what all would be involved in getting a big freestanding woodstove into this fireplace?

[twd000]

I inherited a Dutchwest XL in the basement when I bought this house, but it's really only going to be good for the occasional basement heating duties. I can't get the burn cycle flattened out enough for reliable whole-house space heating, and I can't be running down there 4x a day to keep a low burn going.

So I'm planning ahead for next year, and putting a freestanding woodstove on the main living floor. Main floor is 1200 sqft, second floor 1200 sqft, finished basement 600 sqft. So I'm looking at heating 2400 sqft, and it is just fine (desirable) that the bedrooms will be cooler for sleeping. There are two fireplaces; fireplace B in the TV room, where we spend lots of time, and fireplace A in the den where we don't really spend any time. Fireplace B would be nice for the flameshow, but pushing that heat all the way to the kitchen seems unlikely. Fireplace A in the den is in a more central location for distribution, and it would actually be OK if that room is slightly overheated since we're not in there a lot.

I'm looking to go big here; ideally using wood heat to take over 80%+ of my year-round space-heating demand. That means plenty of shoulder season days in the 50's and plenty of February nights in the single digits. I have access to a mix of white pine and red oak, and I don't mind using the right tool for the job based on the burn cycle and weather. Ideally a predictable 24-hour burn cycle for 4 months straight, keeping the main floor within 68-75F. 12 hour cycle is less convenient for my work schedule, but I could make it work. From what I'm reading here, Blaze King makes the stoves that fit these requirements.

Given the short height of my existing fireplace, what are my options for a Blaze King? I've looked at the King and Princess dimensions, and I'm not sure if the base option affects the height. Do I need to punch through the existing fireplace with a thimble install, or can I fit one under the lintel? I will probably have the install done professionally, but I'd like to see a similar build thread so I know what to ask for. I'll make sure to minimize 90-degree bends, install a block-off place and insulation, etc.

Double-wall stainless liner - flex or rigid? Best brand out there? Insulation between pipe walls, or between pipe and terracotta tiles?
How far out do I need to extend the hearth? The current bricks extend about 3/4" above the wood flooring. Can I get away with a brick/tile heart pad, or do I need to remove wood flooring and extend the existing brick?

I found a BK dealer in Epping NH so I'll take a trip to their showroom and see what the options look like in person. Any tips on getting a good deal? I'm willing to dial around and drive a few hours to pick it up if I need to. Any spring discounts expected on a upscale product like this, or just pay sticker price? Wise to have the local shop handle the install, or use the local CSIA sweep?

 

[twd000]

some photos of fireplace A

 

[Ashful]

More later, but don't discount how well a stove can heat a house from a far corner, if kept going 24/7. You won't be able to warm a cold house and get it equalized in any reasonable time, that way, but if you're not worried about that...

I have a BK Ashford 30 stuck in two of my fireplaces, at opposite ends of the house. Not recommending two big stoves for only 1200 sq.ft. per floor, but just saying I have some experience heating from one end of the house. Not ideal, but it can work.

 

[Poindexter]

eeek. Those don't look like pre-fabs. Am I correct those are all brick, no sheet metal box in there? Looks like they run pretty good too, I don't see smoke stains on the brickwork on either one of them.

You are asking smart questions, and you are even smarter to ask them before you bring your sledgehammer in from the garage. Let me ask you some questions.

If you didn't have the two fireplaces, where would you put the stove and the flue and the chimney as a new install? Given that you seem to have good working units that aren't ugly, this is worth looking into before you commit. I have never personally put in a chimney liner, but they give me the heebie-jeebies.

How many BTUs are you using to heat the joint now? How many cords of wood are you going to have to process annually to meet 80% of that? 150 million give or take? If you are over 200M BTU average for the trailing three years you might oughta look at air leaks and insulation, just saying. In the last three years you more or less have one average, one El Nino and one Polar Vortex.

Is it legal, in your jurisdiction, to run an exhaust pipe for a pellet stove up through your existing fireplace chimney? Some places it is, some places it isn't. I am personally not a fan of pellets, I can't make them in the garage, but they make economic sense in some situations. If it isn't legal to run a pellet pipe up the chimney, punching a 4" hole through an exterior wall isn't that expensive. You probably have more than one pellet factory competing for your dollars, I only have one pellet factory this side of Canada. There is a veritable host of pellet stoves sized for your needs.

I _personally_ am opposed to fireplace inserts. A cordwood stove is putting out heat on six different surfaces, I just don't see any reason to use five of those surfaces to heat bricks. It just can't be as efficient as a freestanding stove. Just can't.

I don't think your existing hearths are going to meet code even with an insert. I think the US standard is 16" from the front of the loading door, and maybe 18 or 20" in Canada. I have 22" of hearth in front of mine and I wish I had another foot. In real life embers pop out of there and either land on the hearth or mess up the carpet. With a wider hearth, I would have a nice big really warm surface to stand on when my feet are cold, and no burns in the carpet.

Flooring will depend on the stove(s) you pick for the hearth. If you go with stoves that require ember protection only, you can (probably) extend your current hearths on top of the wood flooring out to code width. If you pick stoves that need an R value hearth, you'll likely have to remove the wood flooring to have enough room to put in R value hearth out to minimum 16" in front of the opening of the loading door...

Ashfuls idea about running two moderate sized stoves instead of one big one should be taken seriously as well. If you are going to be in the house long enough you'll probably be glad for it. I have 1200sqft up and another 1200sqft at ground level now. I "supplement" my oil furnace upstairs pretty vigorously, keep the downstairs at about 55-60dF with oil. My floor plan is not at all conducive, but even if I added a second stair well to create a convection loop and tried running one big stove I would have a sauna in the stove room and some very chilly bedrooms.

You could look at a moderately large BK to run Sept-Apr and then put a less expensive EPA cert non cat in the other location to burn hot and fast a time or two daily in the other location in Dec-Feb, maybe.

 

[kennyp2339]

I personally feel that you will get better heating results with fire place "A" the only big problem I see is the existing height of the fire place, what ever you choose make sure it can fit in there. Also you need to check the hearth clearances in the front of the stove, you may need to extend it, be careful to realize some stoves require a certain r rating. Next is the liner, most choose an insulated flex type and install a block off plate to keep hot air from going up the chimney. If you do go blaze king route you will need an insulated liner regardless because the flue gasses are cool to start with and you want them as warm as possible going to the top of the chimney to reduce condensation and creosote.

 

[Ashful]

Fireplace A is a beauty, but too small to house any free-standing stove of useful size. You'd be looking at inserts, to use that fireplace, and then you have to verify that it meets the requirements for an insert.

Fireplace B may be an option, but where are the dimensions and photos?

On location, most are happy with putting the stove in the room they use most, and then finding ways to move the air about the house, but I do have to agree that somewhere in the den does appear to be most central.

You know your needs and requirements better than anyone here, but to me it looks like I'd be trying to find a way to get a stove or insert into the den, perhaps on the wall separating the den from the dining room. If that's not an option, then I'd be shopping inserts. Second best option might be opening up fireplace A to a height that would make a free-stander practical.

For reference, I have two free-standers tucked back into fireplaces. The fireplace with the 60" high lintel is very nice to use. The fireplace with the 50" lintel results in a lot of head bumps.

 

[begreen]

One option may be to install rear-vent freestanding stoves if the lintel height is high enough. The hearth can be extended flush with the floor or almost flush if the stove requirements are ember protection only. What is the lintel height of these fireplaces?

 

[twd000]

More later, but don't discount how well a stove can heat a house from a far corner, if kept going 24/7. You won't be able to warm a cold house and get it equalized in any reasonable time, that way, but if you're not worried about that...

I have a BK Ashford 30 stuck in two of my fireplaces, at opposite ends of the house. Not recommending two big stoves for only 1200 sq.ft. per floor, but just saying I have some experience heating from one end of the house. Not ideal, but it can work.

I haven't totally discounted that idea. Trying to avoid a fleet of noisy fans blowing 24/7 and a freezing kitchen. If you think I can make it work with my floorplan, I'm all ears.

 

[twd000]

eeek. Those don't look like pre-fabs. Am I correct those are all brick, no sheet metal box in there? Looks like they run pretty good too, I don't see smoke stains on the brickwork on either one of them.

Yes, custom-built solid brick work. Not sheet metal. They work fine, as far as fireplaces go. We use them sparingly, since I see an open fireplace as a way to convert my hard-won wood into pretty dancing flames instead of HEAT!

If you didn't have the two fireplaces, where would you put the stove and the flue and the chimney as a new install? Given that you seem to have good working units that aren't ugly, this is worth looking into before you commit. I have never personally put in a chimney liner, but they give me the heebie-jeebies.

Given a blank sheet of paper, I would probably remove the walls between the kitchen/den/dining rooms and center a woodstove straight up through the ceiling right smack dab in the middle of that open space. Trying to avoid a $100k remodeling exercise; the house is "pretty nice" as-is.

How many BTUs are you using to heat the joint now? How many cords of wood are you going to have to process annually to meet 80% of that? 150 million give or take? If you are over 200M BTU average for the trailing three years you might oughta look at air leaks and insulation, just saying. In the last three years you more or less have one average, one El Nino and one Polar Vortex.

150 MBTU? I've only lived in this house for 6 months, but I'm estimating 60 MBTU space heating load, details of my calculations here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/efficiency-assumptions-when-comparing-fuel-costs.152309/
The house is fairly tight for 1974-vintage. Double-pane windows are about 5 years old. Attic insulation is decent, although I may look into air-sealing the top plates.
80% of that is 3 cords of oak, or 5 cords of pine. I can handle that workload; I'm in my mid-30s. Even as I get old and start buying wood C/S/S I would be saving $700/year at current prices.

Is it legal, in your jurisdiction, to run an exhaust pipe for a pellet stove up through your existing fireplace chimney? Some places it is, some places it isn't. I am personally not a fan of pellets, I can't make them in the garage, but they make economic sense in some situations. If it isn't legal to run a pellet pipe up the chimney, punching a 4" hole through an exterior wall isn't that expensive. You probably have more than one pellet factory competing for your dollars, I only have one pellet factory this side of Canada. There is a veritable host of pellet stoves sized for your needs.

I have no idea about legal codes in this area. I have avoided researching pellet stoves for similar reasons as you mentioned. If I'm going to run a fuel source that has been packaged, processed, commoditized, and financialized, it's going to involve me setting the Tstat on my propane furnace and not hauling bags of fuel!

I _personally_ am opposed to fireplace inserts. A cordwood stove is putting out heat on six different surfaces, I just don't see any reason to use five of those surfaces to heat bricks. It just can't be as efficient as a freestanding stove. Just can't.

I agree. I'm looking for maximum efficiency here, not nibbling away at my propane bill.

Ashfuls idea about running two moderate sized stoves instead of one big one should be taken seriously as well. If you are going to be in the house long enough you'll probably be glad for it. I have 1200sqft up and another 1200sqft at ground level now. I "supplement" my oil furnace upstairs pretty vigorously, keep the downstairs at about 55-60dF with oil. My floor plan is not at all conducive, but even if I added a second stair well to create a convection loop and tried running one big stove I would have a sauna in the stove room and some very chilly bedrooms.

You could look at a moderately large BK to run Sept-Apr and then put a less expensive EPA cert non cat in the other location to burn hot and fast a time or two daily in the other location in Dec-Feb, maybe.

Two installs would make me question the payback period of this plan. I'm thinking $5-6k for one install, which is a 3-5 year payback period. Doubling that time is a tough sell, given the uncertainty with fuel prices, etc.

 

[twd000]

Fireplace A is a beauty, but too small to house any free-standing stove of useful size. You'd be looking at inserts, to use that fireplace, and then you have to verify that it meets the requirements for an insert.

Fireplace B may be an option, but where are the dimensions and photos?

On location, most are happy with putting the stove in the room they use most, and then finding ways to move the air about the house, but I do have to agree that somewhere in the den does appear to be most central.

You know your needs and requirements better than anyone here, but to me it looks like I'd be trying to find a way to get a stove or insert into the den, perhaps on the wall separating the den from the dining room. If that's not an option, then I'd be shopping inserts. Second best option might be opening up fireplace A to a height that would make a free-stander practical.

For reference, I have two free-standers tucked back into fireplaces. The fireplace with the 60" high lintel is very nice to use. The fireplace with the 50" lintel results in a lot of head bumps.

Sorry I will post details on Fireplace B tonight; I think the lintel is at 30" or so. What I had in mind was putting a freestanding stove in FRONT of Fireplace A, building out the hearth, etc. not tucking it into the cavity. Coming here to ask about options for running the stove pipe, either through the damper opening, or straight up to the mantle, then turning and punching through the brick to tie into the flue.

 

[bholler]

I have never personally put in a chimney liner, but they give me the heebie-jeebies.

What exactly do you mean?

Is it legal, in your jurisdiction, to run an exhaust pipe for a pellet stove up through your existing fireplace chimney? Some places it is, some places it isn't.

I have never heard of anywhere that wont allow a liner for pellets to be put inside an existing chimney but he is not looking at pellets anyway.

I _personally_ am opposed to fireplace inserts. A cordwood stove is putting out heat on six different surfaces, I just don't see any reason to use five of those surfaces to heat bricks. It just can't be as efficient as a freestanding stove. Just can't.

While you are right in some cases these are internal fireplaces from what i can see so any heat given up to the masonry structure will still end up in the house. A freestanding stove will give off heat much faster then an insert without a fan but inserts can heat very well.

 

[twd000]

One option may be to install rear-vent freestanding stoves if the lintel height is high enough. The hearth can be extended flush with the floor or almost flush if the stove requirements are ember protection only. What is the lintel height of these fireplaces?

yes, that is my ideal scenario. Lintel height on Fireplace A is 29" at the peak of the arch. Pretty low which is why I want to come to hearth.com and see what my options are.

 

[bholler]

I think fireplace a would be a better option for heat distribution. You always have the option of putting in a thimble above the fireplace and that would allow you to use just about any stove you want.

As far as liners go the only type i would absolutely avoid is the 2-ply smooth wall stuff in my opinion it is junk. For wood we always use heavy wall flex liner. It lasts 30+ years unless it is abused. Plain old light wall works fine but will not last as long. Rigid is a good liner but i think it is a pain in the ass to install and you chimney needs to be straight. The insulation either wrap or preinsulated is best for a fireplace.

 

[electrathon]

Your fireplace looks a lot like mine. I have a large Hearthstone stove sitting part way into the opening, rear vented, stainless liner. I had to replace the hearth in the floor, in my case I installed a solid slab of granite in place of the old tiles. The biggest negative to this set up is that in order to clean the chimney I have to pull the stove out. It is heavy. Look at my avatar for a picture. There are also other pictures in other threads I have posted if you search my name.

 

[bholler]

The biggest negative to this set up is that in order to clean the chimney I have to pull the stove out.

Cant you pull the baffle and clean through the stove we do that with a few hearthstones in setups like yours.

 

[electrathon]

Cant you pull the baffle and clean through the stove we do that with a few hearthstones in setups like yours.

If it exited the top I could, but the rear pipe goes to a T behind the stove. Even with the stove out I have to remove the T and then push the brush up past the S bends into the main chimney run.

 

[Poindexter]

@bholler, I don't disagree. My winters up here are extreme enough to slant me towards wanting an absolutely straight run of pipe I can brush myself without having to shut the stove down waiting for a pro, and I want every BTU I can get out of the stove in the house, right now.

Never lived in New Hampshire, don't know how "temperate" the southern end of the state might be.

If the OP is willing, a new hearth in front of the existing one with a free standing stove on it, a fireplace block off to stop air flow and then a thimble up close to the ceiling would get him a freestanding stove and likely enough vertical pipe off the stove collar to choose about any stove he wanted.

How troublesome is it to install - and then clean regularly- a liner that starts say 6 or 7 feet off the floor and runs out through the roof? I am asking because I don't know. If it is economical and has wife approval factor and isn't too big a pain in the neck that might be a good option for the OP, yes?

 

[bholler]

How troublesome is it to install - and then clean regularly- a liner that starts say 6 or 7 feet off the floor and runs out through the roof? I am asking because I don't know. If it is economical and has wife approval factor and isn't too big a pain in the neck that might be a good option for the OP, yes?

If i were to do that i would extend the liner off the bottom of the tee into the fireplace with a cap on the bottom then you could clean from the bottom easily.

My winters up here are extreme enough to slant me towards wanting an absolutely straight run of pipe I can brush myself without having to shut the stove down waiting for a pro

If you can brush a straight run you can brush a liner. No need to wait for a pro. But yes you need to shut it down enough to be able to work with it. But honestly even with your longer burning season you should not have to clean more than twice a year. Down here it is usually once a year

 

[bholler]

I want every BTU I can get out of the stove in the house, right now.

If you burn around the clock what difference does it make? Once that structure is heated up you will be getting consistent heat off of it.

 

[bholler]

If it exited the top I could, but the rear pipe goes to a T behind the stove. Even with the stove out I have to remove the T and then push the brush up past the S bends into the main chimney run.

Our rotary cleaner can go right through that tee then we feed a hose down into the tee cap to clean it out. I would absolutely not be moving a soapstone stove out every year.

 

[begreen]

yes, that is my ideal scenario. Lintel height on Fireplace A is 29" at the peak of the arch. Pretty low which is why I want to come to hearth.com and see what my options are.

I think the side-loading Woodstock Progress Hybrid comes in at 26" with the short leg option. Their front-loading Ideal Steel is worth considering also. It has adjustable leg height.

 

[electrathon]

Our rotary cleaner can go right through that tee then we feed a hose down into the tee cap to clean it out. I would absolutely not be moving a soapstone stove out every year.

You can make a 90 degree turn up, then turn through two curves and then go almost 30 ft up a liner? I can barely push my rods up past the S bend now with the T removed to get a straight shot up.

 

[twd000]

Fireplace B may be an option, but where are the dimensions and photos?

here's the details on fireplace B

thanks for all your helpful comments. I've got a lot to think about. I'll check in tomorrow when I have some more time

 

[bholler]

You can make a 90 degree turn up, then turn through two curves and then go almost 30 ft up a liner? I can barely push my rods up past the S bend now with the T removed to get a straight shot up.

Yeah easily

 

[begreen]

If heat will convect to the upstairs from the basement then maybe consider an insert for the upstairs. That will provide a nice fireview and decent heat for milder weather or times when you don't need the basement stove/insert burning.