Vogelzang Ponderosa

[Bthacker]

Thank you for letting me on this forum and appoligise for the long post.
I traded a friend for a old vogelzang box stove and decided to install it just for cold nights but watch it while it burned. Well that got old quick and wanted to upgrade to something I could burn 24 hours a day and feel safe in leaving home with it burning. Also something more efficient and use less wood and not have to stoke as often. I would have to stoke it ever 2 hours. I am in a very rural area and not many stoves available. I researched several stoves and because of the low quality of the vogelzang boxwood stove I did not want one. I researched the stoves I could buy locally and also what I could afford and the vogelzang kept coming up.

So I thought I would go look at one because the reviews were good and I wound up buying one, the Ponderosa. It really looked good and like the large fire box, the large glass and that it set up off the floor a little higher. I got it here and installed it in place of the old boxwood stove and thought now I have a real stove. I was excited. A stove that I will not have to stoke ever 2 hours, one that will heat the house nicely and I will not be worried about burning down the house. The old boxwood stove would produce a lot of heat compaired to this new stove.

Well I built the first fire in it and did not seam to want to burn. If I left the door open till it got really hot and most of the wood was burnt up I could close the door without it putting out the fire. It only burnt about 2 hours at a very low flame and quit. All the wood I put in it was charcoal. I contacted vogelzang and they told me that the wood I was burning was too wet. I am used to the stoves I grew up with that you could put wet wood in and still burn. Most of my wood had seasoned sense last summer so I felt it should be good but I purchased a moisture meter. Most of my wood was between 10% to around 16% except the wood that I cut from my old barn that fell and it was built back in the 50s. That stuff was like 4% to 6%. So I call them back and they tell me that sense I only have 12 feet of flu pipe I need 15 feet so I go buy another section. By the way I have durovent pipe and it goes straight up and out the roof. No twists or turns. I added the pipe and things got worse. Wood would turn into charcoal in about 1 hour.

So I call them again and they tell me I need to call a NFI person to come out and certify my installation.I talked with the NFI person and I explained my installation on the phone and he told me that my installation was good. I called them back and told them what he said and then they tell me that I needed to put a draft meter on it and it should be between .05 to .06 WC anymore than that and it would turn the wood into ash leaving no charcoal, I would have loved it to do that because after 10 hours of burning there is so much charcoal that you cannot get any more wood in the firebox. I purchased a Dwyer Mark II Manometer and my draft was .11. I removed the section of pipe that I had put on it and it went back down to .07WC. I called them back and now they are telling me my house is too tight and I need a fresh air kit. Now I live in a 1940 vintage old farm house that if I try to light a cigarette and the wind is blowing out side it will blow out the flame on my bic lighter. Every time I light the stove I can get the fire to where it is almost leaping out the front of the stove and shut the door and it will either go out or go down to the point to where it is barely burning. On a day where the weather is below 30 degrees my main heat will kick on. The house is roughly 1000sf. I have tried starter logs to get the fire going and if you shut the door they will go out. I am out of ideas. The NFI person told me right off the bat that the stove is not getting enough air into the firebox. I have even tried with the glass sliding door on the left side of the stove open and the window on the right open and no change so I know my house is not too tight. My draft with the stove burning high with the door open will run about .07 to .08WC .07 with the firebox door closed. The wood I am burning is oak, ash, some pine and elm. The elm was cut down 2 years ago and I am running out of wood so I am burning it. Surprising enough it burns better than the oak but it is power dry. All my wood is kept either with the top covered with a tarp or inside my covered porch.

I don't know where to go to from here and wondering if any of you have an idea what will make this stove burn properly?

Thank You

 

[tarzan]

You should be checking the moisture of your wood on the fresh face of a fresh split piece.

Baring some type of unlikely obstruction that I wouldn't suspect do to to your manometer readings, it sounds like your wood is not dry. EPA approved stoves need wood that is dry. 24% moisture would be at the high end.

You should get a stove top thermometer to give you an idea what is going on. In general the draft should remain open until the fire is going well then closed in about 1/3 increments until you settle in at your sweet spot fully or close to fully closed.

 

[jetsam]

I'm not familiar with that stove, but you have dry to extremely dry wood and okay draft.

If the fire goes out with the air wide open and the door shut, I would maybe suspect that the something is interfering with air coming into the stove.

Are you sure you have the air open all the way? Push both controls all the way in towards the stove before shutting the door. (They recommend opening up the primary air (left) and shutting down the "high burn" air (right) to start a fire, but if the fire was smothering I'd try opening both to see if that helps.)

That stove also has an air intake on the bottom of the firebox; make sure you're not blocking it.

 

[jatoxico]

Also check that the ceramic blanket on top of the secondary tubes is sitting flat and not obstructing gas flow.

 

[Bthacker]

None of my wood is over 16% on the face. I have tried the controls in every position there is. I have taken my craftsman 5hp shop vac and went over every air intake and outlet it has. I once got out a bunch of sut and some construction stuff and thought now I have it but it still does the same thing. All my wood is cut, split and stacked while green and let season while cover on the top but the sides open.

 

[Bthacker]

ceramic blanket is flat and where is should be.

 

[Bthacker]

I don't think that the tubes at the top of the stove is getting little to no air. The stove when I can get it to burn a little acts like a conventional stove. The fire does not circulate around like a EPA stove should. You see very little to no air coming from the top tubes and the fire licks up the flue port like the air ports right in front of the flue port is blowing no air. The glass stays messed up because the air wash does not work.

 

[jatoxico]

From what I recollect I don't think the Ponderosa is a bad unit. Check the cap to be certain but since it's drafting it's unlikely it's clogged. Everything else then could normally be accounted for due to to wet wood.

If it will burn with the door open and won't w/ it closed (and there's no obstruction) it's the wood or possibly operation. Can you confirm the air controls are working?

 

[vanubee]

I have a vogelzang ponderosa - I've only had it for about 2 months now. Do you start up your fires with the air intakes fully open, and then adjusting them accordingly?

 

[Bthacker]

From what I recollect I don't think the Ponderosa is a bad unit. Check the cap to be certain but since it's drafting it's unlikely it's clogged. Everything else then could normally be accounted for due to to wet wood.

If it will burn with the door open and won't w/ it closed (and there's no obstruction) it's the wood or possibly operation. Can you confirm the air controls are working?

From the reviews it is a well liked stove. I have sweep the flue pipe and cleaned the top cap. The wood I am burning is below the 20% moisture content that they recommend. The dryer the wood the better it burns but wood at 4 to 6% goes up like a match and like everything you burn turns to charcoal. Wood that is 11 to 14% should burn fine, it is well below the 20% they recommend. Some of the wood I have been burning was fell and processed 2 years ago and has been stacked and covered.
Vanubee I have tried ever combination with both levers that is out there. Both full in, both full out. High out, main full in. I have tried it all and does not matter. When you close the door about 15 to 20 seconds it will go out. Even the starter logs that you buy at the store that suppose to burn 3 hours will go out. Dry cardboard that I use to start it will go out. How I start it is put a starter log in, then kenneling then a couple small stuff. I light it and let it burn until all is on fire and the fire box is full of fire and burning well. I slowly close the door leaving it barely shut but not sealed and let things heat for about 5 or so mins. Then slowly push the latch fully closed and within 15 to 20 seconds it will go out or go down to just a very small burn. Like 1/10 is burning but a blue flame and very small. The rest will just smolder, no fire. Lots of smoke out of the flue. If I do get it burning some the top almost never lights. If it does it is very weak and will burn a second and go out then a flame will jump across it again and again until it finally goes out. During this stage I have tried the levers in every position I can get them in and most of the time it helps it go out. Pull the high burn with the top burning just a little and it will go out.

 

[jatoxico]

Can you post some pics and describe the chimney (length, size etc)? Just a bunch of shot-gun questions see if anything sticks; Is this a basement install? How did you measure draft exactly? Could the pipe be too deep into the stove's flue collar causing an obstruction? What are the outside temps?

 

[moresnow]

Using 8" flue by chance?

 

[Bthacker]

I am using 6 inch Durovent flue. I have a connector section on top of the stove that is about 1 foot long. I have 2 2ft. sections of regular 6in. flue pipe running to the ceiling where it connects to a 1 foot section of connector that connects to the durovent triple wall pipe. 2 3ft. sections of triple wall pipe out the roof to the top cap. I have about 4ft. from the roof to the topcap. My roof is a low slope roof and the topcap is right about level with the top of the roof ridge. The manometer is connected using a piece of brake line drilled and sealed into the connector pipe about 6in. from the top of the stove. (see pictures). Now in the pictures of the manometer was taken when I had 3 sections of triple wall pipe but now I only have two because of the high reading and it needing feed every hour. I took the 3rd section back off to get my reading back down to .07WC. I know this is .01WC over what the manual calls for but for now this is close enough. what the manual calls for. ( .05 to .06) Single level house setting where the roof and the ceiling are at there closest point. I have the joints of the single wall pipe sealed with high temp silicone but for vogelzang's sake I put the silver duct tape so they could see I had things sealed. These are the

 

[jatoxico]

OK so you probably will get some flak on the install from a safety point of view. I certainly don't want to minimize that but want to focus on the question at hand (there are people w/ better knowledge about installs than me anyway). If you are dripping water and creosote from your pipe joints I'm guessing they are upside down.

Regarding the moisture meter readings you're not doing it right. Reading should be taken on room temperature splits that have been freshly split again just prior to reading and not from the ends.

Cold wood, end readings and readings taken from the face but not freshly split will all cause false low readings on the meter. You want to get a reading of the "heart" of the split or round not one from the exposed exterior which will read low after only a couple days drying time.

Draft measurements were taken while stove was operating?

 

[jetsam]

Using 8" flue by chance?

The manual says you can use 6" through 10" for install, which made me raise my eyebrows.

Need to find out if the wood is wet or not. Split a aplit off the pile you've been burning, take it in and let it warm up, then use the meter on the fresh split.

If it's not that it must be an air problem. Given your manometer readings I don't think that's likely (if the stove's air was all plugged up, you would have low manometer readings with the door closed, not high-normal ones).

I hate it when people jump straight to 'wet wood', but uh.... test the wood at room temp on a fresh split.

 

[jatoxico]

I hate it when people jump straight to 'wet wood', but uh.... test the wood at room temp on a fresh split.

What are you gonna do?, excessive coaling, fire going out after closing the door and blacked up glass are all classic wet wood symptoms.

 

[begreen]

Although I suspect the wood is not dry enough I'm also wondering what the total flue system height is? It looks to be about 12 ft which would be insufficient. There should be a minimum of 15 ft. total (stove pipe and chimney). A shorter stack may draft sort of ok at cold temps, but probably will be poor at milder outdoor temps.

As for safety, the hearth pad is too small and doesn't meet the mfg. requirements. Also, metal tape does not belong on stove pipe. And I see creosote dripping which indicates possible damp wood but it also could be that the pipe is installed upside down. The crimped end of the stove pipe should be pointed down, toward the stove.

 

[jetsam]

What are you gonna do?

Given that we have a normal-highish manometer reading with the door closed, I think the wood is the last stop, unless the manometer reading was no good for one reason or another.

The only thing that bugs me about this is that he said one of the woods he was burning was 60 year old wood from a defunct barn, stored under a tarp. How wet is that really going to be?

Curious to see how this resolves!

Edit: Actually, that top left round looks like it was pretty wet when it went in.

 

[jatoxico]

Given that we have a normal-highish manometer reading with the door closed, I think the wood is the last stop, unless the manometer reading was no good for one reason or another.

The only thing that bugs me about this is that he said one of the woods he was burning was 60 year old wood from a defunct barn, stored under a tarp. How wet is that really going to be?

Curious to see how this resolves!

Yes agreed the draft readings sound right but also agree w/ BG that 12' is minimal. I'm not sure what the proper way to take draft readings is. Seems to me they would vary greatly over the burn cycle if done while operating but that may be best, IDK.

If the weather has been warm lately by the OP and the draft is marginal and the wood is OK but not great it may all add up to a sucky day.

 

[tarzan]

Jetsam, don't hate when people go straight to wet wood

You can search the past threads on this site and see a pattern of "help, my new EPA approved stove won't burn" and wet wood.

Nothing wrong with suggesting there wood is not dry enough since in the majority of cases it isn't. Most people who have burned in an old smoke dragon or, not at all, simply don't know better and usually are using there moisture meters wrong when they say there wood is of very low moisture reading.

 

[jetsam]

Jetsam, don't hate when people go straight to wet wood

You can search the past threads on this site and see a pattern of "help, my new EPA approved stove won't burn" and wet wood.

Nothing wrong with suggesting there wood is not dry enough since in the majority of cases it isn't. Most people who have burned in an old smoke dragon or, not at all, simply don't know better and usually are using there moisture meters wrong when they say there wood is of very low moisture reading.

I'm juat touchy because I burned wet wood this season

I've already made a couple wrong guesses at problems that eventually turned out to be wet wood, so I already know I'm a dope on this topic.

I do appreciate all you old burners setting me straight as needed.

 

[jatoxico]

One other thing, you have no thermometers on the stove or flue pipe. To me that's like driving a car w/o gauges (I hate when cars cheap out on the instrument panel). At the very least get a stove top thermometer. Since you have a free standing stove might as well probe for the flue gas temp while you're at it.

 

[Bthacker]

First off the dampness you see is from the glue on the tape. They were questioning the seal on my pipe because I wiped off the excess with alcohol to keep it from showing. I put that tape on it for the pictures to show them the joints were sealed and the heat made the glue run. My joints are tight, I just had to show them that they were tight and not leaking. I have two extra sections to replace them with if or when we get this figured out. Don't like that tape showing but had to do what I had to do to get my point across. The wood you saw was a quick picture because it was very cold that day and my wood spliter was in the back of the barn and I would have had to move a bunch of junk to get to it, then start the tractor and hook everything up plus my old Ford does not like cold weather and I would have had to ether it off to get it started and so on and after having a massive heart attack I just did not feel like going through all that.
At 12 feet I am getting close to the correct WC that they are calling for. .05 to .06 inches WC. With 15 feet I was getting .11 inches WC which they are saying is way to high and was told by vegelzang to lower it. So I removed a section and got it down to .07 inches WC which is a little high but closer that .11. My wood is split into small pieces and seasoned for 1 year either with a tarp on top and sides open for air flow or on my covered porch. Some has been seasoned for 2 years. Not all is oak. Some is ash, some is pine (not much) and some is hickory. I had a little popular but not much and a few bits maple.
The pipe is not up side down, the system was just cleaned by a person who does this for a living and he told me that it was not very bad at all and really did not need to be cleaned but because of the trouble I have been having I told him to go ahead and clean it any way. The top hat had some buildup on it but not very bad. He told me he had seen way worse.

 

[Bthacker]

One other thing, you have no thermometers on the stove or flue pipe. To me that's like driving a car w/o gauges (I hate when cars cheap out on the instrument panel). At the very least get a stove top thermometer. Since you have a free standing stove might as well probe for the flue gas temp while you're at it.

Have infrared thermometer

 

[tarzan]

I'm juat touchy because I burned wet wood this season

I've already made a couple wrong guesses at problems that eventually turned out to be wet wood, so I already know I'm a dope on this topic.

I do appreciate all you old burners setting me straight as needed.

I know your burning wet wood thankfully to you though, your experience has been more the exception than the rule.

I may be completely wrong about this one (wouldn't be the first time) but from past experiences it's rarely the stoves fault and his draft sounds within reason. What's left?

We don't know how long that old barn laid on the ground before the wood was cut up and stacked either. From what I have witnessed, (from the kids bringing in firewood and dropping a piece here and there) a couple weeks lying on the ground can undo years of drying.