What are most famous stove models going off market as a result of the EPA rules?

[John Ackerly]

Yesterday was a historic day for wood heaters, and while tough for many retailers, should result in generally cleaner stoves over time. But, some pretty famous stove models aren't going to be 2020 compliant, and will go the way of Fisher stoves and others that couldn't make the cut in 1988. Here is our list,

May 15, 2020: a historic day for wood heat technology

Wood stove, pellet stove, NSPS, EPA, PM, grams per hour, efficiency, LHV, HHV, cleanest, best, carbon neutral, biomass, tax credit, IRS, certified

forgreenheat.blogspot.com

and thoughts about how EPA and HPBA handled the transition. The last descendend of the Whitfield stoves - the Lennox/IHP Montage is one of them.

John

 

[Mech e]

I do not like the heavy handed approach the government (fed, state, local) all too often takes. What starts off as something reasonable morfs into laws and policies driven by a political ideology that cuts into my rights as a US citizen.

 

[Ctwoodtick]

I do not like the heavy handed approach the government (fed, state, local) all too often takes. What starts off as something reasonable morfs into laws and policies driven by a political ideology that cuts into my rights as a US citizen.

Perhaps so, but I’ll tell you- I was in my local stove shop recently checking out what was “sellable” at this point. I was very impressed with the Jotul’s use of secondary tubes AND a catalyst In some stoves. With wood that is dry, this should all but eliminate smoke issues that some run into with their neighbors. It should be a badge of honor too that wood fuel can be relatively low with particulate emissions too. I wasn’t seeing prices too out of line either. Stoves appear to have come a long way since I bought my Jotul insert 7 yrs ago.

 

[begreen]

Most all of us have benefited from EPA regs that went into effect in 1989 and so have our neighborhoods. Our stoves produce a lot fewer emissions and we burn less wood. Although I am sorry to see some brands go, most notably the Enviro line, I welcome cleaner, more efficient stoves. One positive thing about the coronavirus is that it has shown us how nice it is to have clean air.

 

[Highbeam]

The famous and economical Englander nc30 will be gone.

I think the new regs are attainable and the information provided to consumers is a good thing. I am not a fan of the no sell through rules.

 

[begreen]

The famous and economical Englander nc30 will be gone.

I think the new regs are attainable and the information provided to consumers is a good thing. I am not a fan of the no sell through rules.

That one surprised me. The current EPA testing for the 30NC is well below the limit. Maybe Englander had decide to push sales toward the 50 SSW02? If so, I hope they have the door warping problem solved.

 

[Highbeam]

That one surprised me. The current EPA testing for the 30NC is well below the limit. Maybe Englander had decide to push sales toward the 50 SSW02? If so, I hope they have the door warping problem solved.

The old epa test showed results that were below the 2020 limits but as we know it’s a totally different test so this comparison doesn’t really mean anything. Maybe they tried the new test method and failed or made a business decision to focus on that new model that has been less reliable. Drolet seems to be the next Englander.

 

[fvhowler]

I do not like the heavy handed approach the government (fed, state, local) all too often takes. What starts off as something reasonable morfs into laws and policies driven by a political ideology that cuts into my rights as a US citizen.

It is totally heavy handed . More government regs forcing some businesses to close causing people to lose their jobs. I realize the industry had years to figure it out but many companies don't have the R&D. Those that do, raise their prices so fewer people can afford to buy the new and improved stove. Makes you wonder what the real end game is.

 

[bholler]

It is totally heavy handed . More government regs forcing some businesses to close causing people to lose their jobs. I realize the industry had years to figure it out but many companies don't have the R&D. Those that do, raise their prices so fewer people can afford to buy the new and improved stove. Makes you wonder what the real end game is.

If you look at stoves today and factor in inflation they don't cost any more than they did in the 70s. And you get greatly improved performance.

 

[begreen]

It is totally heavy handed . More government regs forcing some businesses to close causing people to lose their jobs. I realize the industry had years to figure it out but many companies don't have the R&D. Those that do, raise their prices so fewer people can afford to buy the new and improved stove. Makes you wonder what the real end game is.

Stove prices have gone up steadily on some company's models in the past decade with little change to the stove. Look at Woodstock or Jotul models for example. Can't blame everything on the gubmint.

 

[fvhowler]

Stove prices have gone up steadily on some company's models in the past decade with little change to the stove. Look at Woodstock or Jotul models for example. Can't blame everything on the gubmint.

Where does it end? The government can regulate something out of existence. It seems cord wood is the target. Agreed that today's stoves are nicer and cleaner burning. People love fire. We burn leaves/debris, have firepits in our back yards and we burn in crappy, inefficient fireplaces. Yet the government is nailing the wood stove industry for cleaner burns. As the question was asked is 4.5 that much different the 2.5?

 

[Ctwoodtick]

Where does it end? The government can regulate something out of existence. It seems cord wood is the target. Agreed that today's stoves are nicer and cleaner burning. People love fire. We burn leaves/debris, have firepits in our back yards and we burn in crappy, inefficient fireplaces. Yet the government is nailing the wood stove industry for cleaner burns. As the question was asked is 4.5 that much different the 2.5?

Not trying to be a smart-#%^, that is a Reduction of almost half, which is a good thing. The way I look at it, if wood burning can stay focused with remaining clean, than it has a better chance of not being a target of scrutiny.
I know where you’re coming from though. Its a balance. I’m confident that if no/few regulations existed, we’d have a pretty cruddy landscape at this point. I used to be an avid fisherman and fished a lot in the rivers of CT, RI, and MA. Without regs put in place in the 70’s, these waters would have been horrid. I’ve talked with a number of old timers who said the water has drastically recovered since the time they were kids.

 

[brenndatomu]

Not trying to be a smart-#%^, that is a Reduction of almost half, which is a good thing.

Its getting to the point of splitting hairs though too...

 

[begreen]

2.5 is the upper limit. Many of the new certified stoves are coming in far below this. The Woodstock Absolute Steel and some Kumas are in pellet stove territory! Actually they are cleaner burning than many pellet stoves. That is a remarkable achievement. Looks like the new Hearthstone stoves are no slouches either. The Manchester 8362 is just .65 gm/hr. And the winner so far appears to be the Intrepid Flexburn at just .3gm/hr.!

 

[Highbeam]

Of course, that’s under laboratory conditions with a new catalyst and dry wood when the device is operated by a professional. Give me any of these new stoves and a reward and I can make some very bad things come from the chimney.

My biggest worry is a cat stove with a 10-20 year catalyst guarantee! We know that’s misleading and nobody is going to tell the consumer the truth.

Still, quite an accomplishment to test under 1 gph.

 

[begreen]

Isn't 10 yrs a standard cat warranty? The 20 yr warranty on the Jotul F500v3 catalyst is just for defects in materials and workmanship, not for operational lifespan. The actual cat warranty is a pro-rated 6 yrs. We have not seen the actual life-span of cats in some of these new hybrids. It could be much longer than we are used to with non-hybrid cats. Time will tell.

 

[ABMax24]

If you want to draw a comparison take a look at diesel trucks. Particulate filters were implemented in 2007, and DEF fluid around 2012. Rolling coal and sooty exhaust are a thing of the past. It's pretty hard to refer to a new diesel truck as a "dirty diesel" and most have cleaner tailpipes than new gasoline vehicles. This has made a huge change to the image of the diesel industry. Wood stoves need to go in the same direction to continue to allow their use in the court of public opinion.

I do agree though with the un-fair regulations of wood stove vs open fire pit. Last night we opened the bedroom window for some fresh air and instead got the smell of some neighbour burning wood, leaves, with what smelt like burning plastic and coal mixed in.

 

[Highbeam]

Isn't 10 yrs a standard cat warranty? The 20 yr warranty on the Jotul F500v3 catalyst is just for defects in materials and workmanship, not for operational lifespan. The actual cat warranty is a pro-rated 6 yrs. We have not seen the actual life-span of cats in some of these new hybrids. It could be much longer than we are used to with non-hybrid cats. Time will tell.

The 10 year warranty was new when bk started offering it around 2010 and other manufacturers have followed suit. Not required of any manufacturer but many did it to be competitive and it’s only on that first cat. The long warranties are all for defects but not for failure to function unless of course you can make the case that the defect is why it’s not functioning. The only function warranty is the epa 6 year prorated warranty which is also silly because it’s easy to wear out a cat in 2-3years if you use your stove for full time heat. We must recognize that the average wood burner only burns occasionally and so may never reach the expected 10-12000 hours of expected cat life in10 years or ever. Many of us at a forum like this are above average but let’s be honest so that new burners can make this decision with open eyes. Unfortunately stoves don’t have hour meters but if they did, I bet the epa would require disclosure and warranties based on hours and not years.

We have seen life expectancy experience in hybrids from Woodstock. Same as any cat stove. 12000 hours. Some less if they want that high performance they bought and some get more life if they are willing to tolerate low performance, efficiency, and higher pollution of a worn out cat.

At least cat life is dependable and predictable if you’re paying attention. The average wood burner may not pay attention and will claim they don’t need a new cat until 2040 because that’s what the brochure said. Or doesn’t have the 500$ or more (?) to replace some of these oddball cats. Somebody told me once that most Americans can’t scrape up that much cash even for an emergency.

Cat failure is not very gradual. You get extra good performance for a 1000 hours or so and then a long period of dang good performance and then a death spiral over the last 1000. That’s been my experience anyway.

I like cat stoves. I hope most of the new ones are successful so that there are more options. My real dream is that they invent a catalyst that lasts 2-3 times as long as the current cats that have remained unchanged for decades.

Please excuse my ramblings. I didn’t mean to go on this long! Tell us about your experiences.

 

[jetsam]

Of course, that’s under laboratory conditions with a new catalyst and dry wood when the device is operated by a professional. Give me any of these new stoves and a reward and I can make some very bad things come from the chimney.

My biggest worry is a cat stove with a 10-20 year catalyst guarantee! We know that’s misleading and nobody is going to tell the consumer the truth.

Still, quite an accomplishment to test under 1 gph.

Judging by the posts I see here, maybe 10% of wood stove buyers want primarily to heat the house, and a fraction of that get a wood stove for primary or only heat.

So for a very high percentage of the wood stove customers out there, you could offer a lifetime cat warranty and never worry about them getting near 10k hours.

 

[bholler]

Judging by the posts I see here, maybe 10% of wood stove buyers want primarily to heat the house, and a fraction of that get a wood stove for primary or only heat.

So for a very high percentage of the wood stove customers out there, you could offer a lifetime cat warranty and never worry about them getting near 10k hours.

I don't know where you are getting those ideas but they simply are not correct based upon what we see in the field.

 

[jetsam]

I don't know where you are getting those ideas but they simply are not correct based upon what we see in the field.

I just said where I was getting those ideas.... and I suspect that your customer base excludes a lot of the people that post here using the word "ambiance". They probably only call when the house fills up with smoke.

 

[Ctwoodtick]

I just said where I was getting those ideas.... and I suspect that your customer base excludes a lot of the people that post here using the word "ambiance". They probably only call when the house fills up with smoke.

I’d slow it down here.

 

[bholler]

I just said where I was getting those ideas.... and I suspect that your customer base excludes a lot of the people that post here using the word "ambiance". They probably only call when the house fills up with smoke.

You do realize we sell and install stoves as well as installing stoves for many other dealers.

I also go to conventions trade shows and training with many other sweeps and installers. Your assumptions are not correct.

 

[weatherguy]

You do realize we sell and install stoves as well as installing stoves for many other dealers.

I also go to conventions trade shows and training with many other sweeps and installers. Your assumptions are not correct.

Not sure he's totally off base, your base customers are probably full time burners who need they're cleaning every year, I go into hundreds of houses a year and have been in thousands over 30 years and most of the people that have a wood stove that I talk to only use them on weekends and cold spells. I was surprised to hear that but that's what my not so scientific survey shows. The part timers probably don't call you too often if at all.

 

[bholler]

Not sure he's totally off base, your base customers are probably full time burners who need they're cleaning every year, I go into hundreds of houses a year and have been in thousands over 30 years and most of the people that have a wood stove that I talk to only use them on weekends and cold spells. I was surprised to hear that but that's what my not so scientific survey shows. The part timers probably don't call you too often if at all.

Yes he didn't say anything about part timers. He said only 10% use their woodstove for heat at all and then only a small fraction of those use it as primary heat. So he was saying 90% simply have a stove for ambiance not heat at all. Those weekend and cold spell burners are still using the stove for heat. He also said wood stove buyers. That excludes those who bought a house with a stove and have no interest in using it.