out to the room.

- Do most people do as I do with adding a couple logs at a time or is it better to load it up more? Maybe this is the simple reason why I’m not getting enough heat.
I like to add 4 or 5 as a small load. The logs need the heat from each other to sustain a hot enough fire, which then sustains the secondaries above at the tubes to burn off smoke (saw your comment you rarely have secondaries). Getting these secondaries going will result in a big jump in heat output as smoke is additional fuel that you're not burning.

Thanks!

 

[Rickb]

Hi,

I have a Napoleon epi3 installed in an exterior chimney, non insulated 6” flue, with roxul as a top plate (stuffed in between flue and brick). I wish it heated my family room better, with house heat set to 68 I can’t really get my 300sf family room above 72 or so. Of course the family room is open to other rooms so heat is escaping.

Have a few thoughts and would appreciate feedback;

- While roxul is good stuff, by not haven’t a sheet metal plate am I losing much heat up the chimney? Seems like the roxul is doing a good job of preventing any draft.
- The fan isn’t the strongest, you can’t feel a breeze until your hand is about one foot in front. Always thought it was a little weak, but maybe thay’re not supposed to be too strong. I’ve played around with adding a small fan blowing across the front.
- Once I get things going I add a couple medium size logs every hour or so. While flames do “lick” the top tubes maybe I’m not filling it up enough. I’d say the firebox is maybe half full. Since the firebox isn’t too deep it’s hard to stack longer wood without a lot of them not being east west and therefore not always stacked the best.
- After an hour or so I start closing the air intake lever so the fire isn’t going too strong.
- Wood; seasoned well, at least a year. Use poplar to get things going, then locust if I want something that will burn longer (my locust wood weighs about 2x as much as the poplar).
- Thinking I was losing heat through the sides and back of the chimney brick, I thought about lining the chimney walls with roxul around the insert. Napoleon didn't like that idea so I didn't.
- Do most people do as I do with adding a couple logs at a time or is it better to load it up more? Maybe this is the simple reason why I’m not getting enough heat.

Thanks!

An hour before closing the air intake seems a lot longer then it should and 1 year to season locust is not nearly enough. That locust is wet. Try loading it full with 1 year split and seasoned poplar then close the air down when its warm so your secondarys kick in, and see if your heat coming off the stove is better. You should not need to add wood that often either.

 

[jatoxico]

Secondaries, not usually. Does that help performance?

No secondary burn? What kind of stove top temps are you getting? If you can't get to 550-600 you prob have a wood problem.

 

[saewoody]

It sounds like you may not be loading up the firebox all the way. If I left my damper open on my insert for an hour with a fully loaded firebox, I think my stove would want to explode! I would load it all the way up. Keep your damper open until you reach 500-600 degrees, and then close the damper. See how that works.


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[iceman2424]

Yes, load the firebox. More fuel = more heat. I have the same stove but this concept applies to all stoves regardless of brand. What does it hurt to at least try? The manual says to load to 1/4 inch below the reburn tubes, and it says to use AT LEAST 3 pieces of wood for optimal performance. Stuff that dang firebox, and stuff it good...use seasoned wood only.

 

[kevreh]

See comments/follow up questions in line below.

Yooper,

I had no idea the smoke burns via the secondary. My wood is nice and dry, never hisses. I’ve burned some 6 month logs as a test and they definitely weren’t dry.

I’ll try loading it up in cycles tonight to see how that goes. Thanks!

 

[jetsam]

Secondaries, not usually. Does that help performance?

Reburning the wood gas (be it via secondaries or cat) is a large chunk of your heat output. Think at least 50% in the first half of the load, but decreasing as the wood offgasses.

 

[kevreh]

An hour before closing the air intake seems a lot longer then it should and 1 year to season locust is not nearly enough. That locust is wet. Try loading it full with 1 year split and seasoned poplar then close the air down when its warm so your secondarys kick in, and see if your heat coming off the stove is better. You should not need to add wood that often either.

Are you saying that the secondary’s don’t kick in till you close the air intake? Is the goal to have the air intake closed part way or all the way (very lazy fire)?

 

[kevreh]

No secondary burn? What kind of stove top temps are you getting? If you can't get to 550-600 you prob have a wood problem.

Where do I take a temp reading? Don’t think I have a thermometer that goes that high.

 

[kevreh]

Yes, load the firebox. More fuel = more heat. I have the same stove but this concept applies to all stoves regardless of brand. What does it hurt to at least try? The manual says to load to 1/4 inch below the reburn tubes, and it says to use AT LEAST 3 pieces of wood for optimal performance. Stuff that dang firebox, and stuff it good...use seasoned wood only.

Cool, glad to hear someone else with my stove. So how much do you close down the slider/air control? Half? All the way? How long does that take? Also, do you load it all the way in cycles?

Based on all the feedback above sounds like my technique is wrong, tonight I’ll try the loading in cycles approach.

 

[jatoxico]

Where do I take a temp reading? Don’t think I have a thermometer that goes that high.

You get a stove thermometer and you will most likely have to put it in the vent. By closing the primary air the stove will begin to pull more air through the secondaries. This will have the effect of sending less heat up the chimney while burning smoke and other gases which together raises the stoves temp.

Its hard to say how much to close the air since that changes with individual install and the conditions but you should do it in stages and keep the fire somewhat lively (no smoldering).

 

[iceman2424]

Cool, glad to hear someone else with my stove. So how much do you close down the slider/air control? Half? All the way? How long does that take? Also, do you load it all the way in cycles?

Based on all the feedback above sounds like my technique is wrong, tonight I’ll try the loading in cycles approach.

Damper down in stages, but make sure to maintain flame (avoid smoldering). Secondaries will really get rocking for me when the air control is around 25% open. Firebox has to be full and wood has to be dry, or it won’t work.

Yes, I load full cycles. IE, I fill it, let it burn to coals, reload full. When it’s really cold out, like now, I need more heat, so I reload when the splits are still burning with small flame.

 

[jharris70]

I have had the same stove now (my first) and am into my second season with it. I cycle the reloads when down to coals. I stuff it full of oak. According to my moisture meter my wood is below 20% moisture.

I have been closing the air down to 80% closed after maybe 45 mins or so. And getting a good burn for 2-3 hours, and go on coals for the next 2 hours. I really wish I could get more out of it than I do, but that seems to be the limit with this stove for me. I know that the installer put in a block off plate, but do not believe they insulated behind the insert.

I just returned from Florida vacation tonight so have not been burning in these colder temps, but will tomorrow.

There is not a good place for a thermometer on this stove unless there is a way to to remotely put something up into the flue.

Glad to see some other epi3 users!





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[iceman2424]

I have had the same stove now (my first) and am into my second season with it. I cycle the reloads when down to coals. I stuff it full of oak. According to my moisture meter my wood is below 20% moisture.

I have been closing the air down to 80% closed after maybe 45 mins or so. And getting a good burn for 2-3 hours, and go on coals for the next 2 hours. I really wish I could get more out of it than I do, but that seems to be the limit with this stove for me. I know that the installer put in a block off plate, but do not believe they insulated behind the insert.

I just returned from Florida vacation tonight so have not been burning in these colder temps, but will tomorrow.

There is not a good place for a thermometer on this stove unless there is a way to to remotely put something up into the flue.

Glad to see some other epi3 users!





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Welcome to the forum. I’m right there with you...wish I could get longer burn times too, but I think the firebox is just too small.

I’d go bigger if I could do it all over again but then again, more stove = more money, so maybe not.

I have found the epi3 will cook me out of the room if it’s 30 degrees plus outside, but struggles to keep up during brutal cold snaps like we’re enduring now.