VC Pinnacle - Is my control valve bad? If so will valve conversion kit solve the recurring failure?

[tom w]

Hi, I've had a VC PDV20 Pinnacle LP stove for about 20 years. Trying to decide if it's worth it to repair or get a new one (Jotul or similar). In the past 10-15 years it seems I have an issue every few years, and that's getting old.
A little background, and I have 3 questions:
About 2 months ago the pilot wouldn't stay lit, so I replaced the thermocouple with a spare I had. The pilot went out a couple times since then but relit fine on the first try. I've been keeping an eye on it since it's unusual for this to happen, and I was planning to replace the thermocouple (and thermopile while I'm at it) with brand new ones soon.

But today the pilot was out again. When I went to relight it, I discovered that the pilot would light even when the control valve is OFF (don't ask how high I jumped when the pilot gases fired up!). Not good. So I turned off the gas supply. Wiggled controls on valve, checked all connections, all seems good, but the problem persists. QUESTION 1: Does this indicate, or hopefully confirm, that the control valve is bad?

It's a bit of a pain to work on this stove, which is why I'm posting here. I've had the control valve replaced by a service tech twice, and then the 3rd time I did it myself, about 4 years ago. The only service company around isn't very good, and they're one of those that just try to sell new stoves. I can throw about $300 in parts at it (control valve, thermocouple, thermopile), and that will probably solve the issue, but I'm concerned that I'll just be repeating this once again in a few years.

I've read that this particular valve is prone to failure. So I'm hesitant to just keep throwing the same crappy valve in there, only to have it fail a few years later. But, the old valve is HONEYWELL VS8420E 2020 LP, but ther'es a new valve that is suppossed to fit:
RP 270 HONEYWELL VALVE TO SIT VALVE RETROFIT (20010684)

QUESTION 2:
Does anyone have any experience with this new valve... does it fail as often as the old one?

BTW, the spare thermocouple was leftover from when I replaced the control valve/thermocouple/thermopile ... I cleaned it, and it tested fine (at 24mv IIRC) before I installed it, but it's possible it's failed since then.

QUESTION 3: I haven't replaced the thermopile, but I think a bad thermopile wouldn't cause this behavior, right?
Thanks!

 

[KeithO]

Tom, I think your situation is in some ways similar to mine, so let me summarize:
We have obsolete stoves and the original manufacturers have gone out of business and no longer support the products.

In your case, possibly you have a component failure. In my case I need to switch from propane to NG and the valve and jets are not set up for it. Stove dealers wont touch it if there is not a prepackaged conversion kit or matching spare parts available. They want to sell you a new $2500+ stove and they dont want the liability of designing a new control system for your stove.

So you have to ask yourself: Do I have the skill and knowledge to take on the job of fitting new controlls to my stove ? Are you willing to live with the consequences of making a mistake, like burning down your house or causing injury or death ? When I was 17 I was a combat engineer working with landmines and unexploded ordinance, so these concepts are very clear to me since my unit had a 10% fatality rate doing our job on a different continent. If you cant answer yes, dont do it.

Having said that, using a millivolt style gas valve with a thermocouple and thermopile is very much a comodity business as far as parts go. If you can download a manual for your stove, the specs for the stove should contain the parameters for how the gas valve was originally set up and you can cross check this with likely gas valves to confirm that they are factory set up to match what your stove needs.

Provided you will be satisfied with an on/off switch or 2 wire thermostat for control, a millivolt gas valve like the Robertshaw 710 series will be all you need and they are pretty inexpensive.

Let us know your thoughts...

 

[tom w]

Keith, Thanks for the reply, that's really helpful info. That's a great idea, I didn't know you could do that, and I just have an on/off switch now anyway. And yes, since I posted I've discovered there is not a replacement or retro kit for my unit. But, doing an install from a part like that is probably beyond my experience; I'm pretty handy and installing a direct replacement or model-specific retro kit is something I've done. I've taken apart outboards and what not, and I'm sure it's not rocket science, but the consequences of my inexperience could be very costly!

I did find a local NFI certified guy who is only a service tech, they don't sell stoves... looking into whether he can retrofit it using that or similar valve. It's a long shot, but worth a call.

Given my symptom (pilot stays lit when control is OFF), do you have any insight as to whether this valve can work again, or if it's even advisable? I'd read that over time carbon can build up in copper LP lines, and eventually fall off and get into the valve. Or sometimes with a sticky valve (which I suspect my issue is) they tap gently on the valve and it frees it. OTOH, even if that fixes it for the time being, what about if/when it happens again? It's potentially a very dangerous situation. I don't mind when a thermocouple needs replacement, no big deal the pilot goes out and valve closes. But sticking open... not good.

I'm moving in a couple years so I'm hesitant to buy a new stove. But if I can't get someone to help me DIY a retro, I may have to bite the bullet.

Many thanks for your help!

 

[KeithO]

Tom, Im sure that these gas valves are close tolerance devices and most likely it would be a contamination issue from the black gas line (corrosion dust) or internal corrosion from vater vapor that is contained inside the gas itself over a long period of time. Some valves may be less succeptible than others, perhaps the honeywell valve is more succeptible ?

You should talk to your service tech about fitting a different millivolt style valve, its really not very complicated, one just has to know how to leak test it, and then verify that all of the safety features are in fact doing their job, and he would know how to do that. Worst case, replace the gas valve and the entire pilot assembly with a unit that is supported and compatible with the gas valve. The 2019 Catalog for Robertshaw lists gas valves and in a different section, compatible pilot assemblies, all from the same manufacturer.

 

[KeithO]

https://www.robertshaw.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2147496739

Link to referenced Robertshaw catalog. See "heating" section. Look at 710 valves and be specific to your fuel (propane or NG) since generally they will not work with both (different part numbers). After gas valve section are pilots and thermopiles and thermocouples.

If you identify part numbers of interest, search for them on ebay and amazon for the best prices.

 

[wooduser]

today the pilot was out again. When I went to relight it, I discovered that the pilot would light even when the control valve is OFF (don't ask how high I jumped when the pilot gases fired up!). Not good. So I turned off the gas supply. Wiggled controls on valve, checked all connections, all seems good, but the problem persists. QUESTION 1: Does this indicate, or hopefully confirm, that the control valve is bad?

Yes, an important safety feature is that the gas valve shuts all the gas off if the pilot is out. So the valve is bad.

<<About 2 months ago the pilot wouldn't stay lit, so I replaced the thermocouple with a spare I had. The pilot went out a couple times since then but relit fine on the first try. I've been keeping an eye on it since it's unusual for this to happen, and I was planning to replace the thermocouple (and thermopile while I'm at it) with brand new ones soon.

But today the pilot was out again.


The most common reason for pilot outages is a dirty pilot burner orifice. Describe the appearance of your pilot burner flame.

It should look like a small blowtorch, focusing a sharp blue flame on the pilot generator/thermocouple.

If its' a soft flame that's easily blown around, has yellow tips or isn't engulfing the thermocouple/pilot generator, you need to disassemble the pilot burner and clean the pilot orifice.

 

[tom w]

https://www.robertshaw.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2147496739

Link to referenced Robertshaw catalog. See "heating" section. Look at 710 valves and be specific to your fuel (propane or NG) since generally they will not work with both (different part numbers). After gas valve section are pilots and thermopiles and thermocouples.

If you identify part numbers of interest, search for them on ebay and amazon for the best prices.

Thanks, Keith, I really appreciate it! Service guy is coming today, we'll see. I'm leaning toward fitting an MV valve as you suggested.

 

[tom w]

Yes, an important safety feature is that the gas valve shuts all the gas off if the pilot is out. So the valve is bad.

<<About 2 months ago the pilot wouldn't stay lit, so I replaced the thermocouple with a spare I had. The pilot went out a couple times since then but relit fine on the first try. I've been keeping an eye on it since it's unusual for this to happen, and I was planning to replace the thermocouple (and thermopile while I'm at it) with brand new ones soon.

But today the pilot was out again.


The most common reason for pilot outages is a dirty pilot burner orifice. Describe the appearance of your pilot burner flame.

It should look like a small blowtorch, focusing a sharp blue flame on the pilot generator/thermocouple.

If its' a soft flame that's easily blown around, has yellow tips or isn't engulfing the thermocouple/pilot generator, you need to disassemble the pilot burner and clean the pilot orifice.

Thanks... pilot was burning fine before this issue... hitting thermocouple well. I'd also cleaned the pilot orifice and it was clear. I'm thinking the copper line has carbon, or maybe water vapor. So I may have the line replaced if I can get the valve situation rectified.

 

[tom w]

Well, the service tech wasn't much help... the valve is bad and they won't install a valve that isn't specifically designed for the unit... liability. I've called so many service techs and no one wants to touch it. Trying to figure out what to do next. I'm tempted to try DIYing the 710 valve or similar. Gonna have to think on that for a while, though. Are there any videos or instructions on doing that? I can't seem to find anything online, but if I could find something that lays out the basic steps I'd be tempted to at least try it.

It seems crazy to throw out a perfectly good $2500 stove that only needs a $200 valve. Then again, it's even crazier to risk life and limb, if I make a mistake. Not to mention potential insurance issues if something happens. Starting to think about a direct vent wall unit. About 1/3 cost of a new stove, and I'm pretty confident I can install it properly. Hmmm.

Again, many thanks for your help!

 

[KeithO]

If you can snug up and leak test the gas main to appliance connector on the wall heater, then you can so the same thing with swapping out your gas valve, which has a gas inlet, pilot outlet and main jet outlet.

But none of the members here on the forum can hype up your confidence to do the task. Either you are or you are not. Your decision alone.

 

[k0wtz]

Hi, I've had a VC PDV20 Pinnacle LP stove for about 20 years. Trying to decide if it's worth it to repair or get a new one (Jotul or similar). In the past 10-15 years it seems I have an issue every few years, and that's getting old.
A little background, and I have 3 questions:
About 2 months ago the pilot wouldn't stay lit, so I replaced the thermocouple with a spare I had. The pilot went out a couple times since then but relit fine on the first try. I've been keeping an eye on it since it's unusual for this to happen, and I was planning to replace the thermocouple (and thermopile while I'm at it) with brand new ones soon.

But today the pilot was out again. When I went to relight it, I discovered that the pilot would light even when the control valve is OFF (don't ask how high I jumped when the pilot gases fired up!). Not good. So I turned off the gas supply. Wiggled controls on valve, checked all connections, all seems good, but the problem persists. QUESTION 1: Does this indicate, or hopefully confirm, that the control valve is bad?

It's a bit of a pain to work on this stove, which is why I'm posting here. I've had the control valve replaced by a service tech twice, and then the 3rd time I did it myself, about 4 years ago. The only service company around isn't very good, and they're one of those that just try to sell new stoves. I can throw about $300 in parts at it (control valve, thermocouple, thermopile), and that will probably solve the issue, but I'm concerned that I'll just be repeating this once again in a few years.

I've read that this particular valve is prone to failure. So I'm hesitant to just keep throwing the same crappy valve in there, only to have it fail a few years later. But, the old valve is HONEYWELL VS8420E 2020 LP, but ther'es a new valve that is suppossed to fit:
RP 270 HONEYWELL VALVE TO SIT VALVE RETROFIT (20010684)

QUESTION 2:
Does anyone have any experience with this new valve... does it fail as often as the old one?

BTW, the spare thermocouple was leftover from when I replaced the control valve/thermocouple/thermopile ... I cleaned it, and it tested fine (at 24mv IIRC) before I installed it, but it's possible it's failed since then.

QUESTION 3: I haven't replaced the thermopile, but I think a bad thermopile wouldn't cause this behavior, right?
Thanks!

I have an old vermont castings stove it had a Thermopylae and a pilot plus has valve i took it all out bought a simple has valve with gas fired pilot only.. Kids system stove works perfectly noe.. Got the stove cheap for your reaspns

 

[tom w]

FWIW I replaced the pilot assembly and the problem is gone. Thermopile was on the edge of being bad, and pilot orifice had some corrosion. I can't replicate the problem now... valve shuts off every time I cut the propane while pilot is burning, or when main burner is going. While I had everything apart I tested the valve itself with multimeter and it checked out. So I still don't know exactly why it was sticking open... however there seems to a be a "lockout" period after you failed to get the pilot lit or to stay lit, I think it waits for the thermocouple to cool down. Maybe I was impatient and didn't wait long enough? IDK, scratching my head, but it's working fine. And BTW, after doing all that, Kevin is right... it's really not that hard. So if this valve gives me trouble again I'll take his advice and replace it myself.

 

[sweaty]

I have an old vermont castings stove it had a Thermopylae and a pilot plus has valve i took it all out bought a simple has valve with gas fired pilot only.. Kids system stove works perfectly noe.. Got the stove cheap for your reaspns

I have natural gas PDV20. I am interested in doing what you did, sound Like you basically gutted the whole thing and installed new valve and pilot.

The stove is otherwise good. I am happy with manual things. I actually do not like the remote control features.

If you see this, I would appreciate any details.

 

[Billl]

Hi, I've had a VC PDV20 Pinnacle LP stove for about 20 years. Trying to decide if it's worth it to repair or get a new one (Jotul or similar). In the past 10-15 years it seems I have an issue every few years, and that's getting old.
A little background, and I have 3 questions:
About 2 months ago the pilot wouldn't stay lit, so I replaced the thermocouple with a spare I had. The pilot went out a couple times since then but relit fine on the first try. I've been keeping an eye on it since it's unusual for this to happen, and I was planning to replace the thermocouple (and thermopile while I'm at it) with brand new ones soon.

But today the pilot was out again. When I went to relight it, I discovered that the pilot would light even when the control valve is OFF (don't ask how high I jumped when the pilot gases fired up!). Not good. So I turned off the gas supply. Wiggled controls on valve, checked all connections, all seems good, but the problem persists. QUESTION 1: Does this indicate, or hopefully confirm, that the control valve is bad?

It's a bit of a pain to work on this stove, which is why I'm posting here. I've had the control valve replaced by a service tech twice, and then the 3rd time I did it myself, about 4 years ago. The only service company around isn't very good, and they're one of those that just try to sell new stoves. I can throw about $300 in parts at it (control valve, thermocouple, thermopile), and that will probably solve the issue, but I'm concerned that I'll just be repeating this once again in a few years.

I've read that this particular valve is prone to failure. So I'm hesitant to just keep throwing the same crappy valve in there, only to have it fail a few years later. But, the old valve is HONEYWELL VS8420E 2020 LP, but ther'es a new valve that is suppossed to fit:
RP 270 HONEYWELL VALVE TO SIT VALVE RETROFIT (20010684)

QUESTION 2:
Does anyone have any experience with this new valve... does it fail as often as the old one?

BTW, the spare thermocouple was leftover from when I replaced the control valve/thermocouple/thermopile ... I cleaned it, and it tested fine (at 24mv IIRC) before I installed it, but it's possible it's failed since then.

QUESTION 3: I haven't replaced the thermopile, but I think a bad thermopile wouldn't cause this behavior, right?
Thanks!

I have the same exact valve in a VC unvented propane stove apparently go bad after 20+ yrs. The service company doesn't want to deal with it so I will be attempting a repair myself. The old valve always had a weak pilot and when the stove would light, it would stay on just 20 min max before it would just shut down, even with a new thermopile and orifice assembly.. This is the one I will attempt the repair with: Amazon product ASIN B09KYJHXXW