Okay, this is a rather large and rambly and potentially polarizing subject. I am interested in your collective opinions and conversation. It is a 'green' topic, if not a space heating one.
As touched upon last August in a Climate Change thread, I have been moving in a vegan diet direction, perhaps better termed a 'Whole Food Plant Based' WFPB diet. Veganism is a philosophy that includes the ethical treatment of animals, and has a plant based diet as just one component.
I have been doing a deep dive on human nutrition and health, largely via science-based YouTubers.
'Gil' at 'Nutrition Made Simple': https://www.youtube.com/@NutritionMadeSimple
'Mic' at Mic The Vegan: https://www.youtube.com/@MictheVegan
Gil is an MD Nutritionist in his 40s, Mic is a Nutrition Master's student in his 30s (I think). Both make a point of interviewing actual scientists doing the research, and cite peer-reviewed studies heavily in their work.
Both people eat a 100% vegan diet. Gil is 'live and let live' about people's dietary choices. Mic strongly advocates for a WFPB diet and veganism.
Where they stand on the science overlaps about 98% as far as I can tell.
I have learned a number of things.
1. A high-fiber diet is needed for heath. it both reduces/regulates blood cholesterol and regulates hunger. Our livers actually excrete cholesterol (and other fat soluble compounds) into our small intestine, and then we selectively reabsorb the molecules we need lower in the GI. I had always heard that 'fiber lowered cholesterol', and never believed it, bc it made no sense to me. But this 'non-selective excretion plus selective re-adsorption' is exactly how our kidneys work for water soluble species. The point being that a low fiber diet leads to much higher readsorption than would otherwise occur... boosting cholesterol. Check. Also, bacteria digesting fiber in our GI release small molecules (short chain fatty acids, SFAs) that go into our circulation, cross the brain-blood barrier and help regulate hunger. So a low fiber diet can directly lead to higher hunger, over eating and weight gain.
2. Saturated fat is worse than you have been led to believe. Basically everyone eating a Western/omnivore diet has some form of cardiovascular disease, CVD, defined as artery lesions and plaques. This includes most of us before we hit puberty, even if only 30% of us will eventually die from it. The same plaques are present in the brain, in the kidneys, in peripheral circulation, and are a leading cause of ED. I had previously believed that the problem was just one of excess... that 'moderation' in meat eating would be OK... we're omnivores, right? But you can look at peer reviewed studies and ask how much animal (or plant) based saturated fat can you eat, and have essentially zero cardiovascular disease... what is the 'threshold for harm'?? And the answer is: essentially ZERO meat/dairy and very LITTLE refined vegetable oil. To have a 'healthy' cardiovascular system you need to not ONLY be vegan, but also to eat refined oils sparingly! Also, chicken is no more healthy in terms of CVD than red meat with the same saturated fat content!
Around the world the people that eat like that are handily the longest living people, and are often very fit/sharp to an advanced age!
But but, we're omnivores! you say. Well, a dog eats a diet of mixed animal and vegetable matter (omnivorous)... do they get cardiovascular disease? They do NOT get cardiovascular plagues on a meat based diet! They are biologically suited to such a diet, while we clearly are not. Our animal cousins (the great apes) are all herbivores, and our digestive tracts and biochemistry remain very similar to theirs. So science says that we humans are, sadly, herbivores, and there is no 'safe dose' of meat eating.
3. Obesity and (type II) Diabetes are not caused by an excess of 'carbs'. Obesity is caused by an excess of calorie consumption, period. This is likely exacerbated by the eating of very energy-dense foods (junk food with refined sugar and fats, which are low in fiber). But carbs do not get transformed into fat by the body in any significant amount. If you eat too much of mixed carbs and fats, you body will store the fat as fat and store the carbs as glycogen. So its excess total calories (and lack of satiety), not macro nutrients, that leads to obesity. Type II diabetes is caused by insulin resistance, and insulin resistance is caused by the excess storage of fat inside muscle cells: 'intramyocellular lipids', which inhibits insulin receptors. What causes such intracellular fat storage? When we eat a high fat diet, that fat enters our bloodstream (in carriers) and is absorbed by our muscle cells for future energy demands. So persistent, excess fat consumption, especially saturated fats such as animal fats leads to excess fat INSIDE our muscle cells, which then refuse to respond to insulin by absorbing sugar. A low carb, high fat or 'keto' diet thus increases insulin resistance (even if it lowers blood sugar) perpetuating the disease.
4. Cancer and hormones. Processed meats (with nitrites) are potently carcinogenic, higher consumption of those foods a century ago (prior to refrigeration) led to stomach cancer being the #1 killer. Unprocessed red meats are also human carcinogens (independent of how they are cooked), with colon cancer being the strongest association. Dairy products contain significant amounts of bio-active sex hormones and growth factors. Eating dairy transiently increases estrogen and decreases testosterone in the blood of humans. Some of these hormones and growth factors are implicated in cancer progression/growth, with prostrate cancer in men and endometrial cancer in women having the strongest associations.
The major protein in dairy, casein, metabolizes into short chain peptides called casomorphins, that actually engage the same brain receptors as morphine and other narcotics (at about 5% of the potency). There is currently speculation that this might literally make dairy products such as cheese biochemically addictive. This chemistry is probably functional, as it leads to more stable nursing behavior in baby mammals, that are getting a bigger 'hit' from these compounds.
5. Plant proteins and nutrients (e.g. calcium) are sufficient for human dietary needs. We are supposed to eat a lot of dairy to stave off osteoporosis... yet osteoporosis is much rarer in countries around the world where dairy is NOT consumed. Western vegans do not appear to suffer from protein deficiency in detectable numbers, nor do they have unhealthy bone density. Historical studies of plant protein and nutrient absorption appear to have been flawed. Omnivores have a microbiome that is poorly adapted to eating plants and fiber, leading to gas, bloating and poor absorption from many plant foods. Those on a vegan diet get an adapted microbiome (in a week or two) that processes plant foods efficiently, including high absorption!
The exception is B-12. B-12 is made by bacteria, and drinking dirty water would have given ancient people enough B-12. With clean water, vegans must take B-12 supplements or eat fortified or fermented foods.
-------------------------
The takeaway from all of this is that the healthiest diet for humans is a WFPB diet. It is healthier than ovo-lacto vegetarians, or pescatarians, or flexitarians, or whatever.
Corroborating the five findings above:
1) Vegans are the only group to have an average BMI in the Normal range.
2) People eating a WFPB diet have far less CVD (and LDL markers well below govt guidelines). A low-fat WFPB diet has been shown to reverse CVD.
3) Vegans have 78% lower incidence of Diabetes. Many patients report a reversal of disease on a vegan diet.
4) Vegans have about 20% lower incidence of cancer mortality.
5) Vegans have higher blood protein (albumin) and higher blood testosterone than omnivores. Most take B-12 supplements.
------------------------
Now, none of this make me happy at all. I LIKE non-vegan food. But I am going to switch in the New Year.
------------------------
This all begs the question of, if all of the above is something like scientific consensus (and has been for years or decades), why aren't we getting a clear message from the USDA, or the AMA, or the American Heart Association, or the Diabetes Society or the Cancer Society? And instead we get influencers, and snake oil, and the Liver King and Joe Rogan telling us how to eat!
This is where we come to our Green Room trope: Tobacco Lawyers. There are a bunch of people out there being PAID to lobby for unhealthy foods, by agriculture and pharma companies.
Here is a documentary on NetFlix called 'What the Health?' that makes this case: (broken link removed to https://www.netflix.com/watch/80174177)
Many would dismiss it as 'Vegan Propaganda'.
I don't love 'gotcha documentaries', which I think often get things wrong. But given the scientific case around human health, and the lack of action being taken by our govt and medical establishment, I find this one sadly plausible. I think just looking at research funding sources is limited. In the interest of full disclosure, I, woodgeek, have received a $200,000 research grant from the American Petroleum Institute. You may discount all my postings in the Green Room henceforth since I am clearly a shill for the oil industry.
May you all have a Happy and Healthy New Year!
As touched upon last August in a Climate Change thread, I have been moving in a vegan diet direction, perhaps better termed a 'Whole Food Plant Based' WFPB diet. Veganism is a philosophy that includes the ethical treatment of animals, and has a plant based diet as just one component.
I have been doing a deep dive on human nutrition and health, largely via science-based YouTubers.
'Gil' at 'Nutrition Made Simple': https://www.youtube.com/@NutritionMadeSimple
'Mic' at Mic The Vegan: https://www.youtube.com/@MictheVegan
Gil is an MD Nutritionist in his 40s, Mic is a Nutrition Master's student in his 30s (I think). Both make a point of interviewing actual scientists doing the research, and cite peer-reviewed studies heavily in their work.
Both people eat a 100% vegan diet. Gil is 'live and let live' about people's dietary choices. Mic strongly advocates for a WFPB diet and veganism.
Where they stand on the science overlaps about 98% as far as I can tell.
I have learned a number of things.
1. A high-fiber diet is needed for heath. it both reduces/regulates blood cholesterol and regulates hunger. Our livers actually excrete cholesterol (and other fat soluble compounds) into our small intestine, and then we selectively reabsorb the molecules we need lower in the GI. I had always heard that 'fiber lowered cholesterol', and never believed it, bc it made no sense to me. But this 'non-selective excretion plus selective re-adsorption' is exactly how our kidneys work for water soluble species. The point being that a low fiber diet leads to much higher readsorption than would otherwise occur... boosting cholesterol. Check. Also, bacteria digesting fiber in our GI release small molecules (short chain fatty acids, SFAs) that go into our circulation, cross the brain-blood barrier and help regulate hunger. So a low fiber diet can directly lead to higher hunger, over eating and weight gain.
2. Saturated fat is worse than you have been led to believe. Basically everyone eating a Western/omnivore diet has some form of cardiovascular disease, CVD, defined as artery lesions and plaques. This includes most of us before we hit puberty, even if only 30% of us will eventually die from it. The same plaques are present in the brain, in the kidneys, in peripheral circulation, and are a leading cause of ED. I had previously believed that the problem was just one of excess... that 'moderation' in meat eating would be OK... we're omnivores, right? But you can look at peer reviewed studies and ask how much animal (or plant) based saturated fat can you eat, and have essentially zero cardiovascular disease... what is the 'threshold for harm'?? And the answer is: essentially ZERO meat/dairy and very LITTLE refined vegetable oil. To have a 'healthy' cardiovascular system you need to not ONLY be vegan, but also to eat refined oils sparingly! Also, chicken is no more healthy in terms of CVD than red meat with the same saturated fat content!
Around the world the people that eat like that are handily the longest living people, and are often very fit/sharp to an advanced age!
But but, we're omnivores! you say. Well, a dog eats a diet of mixed animal and vegetable matter (omnivorous)... do they get cardiovascular disease? They do NOT get cardiovascular plagues on a meat based diet! They are biologically suited to such a diet, while we clearly are not. Our animal cousins (the great apes) are all herbivores, and our digestive tracts and biochemistry remain very similar to theirs. So science says that we humans are, sadly, herbivores, and there is no 'safe dose' of meat eating.
3. Obesity and (type II) Diabetes are not caused by an excess of 'carbs'. Obesity is caused by an excess of calorie consumption, period. This is likely exacerbated by the eating of very energy-dense foods (junk food with refined sugar and fats, which are low in fiber). But carbs do not get transformed into fat by the body in any significant amount. If you eat too much of mixed carbs and fats, you body will store the fat as fat and store the carbs as glycogen. So its excess total calories (and lack of satiety), not macro nutrients, that leads to obesity. Type II diabetes is caused by insulin resistance, and insulin resistance is caused by the excess storage of fat inside muscle cells: 'intramyocellular lipids', which inhibits insulin receptors. What causes such intracellular fat storage? When we eat a high fat diet, that fat enters our bloodstream (in carriers) and is absorbed by our muscle cells for future energy demands. So persistent, excess fat consumption, especially saturated fats such as animal fats leads to excess fat INSIDE our muscle cells, which then refuse to respond to insulin by absorbing sugar. A low carb, high fat or 'keto' diet thus increases insulin resistance (even if it lowers blood sugar) perpetuating the disease.
4. Cancer and hormones. Processed meats (with nitrites) are potently carcinogenic, higher consumption of those foods a century ago (prior to refrigeration) led to stomach cancer being the #1 killer. Unprocessed red meats are also human carcinogens (independent of how they are cooked), with colon cancer being the strongest association. Dairy products contain significant amounts of bio-active sex hormones and growth factors. Eating dairy transiently increases estrogen and decreases testosterone in the blood of humans. Some of these hormones and growth factors are implicated in cancer progression/growth, with prostrate cancer in men and endometrial cancer in women having the strongest associations.
The major protein in dairy, casein, metabolizes into short chain peptides called casomorphins, that actually engage the same brain receptors as morphine and other narcotics (at about 5% of the potency). There is currently speculation that this might literally make dairy products such as cheese biochemically addictive. This chemistry is probably functional, as it leads to more stable nursing behavior in baby mammals, that are getting a bigger 'hit' from these compounds.
5. Plant proteins and nutrients (e.g. calcium) are sufficient for human dietary needs. We are supposed to eat a lot of dairy to stave off osteoporosis... yet osteoporosis is much rarer in countries around the world where dairy is NOT consumed. Western vegans do not appear to suffer from protein deficiency in detectable numbers, nor do they have unhealthy bone density. Historical studies of plant protein and nutrient absorption appear to have been flawed. Omnivores have a microbiome that is poorly adapted to eating plants and fiber, leading to gas, bloating and poor absorption from many plant foods. Those on a vegan diet get an adapted microbiome (in a week or two) that processes plant foods efficiently, including high absorption!
The exception is B-12. B-12 is made by bacteria, and drinking dirty water would have given ancient people enough B-12. With clean water, vegans must take B-12 supplements or eat fortified or fermented foods.
-------------------------
The takeaway from all of this is that the healthiest diet for humans is a WFPB diet. It is healthier than ovo-lacto vegetarians, or pescatarians, or flexitarians, or whatever.
Corroborating the five findings above:
1) Vegans are the only group to have an average BMI in the Normal range.
2) People eating a WFPB diet have far less CVD (and LDL markers well below govt guidelines). A low-fat WFPB diet has been shown to reverse CVD.
3) Vegans have 78% lower incidence of Diabetes. Many patients report a reversal of disease on a vegan diet.
4) Vegans have about 20% lower incidence of cancer mortality.
5) Vegans have higher blood protein (albumin) and higher blood testosterone than omnivores. Most take B-12 supplements.
------------------------
Now, none of this make me happy at all. I LIKE non-vegan food. But I am going to switch in the New Year.
------------------------
This all begs the question of, if all of the above is something like scientific consensus (and has been for years or decades), why aren't we getting a clear message from the USDA, or the AMA, or the American Heart Association, or the Diabetes Society or the Cancer Society? And instead we get influencers, and snake oil, and the Liver King and Joe Rogan telling us how to eat!
This is where we come to our Green Room trope: Tobacco Lawyers. There are a bunch of people out there being PAID to lobby for unhealthy foods, by agriculture and pharma companies.
Here is a documentary on NetFlix called 'What the Health?' that makes this case: (broken link removed to https://www.netflix.com/watch/80174177)
Many would dismiss it as 'Vegan Propaganda'.
I don't love 'gotcha documentaries', which I think often get things wrong. But given the scientific case around human health, and the lack of action being taken by our govt and medical establishment, I find this one sadly plausible. I think just looking at research funding sources is limited. In the interest of full disclosure, I, woodgeek, have received a $200,000 research grant from the American Petroleum Institute. You may discount all my postings in the Green Room henceforth since I am clearly a shill for the oil industry.
May you all have a Happy and Healthy New Year!
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