VC Intrepid or WinterWarm (Small) users, how do you run your stove?

[VTSR5]

The VC WinterWarm (Small) and VC Intrepid are very similar devices with practically the same small firebox, small cat, air controls and refractory combustion chamber. Users, please share your favorite techniques for cold starts and warm re-starts. I'm relatively new to this model and haven't got my technique dialed yet.

What's your sure-fire way to light the cat? What other tricks and tips did you develop? Your input is very welcome and will help keep the oil man away from my driveway this winter. Thanks!

 

[moondoggy]

hey,
last year was my first year burning... but heres what i do
top down starts are ok, maybe i'm just not as good at it.
i lay 2 small half splits east west on the bottom some news paper inbetween them, kindeling laid north and south resting on the half splits.
another 2 splits on top.
light the paper.
few minutes, once the ifres going well, i move things around- add another split if i have room- few more minutes the griddle temp is over 500 and rising, and I also have a gauge 1ft from the collar that i watch to make sure its on its way
over 500. that combined with the wood now blackeing, I engage the cat. and if it is a roaring blaze, i close the air intake slightly.
within a minute i see the temp gauge inching up, (and my steamer begins to sizzle). and close the air intake down a ways. level out at a good temp.....you'll draw out the burn time, and cats like alittle more smoke and gas, then roaring blaze.... from what i'm told, you dont want the flame to go up under the hood and crack the combuster either. never open the sotve when the cat is engaged.
when i'm down to coals, shut the cat off, wait :30 seconds for the draft to return and reload.
relighting a split goes quick.
i get ~4 hrs burn time...and in january i can keep 1000sq ft at 70 degrees
i fiddle with it all the time, but i'm compulsive like that
love the stove, wish i got a slightly larger one, but my space wouldnt allow it.

honestly, from what i read and experience... your techniques will be developed over time.. i have read folks thta engage at 400 with an intrepid..it never worked for me. things also change greatly depednign on wood TYPE and wood Quality.. last year i had some punky wood, that might be why i needed higher temps.
i kind of learned a ton of stuff here, and then learned more from the stove as i went along.
i'm still on the learning curve, hope something i say helps you.
best of luck

 

[VTSR5]

--snip-- ...hope something i say helps you. best of luck

That's beautiful, moondoggy. Thanks for the details, it will help.

Anyone else out there?

Anybody?

(crickets chirping...)

 

[international5288]

Hi! My first post here. I purchased a VC WW Small in the middle of October. It is (self) installed in a masonry hearth that is built around a heatform. I re-lined the 20', 13x13 brick exterior chimney with a full SS flex liner, non-insulated. I am using it to heat a 2-story farm house of ~1800'/sq. My wood is nice and dry, a mix of oak, elm, and ash right now. Frankly, this stove is driving me nuts!! It seems to be really "touchy" to operate. I grew up in a house with an old-fashioned free-standing wood stove, which you just chucked wood into, got it going hot, closed the damper, adjusted the air and walked away from it for 6 hours. Not the VC! It takes constant adjustments to keep it in the "sweet spot" and cranking out smokeless heat. When I have it right, it really cranks out nice heat and keeps the house 72-74F downstairs. But mostly it seems I sit in front of it and try to keep it working right...

My technique is to get a kindling fire going and add progressively bigger splits, as normal. I usually let it go for an hour or so with the damper open to build a coal bed, then add some larger stuff, let it char, then engage the cat. The problem is the larger pieces start to gas out quickly and lightly "whuff" the stove for a bit. I don't think it is actually sucking air down the chimney, however. If I close down the air to stop the whuffing then all the unburnt gases go back to the cat and it starts rumbling. The throat hood will eventually glow red, and I can see the glow of the cat in the gaps around the hood. If I open the air to burn some of the gases in the firebox then sometimes the cat will go out because it is not getting enough smoke to stay burning. I'm really at a loss on what it takes to consistently operate this stove without under or overfiring. A few times it has really taken off on me and the air control would not snuff it down much. Contrast that to today, where I'm having a hard time just keeping the cat lit. I'm not ready to give up on it yet but I'd certainly appreciate any and all advice. My dealer is totally useless, and having to watch the stove out of the corner of my eye is making me paranoid of it. Help!!

TIA!

 

[mrk99]

Hey international5288. I had a non-cat Intrepid for 5 years - my first stove - and echo your experience with the stove being touchy. Like you say, once that sweet spot was found, it was great, but a hair too much air, or a hair too little, and the balance was thrown off. Basically if I was there to watch the darn thing, I would burn wood and it was OK but I didn't trust it at all and only ever burned about 3 face cord of wood per cold Canadian winter. I thought there must be a better way to burn wood and upgraded to a non-cat modern stove with about twice the firebox and I gotta say, it's really a treat to use the new stove. I just fill it, get it to temp and walk away for 6 or 8 hours, come back and do the same..the only thing is, I have burned through 2 face cord already in the past 5 or 6 weeks! Luckily I planned for much more wood consumption for this winter and have enough I think. I know my advice is probably what you don't want to hear, but your post hit home with your VC WW troubles.. been there.

Good luck!

 

[international5288]

Yes, I am slightly afraid I've made the wrong purchase. I didn't find this forum until afterward unfortunately, so I was (and still am) fairly ignorant of what is/isn't a good stove. But I didn't have many choices in this area, I left my shopping late plus due to work constraints I couldn't travel a long distance to find many different dealers. So here I am. A couple things I didn't really touch on in my first post because it was getting long: 1) I have an inconsistent draft. 20 degrees out? Roaring good draft. 40 degrees? Not so much. Should I re-install the liner with insulation? 2) I did not make a damper blockoff plate. (I have a 6" liner stuffed thru a ~ 8"x24" damper opening, sealed top plate) I was told it wasn't necessary, but now I certainly wonder how these things are affecting the stove.

Right now the stove is humming along with no smoke. Unfortunately in a few hours it will take different settings, tomorrow it will take different settings, etc etc.

 

[VTSR5]

...The problem is the larger pieces start to gas out quickly and lightly "whuff" the stove for a bit. I don't think it is actually sucking air down the chimney, however. If I close down the air to stop the whuffing then all the unburnt gases go back to the cat and it starts rumbling. The throat hood will eventually glow red, and I can see the glow of the cat in the gaps around the hood. If I open the air to burn some of the gases in the firebox then sometimes the cat will go out because it is not getting enough smoke to stay burning. I'm really at a loss on what it takes to consistently operate this stove without under or overfiring. A few times it has really taken off on me and the air control would not snuff it down much. Contrast that to today, where I'm having a hard time just keeping the cat lit. I'm not ready to give up on it yet but I'd certainly appreciate any and all advice. My dealer is totally useless, and having to watch the stove out of the corner of my eye is making me paranoid of it. Help!!

So, I have had about sixty days experience burning almost daily in my WW (small), and I have solved a few problems. That does not make me an expert, but I do want to help if I can because I am very enthusiastic about this insert now that it is working right. Why the enthusiasm? Because I heat my entire 1900 sq ft cape with this little workhorse, easily maintaining 70 inside when 20 outside. That is remarkable performance, I think, from a 1.25 cubic foot firebox stuffed in a fireplace in the corner of a 1977 era 2x4 framed house in northern VT.

I have come to the conclusion that the WW (small) is kind of like a Ferrari -- capable of extraordinary performance, but requiring a fairly high level of tune and operator involvement to deliver the goods. You are right to expect this stove to give you (almost) smokeless performance over a range of temp settings without the babysitting and whuffing. The whuffing is a hint that your wood might be too dry. But if you want to satisfy your mind that your stove is working right, I can point you at the two key problems I had to fix before I could fall in love with it. (1) I totally regasketed everything I could find, and I mean everything. (2) I carefully inspected and then totally overhauled the secondary air system.

I'm sure you can figure out the gasketing, so I will tell you how to do a basic inspection of the secondary air system. The next time the stove is cold, clean it out as best you can and carefully pull the fireback and throat hood off by first lifting then removing the two wedges. Check the gasketing on the back of the fireback. There should be two short pieces horizontally near the top outer corners, and longer sections in an obvious channel vertically. These are absolutely vital for proper operation of your catalyst. I did not reallize I had a problem here until I really studied the back of the fireback, and the front of the cat chamber and thought hard about how air was supposed to move back there to get to the cat without getting mixed with the smoke too soon. Once I did that, I could see a couple of problems, like missing gaskets and a few other gaps that I jury-rigged for better performance.

Next, look at exterior of the combustion chamber "plug", which is the removable rectangular door covering the cat. If there are pieces missing, especially at the upper outer corners, some creative gasketing is in order.

Remove the plug carefully to inspect the cat and, as important, the secondary air probe. See photo attached. This probe conducts heat to a bimetallic coil which controls secondary air. This should be projecting about an inch into the space downstream from the combustor. When the probe burns away, the coil thinks the cat is colder than it really is, and it then provides too much air, making the mixture too lean, and tending to run the cat too hot. Alternatively, the linkage between the coil and the secondary air gate may come undone. When this happens, the secondary air gate is just always closed, starving the cat for air and running too rich (smokey). Remedying either of these secondary air problems requires gaining access to the back of the stove, which means pulling the insert and removing the cabinet, a 2 hour PITA start to finish.

"Blow-by" is a problem separate and distinct from a secondary air leak. Blow-by describes the problem of smoke getting past the combustor without going through the combustor. This can happen when the cat gets distorted and does not fit well in the chamber, or the chamber fails structurally and does not seal well. Creative gasketing helped me here also, though a new chamber is the right solution. Look for evidence of blow by while you are in the combustion chamber. My clues were a sooty trail on the outside of the cat, and some other smokey sooty clues to mismanaged flow in the chamber.

Finally, the combustion chamber should be vacuumed clean of fly ash so air can flow through unimpeded. This is a delicate job so dont just stick the vacuum in there. My advice is to make an extension for your vacuum cleaner using soft vinyl hose of say 1" inner diameter, and gently suction out the chambers. The alternative is to remove the combustion chamber, which I have done a few times, but just be aware that you are holding a part worth about $300.00 in your hands and it is more fragile than eggs. Proceed accordingly.

 

[VTSR5]

Hi! My first post here. I purchased a VC WW Small in the middle of October. It is (self) installed in a masonry hearth that is built around a heatform. I re-lined the 20', 13x13 brick exterior chimney with a full SS flex liner, non-insulated. I am using it to heat a 2-story farm house of ~1800'/sq. My wood is nice and dry, a mix of oak, elm, and ash right now. Frankly, this stove is driving me nuts!! It seems to be really "touchy" to operate. I grew up in a house with an old-fashioned free-standing wood stove, which you just chucked wood into, got it going hot, closed the damper, adjusted the air and walked away from it for 6 hours. Not the VC! It takes constant adjustments to keep it in the "sweet spot" and cranking out smokeless heat. When I have it right, it really cranks out nice heat and keeps the house 72-74F downstairs. But mostly it seems I sit in front of it and try to keep it working right...

My technique is to get a kindling fire going and add progressively bigger splits, as normal. I usually let it go for an hour or so with the damper open to build a coal bed, then add some larger stuff, let it char, then engage the cat. The problem is the larger pieces start to gas out quickly and lightly "whuff" the stove for a bit. I don't think it is actually sucking air down the chimney, however. If I close down the air to stop the whuffing then all the unburnt gases go back to the cat and it starts rumbling. The throat hood will eventually glow red, and I can see the glow of the cat in the gaps around the hood. If I open the air to burn some of the gases in the firebox then sometimes the cat will go out because it is not getting enough smoke to stay burning. I'm really at a loss on what it takes to consistently operate this stove without under or overfiring. A few times it has really taken off on me and the air control would not snuff it down much. Contrast that to today, where I'm having a hard time just keeping the cat lit. I'm not ready to give up on it yet but I'd certainly appreciate any and all advice. My dealer is totally useless, and having to watch the stove out of the corner of my eye is making me paranoid of it. Help!!

TIA!

A few further comments:

Once your cat is up to temp, you should be able to "walk away" for six hours. I routinely shut mine down for 8 or more hours and still have active coals left. But if you want meaningful heat, 4 to 6 hours is not unreasonable. To get this, starting with an active cat and a full, properly charred load, I close the air until orange active flames are just barely suppressed. After a minute or two, this gives an effect which can only be described as "Aurora Borealis", a slow, rolling blue and purple flame show. If given a little more air than this, my stove will run with moderate heat for about 6 hours on a full load of fuel. If I open the air somewhat more from this position, maybe 1/2 inch above this point, the flames will be active, the heat output will be strong, the throat hood will probably glow, and the fuel will last about 4 hours. If I close 1/2" below this point, I expect to find a gallon of moderately active coals in the bottom after 8 hours. That's pretty good for a stove that can barely hold four splits.

When operating at high output, my stove's throat hood glows soft red, and the more yellow-white light of the combustor is visible through the gaps, as you describe. THis is not overfiring (the manual for this stove specifically says that if any EXTERIOR part of the stove glows, you are overfiring). Nor does the absence of this glow mean the cat is inactive (underfiring). Look to the smoke for a reading on cat activity. I usually get a few minutes of light to moderate smoke when shutting the air significantly, but after a few minutes, the stove seems to get back in the zone and run smokelessly (if the cat was properly activated beforehand).

Your comments about good draft at 20 but weak draft at 40 are consistent with my experience, and in my opinion is not a fault of the stove. I have 22' of 6" uninsulated flex in a masonry chimney exterior to the house, interior to the unheated garage. Insulated at the top cap. Block-off plate with insulation at the flue damper. I'm glad I put in a block off plate with insulation. It was a PITA, but I need every BTU I can get up here, and it definitely helps with that, but I doubt it affects the draft.

Don't give up yet, the WinterWarm (small) is a wonderful little heater giving you more flexibility and longer burn times than seems possible from such a small stove. Part of your problem may simply be perception. Just because the cat isn't glowing, does not mean it's not working. Also, small movements with the primary air control tend to have large effects on my stove. It took me a while to figure that out. I had a lot of problems to solve in my used 15 year old WinterWarm, but now that it is dialled, I am glad I put the effort into tuning it up and understanding it's operation.

 

[international5288]

I appreciate so much your taking the time to type out your well-considered thoughts. Not an expert? Well, I believe you are. :D

It is interesting that you mention air control and/or gasketing problems because I am now starting to think that might be my issue. The other day I tore into the combustor on my stove to see if there were any obvious faults. It was basically clean and all the gaskets "seemed" to be in place. The refractory package appeared like new, and the cat wasn't burned/cracked/distorted. I didn't remove the ref. package to look at the probe, I guess I wasn't even aware it was there. Like you, I tried to visualize how the air management was designed. After some thought now, I think my "rumbling" problem before was because the smoke was getting lit just inside the throat hood. That would explain the glowing hood and the visible light coming thru the hood joints. I am going to go back in there and take a harder look at everything. I don't think I got something sealed right because now when I have the stove "in the zone" it is showing some light smoke. Its sneaking around the combustor somewhere evidently. <sigh> Come to think of it, I don't remember that back plate having any sort of gasket at the bottom? That would allow smoke to go right around the sides of the refractory package IIRC. Furthermore, my constant need to fiddle with the primary air would indicate something is amiss, perhaps, in the secondary air. I'll dig into it and report back. Let's keep this thread going!

Thanks!

 

[VTSR5]

I appreciate so much your taking the time to type out your well-considered thoughts. Not an expert? Well, I believe you are. :D

It is interesting that you mention air control and/or gasketing problems because I am now starting to think that might be my issue. The other day I tore into the combustor on my stove to see if there were any obvious faults. It was basically clean and all the gaskets "seemed" to be in place. The refractory package appeared like new, and the cat wasn't burned/cracked/distorted. I didn't remove the ref. package to look at the probe, I guess I wasn't even aware it was there. Like you, I tried to visualize how the air management was designed. After some thought now, I think my "rumbling" problem before was because the smoke was getting lit just inside the throat hood. That would explain the glowing hood and the visible light coming thru the hood joints. I am going to go back in there and take a harder look at everything. I don't think I got something sealed right because now when I have the stove "in the zone" it is showing some light smoke. Its sneaking around the combustor somewhere evidently. <sigh> Come to think of it, I don't remember that back plate having any sort of gasket at the bottom? That would allow smoke to go right around the sides of the refractory package IIRC. Furthermore, my constant need to fiddle with the primary air would indicate something is amiss, perhaps, in the secondary air. I'll dig into it and report back. Let's keep this thread going!

Thanks!

No problem. Post pictures, it will help. I should have asked this before writing you a novel, is your stove new or used?

It occurred to me as I re-read your post that I can recreate these roaring/whuffing conditions in my stove if I let it warm up for an hour with the air fully open, then close the damper without changing the primary air setting. If the stove is good and hot, the draft is so strong and so well developed at that point that I hear loud, startling roaring as all those gasses suddenly get forced through the somewhat smaller passages of the secondary chamber. If I then close or lower the primary air, there is so much momentum built up in the flue that it pulls a vacuum in the firebox, and, voila, whuffing.

If this is the root of your problem, the solution may be as simple as slowing things down a bit before closing the damper. When I am heating up a fuel load with the damper open, I leave the air open to the pin stop as you do until things are really rolling, but then I lower the air maybe a finger-thickness below the pin (if the pin is 1:30, then this might be 2:00 or 2:15 air setting) for a few minutes before closing the damper. The precise setting is not important as long as you get the point, which is to slow the draft and visibly slow down the combustion process from raging flames leaping up the damper to reasonably busy orange flames filling and rolling around the firebox but not going crazy. I leave it like this for five minutes, then close the damper. Usually I get instant ignition in the cat which I can hear as a rumble, but without the violent roaring. Often I just leave things alone at that setting for 20 minutes or half an hour (shower and a cup of coffee), then make my long term setting.

 

[VTSR5]

...I didn't remove the ref. package to look at the probe, I guess I wasn't even aware it was there...

You need not remove the package, just the plug. In other words, if you can remove the cat, you can visually check the probe -- it should be visible just below the ledge the cat sits on, on the back wall of the combustion chamber. If the probe is intact, it will project about 0.75 inch into the combustion chamber, about one inch below the bottom of the cat, roughly centered. If the probe is burned away, you should see the stub where it passes through the back wall of the combustion chamber. Mine was burned away flush with the chamber wall.

 

[international5288]

Thanks for the replies. I will try to answer your Q's, add some data and relate my latest episode with this "stove." (nuclear generator?) I purchased the stove new 2 months ago, so everything "should" be ok with it. My cursory inspection over the weekend seemed to indicate it was. I have a magnetic Rutland thermo that I have stuck to the top right side of the stove, on the flat ribbed panel perpendicular to the door. That seems to be the hottest spot on my stove. I also have an IR gun that I use. The actual temperature of the firebox top/right corner just behind the door is about 50 degrees higher than the magnetic thermo indicates. Makes sense, there is an air gap. Strangely, the left side of the stove lags about 50 degrees behind the right side, and it always burns from right to left. ??

My usual startup procedure is thus: In the AM I open the stove to find about a gallon or so of red coals. I swish them around to get out the ash, and then push them to the back against the rear plate. I empty the ash pan and clean the glass. Then I add some small splits on the coals and some progressively bigger splits toward the front. Damper open, air open, I leave the door open a crack to let it get going. Once I have a vigorous burn, I close the door and adjust the air to keep the flames from going too far out of the damper opening. Once the mag thermo hits about 400 indicated (450 actual) and the splits are charred with a good coal bed, I (slowly) close the damper and open the air control to max. I let it heat up to about 450 indicated and then start to close the air control again. My pin stops the lever at about 1:30. If I close the lever to about 2:00- 2:30 then I get some nice yellow flames on a portion of the log. If I try to close down the air even more, then I get the "aurora borealis" that you write about. (excellent description!) And here begins my problems. If I get it down to a lazy blue flame with the A.B. lazing around at the top of the firebox, it will eventually go out. When that happens, then it re-lights suddenly and it goes into a cycle of "whuffing." Once it builds up enough oxygen, whuff.... out. Whuff... out. Sometimes it whuffs hard enough to sneeze some smoke out the door gaskets. So, I have to sit there and fiddle with the air for quite a while to keep it from going into whuff mode. Or, I have to leave the air up enough to make sure it won't... but then I burn thru the wood pretty quick. If I get it right the stove cruises at about 475-525 actual and is just wonderful.

And after I came in from work this evening I had it going wonderfully. Then, the trouble. After the logs had been turned to red charcoal I fed in another piece. The stove was nice and hot. I left the damper open to get the new log going. It began to burn quite vigorously, so I turned down the air. Only, air starts coming out of the flame hood and making a nice big BLOWTORCH! Now I have a raging fire and its going too far up past the damper for comfort. Whenever I try to close down the air, BLOWTORCH. If I open the air it calms down but is still way too big of a fire. So really at that point I have no choice but to close the damper. This sets off the big-time roaring/rumbling back in the cat chamber. Bright orange/yellow is visible in the hood gaps, the hood glows, basically the thing sounds like a rocket getting ready to lift off. I'm not kidding, it is a little scary. It was so nuts tonight I was trying to think of a way to put out the fire... because I couldn't with the air control. Eventually I managed to creep down the lever and get it under control. Its sitting there now running like nothing happened.

So this is what I'm going thru. Any ideas? I don't understand how the primary and secondary air system is supposed to interact. It sure seems to me like something is letting the secondary run rampant. I had the cat out when I cleaned the ref. package, poked my finger down in there, and do not recall feeling/seeing a probe at all. This stove has been like this since it was new, but seems to be getting worse. (weather's colder... more draft, less control??) I really don't trust it anymore.

 

[international5288]

Well today I spent some "quality time" with my stove. Pulled off the surround and installed a blockoff plate. Thin steel with ceramic insulation on top, horizontal from the lintel on back, about 5" above the stove. My chimney has a heatform inside so it was pretty easy to make and fasten securely with self-tapping screws. (my brother helped, we made a cardboard template first) I pulled out the plate covering the combustor package, checked gasketing, looked for leaks, etc etc. I really didn't find any leaks there, and burn patterns looked as they should. I replaced the combustor with a steel one from Condar. Although the original looked fine I thought I would try the Condar as it is supposed to light off more quickly. The temperature probe below the combustor was fine. The only thing I found wrong in the stove, the internal cover over the main air control was loose. So, it had undoubtedly been sucking a little air thru there, and it was probably also the source of a smoke smell when the stove would whuff sometimes.

Tonight's the first burn with the improved setup, and even with milder temps outside I can still tell that the stove reached operating temp more quickly, and the cat also lit more quickly. The surround is about 10 degrees hotter than normal, so all that heat above the stove is definitely being forced out the front. It is sitting there humming along right now and it is quite warm in the house. I still think I'd like to add some sort of control over my secondary air at some point, but I'll see how things go for now.

 

[VTSR5]

...Tonight's the first burn with the improved setup, and even with milder temps outside I can still tell that the stove reached operating temp more quickly, and the cat also lit more quickly. The surround is about 10 degrees hotter than normal, so all that heat above the stove is definitely being forced out the front. It is sitting there humming along right now and it is quite warm in the house. I still think I'd like to add some sort of control over my secondary air at some point, but I'll see how things go for now.

That's great news! Sounds like you are getting things dialed in. I think you will like the WW (small) once you get to know this little workhorse. Mine was maintaining 68 degrees in my 1900 sq foot cape at zero degrees exterior temps with a strong wind on Monday night. That exceeded my expectations by quite a lot, I figured I was good to about 20 degrees with the WW. We'll see how it does on a zero degree day in January when the ground and foundation are colder than they are today.

About secondary air, you might be interested to know that there is some adjustment possible by "clocking" or rotating the thermostat coil relative to the fixing arm on the secondary air control. The pictures tell the tale. Note that both pictures are taken with the stove cold, but the air door position is different. Accordingly, in one case the door will close at lower temps than in the other case. This is one possible way to adjust secondary air for your particular draft situation.

 

[VTSR5]

^^I'm not really sure what the purpose of that "extra" hole is seen in both of those photos, above and to the right of the secondary air thermostat, but it's an air leak so I plugged it with stove cement. Seems to me it could be used to mount a cat thermometer probe -- a hole drilled through this point would penetrate the cat.

 

[international5288]

Yep, I think I'm getting to better grips with this stove. I have adjusted some of my methods, for ex. mixing sizes of splits so that they gas out at different rates and don't cause such spikes in the burn. On a bit of a tangent, I am a high-performance engine builder/tuner by trade so I understand fully what you are saying... parts are half the battle, tuning them is the other half. Anyway... thanks for the pics of the 2ndary air control. I haven't seen the little bugger with my own eyes, yesterday I didn't have to pull out the stove to install the blockoff so I didn't go there. The pics give me a few ideas about making a manual "backup" air control that could be run via a rod that you twist from the front. On my setup I could also install an outside air kit that would go thru the fireplace's ash dump and route to the cleanout door outside. It would be a pain to adjust that way, but at least I could find a choke setting for those "worst case" scenarios. (great draft, high winds) Or, I have an extra bottle of Argon here in the shop that I could just plumb into the air inlet. <lol>

The blockoff plate elevated my morning house temp by about 3 degrees, BTW.

Shoddy pic attached... doesn't tell much but there the little beastie is.

 

[jimmol]

I appreciate so much your taking the time to type out your well-considered thoughts. Not an expert? Well, I believe you are. :D

After some thought now, I think my "rumbling" problem before was because the smoke was getting lit just inside the throat hood.

Thanks!

In my WinterWarm small, the rumbling sound is usually accompanied by some flame coming out the throat hood. A secondary burn is occurring in the throat, being fed from the secondary air. I believe this happens when the fire is so hot it heats the throat to a temp that will ignite the gasses going into it as soon as the damper is closed. As mentioned previously, just don't let it burn as hot before you damper the fire.

My 2 cents.

 

[international5288]

You are exactly right I think. I have noticed the same thing. What do you do when it burns in the throat? It seems goofy to me that the design would put the secondary air ahead of the CAT instead of behind it, especially since the manual talks about avoiding "flame impingement" of the CAT. Since my last update I have insulated my liner, and also blocked off about 40% of the secondary air channel under the refractory package with some plain old aluminum foil. The stove seems to have stabilized a little more. I think the insulation made the draft more consistent, and the air restriction has cut the number of "runaways" that I have had. At some point I am still going to modify both air intakes so they can be controlled more.

Thanks for your input!

 

[jimmol]

The guys who installed mine insulated the pipe when they put it in. Partially blocking it off may help. I like the idea of a manual override but I am sure that it would add another variable to making it work right.
Just after I got my WinterWarm several years back I had added wood and left the primary air wide open. I was doing something around the house and when I returned it was ablazing when I closed the damper. Before I knew it the throat hood was glowing red. I put the primary air down, but since it was being fueled from the secondary air, it did nothing. I could not cool it down. It just kept on rumbling and glowing. I think the secondary air flap was stuck due to the draft created when I started it. I finally opened the damper, with primary air off, opened the door just a bit. That relieved the pressure and the secondary moved to the closed position. When I closed the door the fire died down. Now I no longer leave it unattended as I start it.

 

[bmwbj]

^^I'm not really sure what the purpose of that "extra" hole is seen in both of those photos, above and to the right of the secondary air thermostat, but it's an air leak so I plugged it with stove cement. Seems to me it could be used to mount a cat thermometer probe -- a hole drilled through this point would penetrate the cat.

Yes that is a hole for a cat probe, my Intrepid II has the same entrance hole. I purchased an electronic cat prob
and it sets directly under the cat. I have never "Over stuffed" my stove for fear of a runaway fire, so my burn times
are slight lower than some of the other guys. But I must say that it does keep my 1200 sq ft house really toasty.
I only burn nights and week-ends but it still does a great job. I too have rumbling noises when my cat is first engaged,
and now with a cat probe I can monitor the complete burn cycle. Believe me you would very surprized to see the contrast
in cat burn temps with primary air adjustments and wood types...I've had cat temps between 1000f, and 2000f at at any given
times of the cycle. At these cat temps, the stove top is between 450, and 650, and stack temps between 400 and 500 normally.
These temps of the cat are normal depending on air, wood type, and draft. The more smoke produced and draft produced,
the hotter that cat will run. I do love my stove, I just wish I could get over the fear of a runaway fire, being a fireman and
seeing what can happen is prob my down fall. Enjoy that little stove --- it is a work horse.

 

[jimmol]

Thanks for the info as I have learned much reading this sight.. I take it that you had to drill a hole into the cast to get your probe in? What type of a drill did you use? Did you need to use anything to seal around the probe? I asked my dealer to order a probe years back and he said he would not do it. Oh well.

Do you have a digital probe stack?

After several years of the Winter Warm, I must confess that I still don't have the system down pat. So today it was back to the manual and follow the procedure on page 12. They say to stack it full, so I did. It is burning nicely but still has a way to go to get 3 to 4 inches of embers. I usually shut the damper after all the wood is charred well, all pieces have a red surface. Anyway, as I forgot, you are supposed to leave the airflow on high for the first 15 minutes after you close the damper.

I am using mine to heat the main floor of a two story house. 800 sq. ft on the main, 800 on the second, full basement. The living room where the insert is located is 12 x 26, with half the room opening up into the entry hallway, in which the open stairway is located. Just past the stairway is the dining room, the coldest on the level - I need to get the living room up to 72 at sitting level then the dining gets up to 68. Upstairs is in the mid to upper 60s. I use gas heat to warm the house in the morning to 68, then fire the insert when I will be home for the day or I will start it again in the evening when I get home. When the temp is in the 20's or greater it is enough to get by, in the teens or lower we sit in the living room a lot or turn up the furnace to warm up the house then back to using the insert.

Jim