VC 2in1 Secondary/Cat

[certified106]

Allright it was really bugging me that I posted something on another thread saying the VC 2in1 had secondary combustion going on at the same time that the catalyst was burning and everyone was telling me I was wrong. I distinctly remembered the dealer I was talking to taking the stove apart and telling me that there was a secondary burn going on before it got to the catalyst and he was also telling me that was one of the reasons that the catalyst was half the size of the normal catalyst becasue of this.
Anyways I started searching for info on the 2in1 design and what do you know the first google hit was a hearth.com thread with a video of a factory tour/demo at VC having to do with the 2 in1. Take a look at the video link I posted and start watching it at about the 2 minute mark. This is exactly how the dealer explained it to me when he was taking the stove apart and showing me the refractory materials. Just as a siade note the dealer still told me he would rathe have a T6 than the 2in1 as he said they still had a ways to go before he would recomend them after the buyout.

http://s40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/sharkology/HEATING/?action=view&current=VIDEO0069.mp4

Here is a link to the thread: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/66655/

 

[Jack768]

Seems like a good system. Seriously considering a Defiant 2-in-1.

 

[BrotherBart]

"VERMONT CASTINGS EXCLUSIVE! More flexibility with two ways to heat — Converts from catalytic to non-catalytic operation in less than one minute!"

Why does VC say that then?


Edit: I just read the manual and looked at the parts breakdown. It is an Everburn stove with a cat in it. So you are burning in the Everburn mode if you don't engage the cat.

 

[Slow1]

Makes sense - looks like indeed it is doing both burns.

My main concern, however, is that it looks like they are relying on the same "everburn" /downdraft style secondary burn that my first stove (VC Encore NC) had. That did not prove to be a very easy system to keep burning clean. However, if they have improved that design then perhaps it will burn more reliably than it did before.

One thing that it looks like they did take very seriously (assuming the video is accurate) is making those components out of tougher material! Assuming they hold up to the burn temperatures that is a good thing. Also nice to see in the video that they considered the effect of sweeps brushes hitting from the top in the design.

 

[Light in the Dark]

For whatever its worth.. a local dealer told me that its designed so that you basically dont HAVE to replace the cat... the secondaries will 'make up for' the loss of it. Said many customers felt that this gave them time to keep using the stove in a somewhat efficient manner. YMMV

 

[certified106]

"VERMONT CASTINGS EXCLUSIVE! More flexibility with two ways to heat — Converts from catalytic to non-catalytic operation in less than one minute!"

Why does VC say that then?

LOL who knows......alot of what they do hasnt made much sense to me lately hence the reason I have a PE in my living room. Don't shoot the messenger i just want understand how it works since i have now heard multiple things

 

[certified106]

Makes sense - looks like indeed it is doing both burns.

My main concern, however, is that it looks like they are relying on the same "everburn" /downdraft style secondary burn that my first stove (VC Encore NC) had. That did not prove to be a very easy system to keep burning clean. However, if they have improved that design then perhaps it will burn more reliably than it did before.

One thing that it looks like they did take very seriously (assuming the video is accurate) is making those components out of tougher material! Assuming they hold up to the burn temperatures that is a good thing. Also nice to see in the video that they considered the effect of sweeps brushes hitting from the top in the design.

Hey thanks for taking and posting those videos on the progress thread! Watched them a couple of times and it actually makes me think i should have waited to replace my stove until this fall. I cant wat until someone has one installed and can start giving us info on what the burn times are.

I agree with you on having concerns about the secondary combustion technology vc is using as it seems like there were alot of complaints about it being very finicky plus the way it works you dont even get to see the secondary flame show.

 

[MarkinNC]

He did say 2 burner or 3 burner.

 

[Todd]

I hope this new stove works out for VC. Seems like it's a little more stout than the old fragile refractory stoves. It's kind a similar to the new Woodstock stove since they both have a secondary burn before it reaches the cat but the VC uses the everburn type secondary combustion inside the rear chamber while the Woodstock has secondary combustion inside the fire box so it's visible. I don't know yet if I like either setup, it may be a bit more efficient but not much more than a well designed cat stove. All that extra air for secondary combustion may cut down the burn times or make it harder for those long low even output burns that a cat stove is known for?

 

[Slow1]

One key difference that I appreciate in the design is that the PH has the secondary burn placed inside the stove vs being enclosed in the back panel/refractory area. This, I believe, helps get the heat out of the front of the stove easier. My old VC Encore had a problem with overfiring the back of the stove when it really got to cooking which not only overheated the refractory but also threw a lot of heat out the back of the stove, not out the front where it was needed. Then put the cat back there as well and, you get the point.

With the PH the design appears to project the heat from the injected air out the front of the stove - it isn't just about the pretty light show, but it is also about reflecting it out the nice big window. Then the cat is placed at the top of the stove. Note also that the flue gasses are directed forward through that cat so the hottest part (burning through the cat) is again directed at the front of the top part of the stove. Keeping all this heat tossed toward the area where it will be more easily used seems to be one of the basic design principles. I suspect this is part of the reason the flue can be running at 250* with the stove tossing so much heat out the front and the top reading well over 500*. I wasn't there for the earlier "gates of hell" burn but the reported peak flue temps being in the sub 350* is impressive to me - keep the heat out of the flue and it has to go into the room sooner or later and that is a stat that I rely on as a decent measure of effective heating ability.

Again - I haven't seen the 2n1 burning, but my experience with the everburn Encore NC was that the flue temps were MUCH higher during peak burn periods. I'd really like to hear someone with an actual 2n1 comment on these numbers so we can have those objective (rather than speculative) numbers to compare to. Heck, I'd be happy to hear from someone who has seen one burning in a showroom and can report numbers seen there. I have to believe that this 2n1 stove is better designed than the Encore NC.

 

[raybonz]

One key difference that I appreciate in the design is that the PH has the secondary burn placed inside the stove vs being enclosed in the back panel/refractory area. This, I believe, helps get the heat out of the front of the stove easier. My old VC Encore had a problem with overfiring the back of the stove when it really got to cooking which not only overheated the refractory but also threw a lot of heat out the back of the stove, not out the front where it was needed. Then put the cat back there as well and, you get the point.

With the PH the design appears to project the heat from the injected air out the front of the stove - it isn't just about the pretty light show, but it is also about reflecting it out the nice big window. Then the cat is placed at the top of the stove. Note also that the flue gasses are directed forward through that cat so the hottest part (burning through the cat) is again directed at the front of the top part of the stove. Keeping all this heat tossed toward the area where it will be more easily used seems to be one of the basic design principles. I suspect this is part of the reason the flue can be running at 250* with the stove tossing so much heat out the front and the top reading well over 500*. I wasn't there for the earlier "gates of hell" burn but the reported peak flue temps being in the sub 350* is impressive to me - keep the heat out of the flue and it has to go into the room sooner or later and that is a stat that I rely on as a decent measure of effective heating ability.

Again - I haven't seen the 2n1 burning, but my experience with the everburn Encore NC was that the flue temps were MUCH higher during peak burn periods. I'd really like to hear someone with an actual 2n1 comment on these numbers so we can have those objective (rather than speculative) numbers to compare to. Heck, I'd be happy to hear from someone who has seen one burning in a showroom and can report numbers seen there. I have to believe that this 2n1 stove is better designed than the Encore NC.

Hi slow!
Also to add to this that the cat is in direct contact with the large finned heat sink and in fact it's the upper part of the enclosure for the cat.. This also extracts heat and projects it towards the front and top of the stove.. Looks like a well thought out design and one that makes the stove very efficient while still maintaining an adequate stack temp.. The fireshow on Friday was simply amazing! I mean this fire was HD all the way!

Ray

 

[Todd]

Does the cat in either stove actually do anything? If the secondaries are kicking along it should be efficient enough to clean up most if not all the unburnt gases and smoke, what's left for the cat? Seems to me the cat is just there for clean up if anything gets missed?

 

[raybonz]

Does the cat in either stove actually do anything? If the secondaries are kicking along it should be efficient enough to clean up most if not all the unburnt gases and smoke, what's left for the cat? Seems to me the cat is just there for clean up if anything gets missed?

It's true that secondary stoves burn pretty clean but not as clean as a cat so the cat takes care of the rest.. My T-5 runs 3.4 grams per hr. but the PH runs 1.3 grams per hr. so the cat gets fed too..

Ray

 

[Todd]

Does the cat in either stove actually do anything? If the secondaries are kicking along it should be efficient enough to clean up most if not all the unburnt gases and smoke, what's left for the cat? Seems to me the cat is just there for clean up if anything gets missed?

It's true that secondary stoves burn pretty clean but not as clean as a cat so the cat takes care of the rest.. My T-5 runs 3.4 grams per hr. but the PH runs 1.3 grams per hr. so the cat gets fed too..

Ray

Yeah, but I expected the gph numbers to be even better than their other stoves. The Fireview burns just as clean and the Keystone/Palladian is not very far behind.

 

[raybonz]

Does the cat in either stove actually do anything? If the secondaries are kicking along it should be efficient enough to clean up most if not all the unburnt gases and smoke, what's left for the cat? Seems to me the cat is just there for clean up if anything gets missed?

It's true that secondary stoves burn pretty clean but not as clean as a cat so the cat takes care of the rest.. My T-5 runs 3.4 grams per hr. but the PH runs 1.3 grams per hr. so the cat gets fed too..

Ray

Yeah, but I expected the gph numbers to be even better than their other stoves. The Fireview burns just as clean and the Keystone/Palladian is not very far behind.

That may be true but you have to realize that this is a much bigger stove and burns a higher volume of wood with the same numbers.. Imagine your stove or a Fireview with the same technology and how much lower the numbers could be.. This could very well be the benchmark that other stove emissions are compared to.. I think this will kindle other stove makers to look at better ways to extract heat from wood..

Ray

 

[BrowningBAR]

Does the cat in either stove actually do anything? If the secondaries are kicking along it should be efficient enough to clean up most if not all the unburnt gases and smoke, what's left for the cat? Seems to me the cat is just there for clean up if anything gets missed?

It's true that secondary stoves burn pretty clean but not as clean as a cat so the cat takes care of the rest.. My T-5 runs 3.4 grams per hr. but the PH runs 1.3 grams per hr. so the cat gets fed too..

Ray

Yeah, but I expected the gph numbers to be even better than their other stoves. The Fireview burns just as clean and the Keystone/Palladian is not very far behind.

That may be true but you have to realize that this is a much bigger stove and burns a higher volume of wood with the same numbers.. Imagine your stove or a Fireview with the same technology and how much lower the numbers could be.. This could very well be the benchmark that other stove emissions are compared to.. I think this will kindle other stove makers to look at better ways to extract heat from wood..

Ray

The Defiant, which has a larger firebox, has lower emission numbers than the HP.

 

[Battenkiller]

I wasn't there for the earlier "gates of hell" burn but the reported peak flue temps being in the sub 350* is impressive to me - keep the heat out of the flue and it has to go into the room sooner or later and that is a stat that I rely on as a decent measure of effective heating ability.

Overall efficiency, without a doubt. Heating ability... not so much. My Vig of somewhat similar size firebox will blow you right out of any room when running full bore, but the overall efficiency will drop with that 1000º+ flue gas temp. Regardless, it will heat your a$$ toasty warm at the same time that it is losing all that heat up the flue, so it's actual heating ability will be up there with the best and most efficient stoves of similar size, even though you will use more wood in the process.

The only thing I wonder is how well the PH will draft at those low temps in a real chimney that doesn't have an induced draft system. I guess you'll be reporting about that once you get yours installed. ;-)

 

[raybonz]

Does the cat in either stove actually do anything? If the secondaries are kicking along it should be efficient enough to clean up most if not all the unburnt gases and smoke, what's left for the cat? Seems to me the cat is just there for clean up if anything gets missed?

It's true that secondary stoves burn pretty clean but not as clean as a cat so the cat takes care of the rest.. My T-5 runs 3.4 grams per hr. but the PH runs 1.3 grams per hr. so the cat gets fed too..

Ray

Yeah, but I expected the gph numbers to be even better than their other stoves. The Fireview burns just as clean and the Keystone/Palladian is not very far behind.

That may be true but you have to realize that this is a much bigger stove and burns a higher volume of wood with the same numbers.. Imagine your stove or a Fireview with the same technology and how much lower the numbers could be.. This could very well be the benchmark that other stove emissions are compared to.. I think this will kindle other stove makers to look at better ways to extract heat from wood..

Ray

The Defiant, which has a larger firebox, has lower emission numbers than the HP.

What is the stack temp like on the Defiant? I am looking at overall efficiency combined with low emissions.. I don't know a thing about Defiant so I can't make a comment.. I do know that the PH is a really cool stove with an unreal fireshow! I hope you get a chance to see one burn someday..

Ray

 

[Battenkiller]

I do know that the PH is a really cool stove with an unreal fireshow! I hope you get a chance to see one burn someday.

BBAR has already acknowledged that he'd get one if money wasn't tight right now. They do offer financing BTW, but I can see how that isn't the smartest way to go in these uncertain times. Seems we're pinching pennies more and more these days ourselves. Last thing I want is another bill to have to pay each month, but the option in there with Woodstock.

 

[oldspark]

I wasn't there for the earlier "gates of hell" burn but the reported peak flue temps being in the sub 350* is impressive to me - keep the heat out of the flue and it has to go into the room sooner or later and that is a stat that I rely on as a decent measure of effective heating ability.

Overall efficiency, without a doubt. Heating ability... not so much. My Vig of somewhat similar size firebox will blow you right out of any room when running full bore, but the overall efficiency will drop with that 1000º+ flue gas temp. Regardless, it will heat your a$$ toasty warm at the same time that it is losing all that heat up the flue, so it's actual heating ability will be up there with the best and most efficient stoves of similar size, even though you will use more wood in the process.

The only thing I wonder is how well the PH will draft at those low temps in a real chimney that doesn't have an induced draft system. I guess you'll be reporting about that once you get yours installed. ;-)

Flue temp will also depend somewhat on the chimney correct?

 

[BrowningBAR]

Does the cat in either stove actually do anything? If the secondaries are kicking along it should be efficient enough to clean up most if not all the unburnt gases and smoke, what's left for the cat? Seems to me the cat is just there for clean up if anything gets missed?

It's true that secondary stoves burn pretty clean but not as clean as a cat so the cat takes care of the rest.. My T-5 runs 3.4 grams per hr. but the PH runs 1.3 grams per hr. so the cat gets fed too..

Ray

Yeah, but I expected the gph numbers to be even better than their other stoves. The Fireview burns just as clean and the Keystone/Palladian is not very far behind.

That may be true but you have to realize that this is a much bigger stove and burns a higher volume of wood with the same numbers.. Imagine your stove or a Fireview with the same technology and how much lower the numbers could be.. This could very well be the benchmark that other stove emissions are compared to.. I think this will kindle other stove makers to look at better ways to extract heat from wood..

Ray

The Defiant, which has a larger firebox, has lower emission numbers than the HP.

What is the stack temp like on the Defiant? I am looking at overall efficiency combined with low emissions.. I don't know a thing about Defiant so I can't make a comment.. I do know that the PH is a really cool stove with an unreal fireshow! I hope you get a chance to see one burn someday..

Ray

No idea what the stack temp is as I do not run a Defiant. I was simply pointing out out that the emission numbers on a larger stove were lower than on the HP since as you were highlighting that the HP is a much bigger stove than the Fireview.

 

[BrowningBAR]

I do know that the PH is a really cool stove with an unreal fireshow! I hope you get a chance to see one burn someday.

BBAR has already acknowledged that he'd get one if money wasn't tight right now. They do offer financing BTW, but I can see how that isn't the smartest way to go in these uncertain times. Seems we're pinching pennies more and more these days ourselves. Last thing I want is another bill to have to pay each month, but the option in there with Woodstock.

Correct on many points, BK.

My questions and comments should not be considered a dig against the stove. Just research and answered questions.

 

[Todd]

Does the cat in either stove actually do anything? If the secondaries are kicking along it should be efficient enough to clean up most if not all the unburnt gases and smoke, what's left for the cat? Seems to me the cat is just there for clean up if anything gets missed?

It's true that secondary stoves burn pretty clean but not as clean as a cat so the cat takes care of the rest.. My T-5 runs 3.4 grams per hr. but the PH runs 1.3 grams per hr. so the cat gets fed too..

Ray

Yeah, but I expected the gph numbers to be even better than their other stoves. The Fireview burns just as clean and the Keystone/Palladian is not very far behind.

That may be true but you have to realize that this is a much bigger stove and burns a higher volume of wood with the same numbers.. Imagine your stove or a Fireview with the same technology and how much lower the numbers could be.. This could very well be the benchmark that other stove emissions are compared to.. I think this will kindle other stove makers to look at better ways to extract heat from wood..

Ray

The Defiant, which has a larger firebox, has lower emission numbers than the HP.

What is the stack temp like on the Defiant? I am looking at overall efficiency combined with low emissions.. I don't know a thing about Defiant so I can't make a comment.. I do know that the PH is a really cool stove with an unreal fireshow! I hope you get a chance to see one burn someday..

Ray

No idea what the stack temp is as I do not run a Defiant. I was simply pointing out out that the emission numbers on a larger stove were lower than on the HP since as you were highlighting that the HP is a much bigger stove than the Fireview.

I guess we still don't know all the facts on the emission tests. Some manufactures take the average of a low, med and high burn, while others pick and choose the lowest of the three and don't state what stage of the test burn it was achieved. Non cats seem to burn cleaner at higher burn rates while cats are well under 1.0 in the low burn rates. VC could of just cherry picked that .8 number from a low burn rate? Probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference between 1.0 to 4.0, still pretty clean burning and efficient.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Does the cat in either stove actually do anything? If the secondaries are kicking along it should be efficient enough to clean up most if not all the unburnt gases and smoke, what's left for the cat? Seems to me the cat is just there for clean up if anything gets missed?

It's true that secondary stoves burn pretty clean but not as clean as a cat so the cat takes care of the rest.. My T-5 runs 3.4 grams per hr. but the PH runs 1.3 grams per hr. so the cat gets fed too..

Ray

Yeah, but I expected the gph numbers to be even better than their other stoves. The Fireview burns just as clean and the Keystone/Palladian is not very far behind.

That may be true but you have to realize that this is a much bigger stove and burns a higher volume of wood with the same numbers.. Imagine your stove or a Fireview with the same technology and how much lower the numbers could be.. This could very well be the benchmark that other stove emissions are compared to.. I think this will kindle other stove makers to look at better ways to extract heat from wood..

Ray

The Defiant, which has a larger firebox, has lower emission numbers than the HP.

What is the stack temp like on the Defiant? I am looking at overall efficiency combined with low emissions.. I don't know a thing about Defiant so I can't make a comment.. I do know that the PH is a really cool stove with an unreal fireshow! I hope you get a chance to see one burn someday..

Ray

No idea what the stack temp is as I do not run a Defiant. I was simply pointing out out that the emission numbers on a larger stove were lower than on the HP since as you were highlighting that the HP is a much bigger stove than the Fireview.

I guess we still don't know all the facts on the emission tests. Some manufactures take the average of a low, med and high burn, while others pick and choose the lowest of the three and don't state what stage of the test burn it was achieved. Non cats seem to burn cleaner at higher burn rates while cats are well under 1.0 in the low burn rates. VC could of just cherry picked that .8 number from a low burn rate? Probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference between 1.0 to 4.0, still pretty clean burning and efficient.

I agree.

But, in regards to this, it is another frustrating aspect of the specs that stove manufacturers offer.

Emissions Ratings/efficiency
BTUs
Firebox size
Burn times
Heating capacity

All basic items buyers need in order to make an informed decision and it seems no two manufactures define their specs in the same manner. Look at the Haman thread and the Quad Voyager thread. Two different manufacturers that turned their specs into ridiculous marketing spin to the point that the stove details that are offered border on useless.

And I've now taken the thread into another direction, which wasn't the point, but it is an issue.

 

[Slow1]

Draft requirements is another good question. Something that I haven't seen/read anything on with regard to the PH. I do hope that my chimney will be up to the task.

To the point of the cat having something to do... The flexibility offered by the PH is supposed to be that it can be burned high or low. Without the cat in order to burn clean one would have to burn the load at a high temp in order to get a clean burn - with the cat one should be able to choose a long slow (lower temp) burn once the burn has initiated. This is the flexibility not offered by non-cat only stoves.