Vermont Power Grid Article

[peakbagger]

Vermont Is Remaking its Power Grid to Fight Climate Change | Time

It does skip some details. Power is very expensive in VT and the utilities have underspent billions on upgrading the transmission grid for years. Thus a small storm can cause significant long duration outages. There are numerous small utilities in the state and they run on shoestring budgets, and have to deal with locals who want narrow treelined roads. Thus even more potential for storm outages. VT has allowed renewable owners for years to sell RECs outside the state for renewables but the state also claims the renewable attributes for other purposes. They have gotten their hand slapped for this regionally. VT also tied into the Hydro Quebec system for backup power and claim it as renewable even though its debatable that new HQ generation is actually renewable.

 

[kennyp2339]

Power grids are much the same everywhere in the US, whether its tree's, radial systems vs looped systems, overhead vs underground, sub transmission in a delta configuration vs Y configuration, 7mv vs 22mv substations, its all the same, do less on the same dollar, force improvements to capital to turn a profit and pray for no storms.
In NJ we have issues with tree's, terrain, access to properties and the not in my back yard mentality, we can not improve unless the customers are on board. California - wild fires, PGE just stated that they plan on burying 10,000 miles of transmission and distribution, almost 15 billion dollars which will be funded 100% by the rate payer, electric there will be just as financing a small car, average household will be paying nearly $400.00 a month with no additional load added.

 

[begreen]

PGE just stated that they plan on burying 10,000 miles of transmission and distribution, almost 15 billion dollars which will be funded 100% by the rate payer, electric there will be just as financing a small car, average household will be paying nearly $400.00 a month with no additional load added.

That would have me unplugging from the grid asap.

 

[peakbagger]

Yup, The days of cheap power are going by the wayside. Folks with the cash are going to invest in low energy housing stock and grid independent living. Off grid power used to be doomed to high cost by battery life. Most newbies to off grid murdered their first set of batteries by neglect and misuse. Usually they "get religion" or give up after they have to live over a winter with failing batteries and then writing a $10K to $20K for replacements. Its getting close that surplus EV batteries will end up in homes and they are lot more tolerant of deep discharge, sulfation and poor equalization although they do have their own issues with battery management, hot and cold temps and fire hazard.

The sad thing is the lowest income folks least able to afford it will end up still on the grid paying the surcharges.

 

[ABMax24]

Going off-grid will further exacerbate the problem, less ratepayers to help fund the system will mean higher rates for those that remain.

The other issue I see is poor allocation of resources by going off-grid, most homes have significantly oversized PV systems when offgrid to limit the use of a backup generator during less than ideal conditions, but if that system was grid-tied that unused output could be sold to reduce fossil based generation. Batteries follow the same logic, they could be more beneficial in a grid-tied setup.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to own an off-grid home one day, but on the basis of living outside of urban areas, not on the basis of trying to escape crippling power bills.

 

[SpaceBus]

Going off-grid will further exacerbate the problem, less ratepayers to help fund the system will mean higher rates for those that remain.

The other issue I see is poor allocation of resources by going off-grid, most homes have significantly oversized PV systems when offgrid to limit the use of a backup generator during less than ideal conditions, but if that system was grid-tied that unused output could be sold to reduce fossil based generation. Batteries follow the same logic, they could be more beneficial in a grid-tied setup.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to own an off-grid home one day, but on the basis of living outside of urban areas, not on the basis of trying to escape crippling power bills.

We want to build a large barn/garage/workshop with a south facing roof with a large solar array. The plan would be to have a battery bank in the structure and remain grid tied. Perhaps when we build this structure solar will be able to support three phase power for wood working equipment, but I doubt it, so another reason to stay grid tied.

 

[peakbagger]

Solar does support three phase, you just need a different setup. SMA Sunny Islands are set up for it by using three of them. The alternative is install variable speed drives that take single phase in and output 3 phase. They work but require a lot of current inrush, you will need a big battery. Lithium is best suited for this. Of course unless you have large array getting it charged up will take quite a while.

 

[begreen]

Solar does support three phase, you just need a different setup. SMA Sunny Islands are set up for it by using three of them. The alternative is install variable speed drives that take single phase in and output 3 phase. They work but require a lot of current inrush, you will need a big battery. Lithium is best suited for this. Of course unless you have large array getting it charged up will take quite a while.

Would a digital phase shifter work? I saw one working at an agricultural compost facility. It worked well on their blower system.
Amazon product ASIN B07F2613GN

 

[begreen]

Going off-grid will further exacerbate the problem, less ratepayers to help fund the system will mean higher rates for those that remain.

The other issue I see is poor allocation of resources by going off-grid, most homes have significantly oversized PV systems when offgrid to limit the use of a backup generator during less than ideal conditions, but if that system was grid-tied that unused output could be sold to reduce fossil based generation. Batteries follow the same logic, they could be more beneficial in a grid-tied setup.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to own an off-grid home one day, but on the basis of living outside of urban areas, not on the basis of trying to escape crippling power bills.

I had similar thoughts. Living in a rural area the off-grid option is more appealing, but due to location, we don't have enough winter sun to support a modern household.
FWIW, we have seen this in the past with local water systems. When the rate structure was changed to a tiered system to promote conservation, people aggressively put in water-conserving washers, toilets, etc. The reduced consumption was dramatic and put the company in a financial bind for a while. If it costs about $5000 a year just to be connected, then many are going to be looking at disconnecting. It's just human nature. The real issue however is not with those that can afford to do so, but with those living on the financial edge that can not support this kind of increase.

 

[SpaceBus]

Solar does support three phase, you just need a different setup. SMA Sunny Islands are set up for it by using three of them. The alternative is install variable speed drives that take single phase in and output 3 phase. They work but require a lot of current inrush, you will need a big battery. Lithium is best suited for this. Of course unless you have large array getting it charged up will take quite a while.

I had always assumed it would be incredibly impractical for three phase solar, especially with the storage requirements. I'd really like a four sided planer moulder and an electric power head for my Logosol mill so I'll have to stay grid connected or buy the single phase versions.

 

[peakbagger]

I had always assumed it would be incredibly impractical for three phase solar, especially with the storage requirements. I'd really like a four sided planer moulder and an electric power head for my Logosol mill so I'll have to stay grid connected or buy the single phase versions.

Time to see if three phase runs down the road in front of your place? Single phase not great for high horsepower applications.

 

[SpaceBus]

Time to see if three phase runs down the road in front of your place? Single phase not great for high horsepower applications.

I'm pretty sure three phase runs at least at the road and Versant owns all the poles up to the one near my house. Less than a half mile down the road there is a boat shop that has serious equipment and a seafood packing plant not too much further the other way. Logosol makes single phase versions of their molder and electric powerhead, but I know the three phase versions are better.

 

[peakbagger]

FYI, the utility usually charges a bundle to install three phase and a monthly fee.

 

[SpaceBus]

FYI, the utility usually charges a bundle to install three phase and a monthly fee.

It's probably never going to be worth it for me, so I'll probably settle for the the single phase versions.

 

[begreen]

It's probably never going to be worth it for me, so I'll probably settle for the the single phase versions.

If unplugging from the grid, perhaps a used diesel or propane 3 phase generator could be found. Or if you have a tractor they make 3 phase PTO generators.

 

[SpaceBus]

If unplugging from the grid, perhaps a used diesel or propane 3 phase generator could be found. Or if you have a tractor they make 3 phase PTO generators.

That sounds like a much better plan. Most three phase generators are pretty pricey, but I didn't know about PTO generators.

 

[begreen]

Yes, they are, but not uncommon at industrial auctions, especially in the midwest.
A 27kW Winco 120/240v PTO is about $3700 new. eBay had cheaper kits.

 

[ABMax24]

There's definitely ways to do 3-phase offgrid, Victron makes inverters that can be daisy chained and also setup for 3 phase, but it would really quickly add up to over $10k just for inverters on a reasonable sized setup, a 3-phase generator or phase converter are much more cost effective options.

A used light plant might be one of the more cost effective 3 phase generators around, piles of them around and its not uncommon to see 10,000hrs on those motors with little more than valve lash adjustments and oil changes for maintenance, and compared to a gasoline generator they sip fuel.

 

[ABMax24]

I had similar thoughts. Living in a rural area the off-grid option is more appealing, but due to location, we don't have enough winter sun to support a modern household.
FWIW, we have seen this in the past with local water systems. When the rate structure was changed to a tiered system to promote conservation, people aggressively put in water-conserving washers, toilets, etc. The reduced consumption was dramatic and put the company in a financial bind for a while. If it costs about $5000 a year just to be connected, then many are going to be looking at disconnecting. It's just human nature. The real issue however is not with those that can afford to do so, but with those living on the financial edge that can not support this kind of increase.

Offgrid in winter would definitely be a struggle here without significant reliance on a backup generator, its something I've thought about a lot. My line of thought leads me to a liquid cooled RV generator that I could extract the heat from for use in the house, I'd also build a heat exchanger on the exhaust to capture more waste heat and funnel it to the house, essentially a rudimentary co-gen setup. Unless some kind of TEG could be attached to a wood stove.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall on some of those construction projects to understand where some of these upgrade costs come from. I just don't understand how there can be so many upgrades to cost rate payers hundreds of dollars extra per month, I have a hard time believing the money isn't being squandered or there isn't some kind of corruption on the construction side that drastically inflates cost. Our grid serves some of the least populous regions on the continent, and it's also one of the fastest growing requiring frequent upgrades and expansions, yet we pay reasonable rates for power.

The other issue I see is energy education, in a lot of instances those least financially able to cope with higher utility costs also don't understand how their utility bills work; how consumption influences cost, and how lifestyle and appliance use decisions influence consumption.

 

[SpaceBus]

Yes, they are, but not uncommon at industrial auctions, especially in the midwest.
A 27kW Winco 120/240v PTO is about $3700 new. eBay had cheaper kits.

I was just looking at Winco models last night. The prices are pretty reasonable, but there are few, if any, ag equipment auctions around here.

 

[peakbagger]

Most of the old sawmills have gas or diesel power plants with the mill running off belts and the four side board planer running off belts from one engine. Seeing an old line shaft based sawmill is an impressive piece of work. Its heck of lot easier to run wires than line shafts so modern mills use electric equipment fed by the grid.

As for power upgrades, its all specialized equipment and not cheap. High voltage work requires specialized tools, training and equipment. Line work is typically a "young mans game" and like any other trade there are probably more retiring than are replacing. Contractors that do the work are specialized and require a lot of expensive equipment. Union versus non union also is an issue. Many tradesmen working for those firms can make six figure incomes but its hard work living out of temporary housing and working out in the weather.

Much of the grid in the US is radial design where the power was produced at big power plants and sent in one direction to the customers. Renewable tends to be decentralized all over the place and the grid was not designed to handle it. In order to do so, it means a lot more transmission lines and in the US with a lot more private land, getting a right of way and clearance to build can take years. There was a proposal in my state, New Hampshire, to build a 1000 MW transmission line from Quebec to supply Massachusetts. Even though the local utility owned many transmission line corridors in the state it was a 5 year process that failed. The line if built would end up costing in the 1.6 billion range and the utility spent 320 million to permit it. They were shoveling money at landowners to get a right of way and groups opposing the project would buy land that would block it. it was game of checkers with several hundred acre blocks and the final alignment was snake going 30 plus miles out the way to avoid land they were blocked from. The utility was paying 5 to 10 times the market value for lots in rural areas and many of them were useless in a couple of months since the route that needed the lot was blocked downstream by an opponent. (The utility has not said what they are going to do with those lots now that the project is dead.) Every inch of the proposed right of way needed detailed environmental and archeologic assessment. Any wetlands would need to be mitigated by buying additional wetlands outside the project that get permanent protection and in most cases the soils end up needing to be protected during construction with wooden mats made out of log cants bolted together. They need to be purchased, transported to yard and then hauled into the woods to build a road without touching the soil underneath. When done they all come out the same way they came in.

There is similar project in Maine currently under limited construction that got rights to 98% of the right of way that is still having issues with the 2% they didnt buy with several lawsuits and citizen referendums to stop the project. In order to support a decentralized grid, its going to take tens if not hundreds of thousands of miles of high voltage transmission as well a major substation modifications all over the country.

I do small CHP plants for a living and the biggest hassle by far is the utility interconnect process. We have to deal with understaffed utility bureaucracies and every thing take months if not years. In many cases we have to connect to utility substations that were not designed to have power go backwards out to the grid. It can take 18 months or longer to get the substation to have that capability. We can get the plant built and ready to run in far less time than it can take to connect to the grid. In one case the process did not go well and our plant had to run at half capacity for 6 months until the utility finished the upgrades. Of course the utility rightfully points out that do it wrong and people can die and everything they do is effectively there "forever" so they need to do it once and do it right. The utility we work with is forced to do this by the state of Mass, smaller local utilities sometimes just refuse to allow anyone to pump power back into their grid.