What have we gotten ourselves into (remodel)

[joshtp]

Hi, I'm new to Hearth.com, but have read many threads on here. The first half of this post talks of the surround and hearth, but I'll also be asking about putting in a fireplace insert.

We've been living in our new 1975 house for about 6 months now, and my wife and I couldn't stand the look of our fireplace:



We were pretty sure there was brick under the tile and plywood, so we decided to just tear it off, just a few hours ago, thinking that the brick is probably in pretty good shape and we could undo the horrible damage the previous owners had done by covering up perfectly good brick:



The plywood above the mantel came off great with just a little adhesive remaining, but after spending 5 minutes to get one tile off, and not having much luck getting the thinset off, our hopes were dashed. We can't easily recover the bricks, at least from the lower half.

So I think I have a plan, and wanted to get your take on it.

1. Leave tile in place, scuffing it up with a belt sander, and adding AirStone or another stone veneer on top of the tile on the wall, and on top of the brick along the edge of the hearth.
2. Put some kind of stone-like material on top of the hearth tile, or perhaps even another type of tile. Suggestions are eagerly welcomed here.
3. Reuse and paint the old mantel white. Perhaps cover the top bricks with plywood painted white; this part is one where I'm not sure exactly what I want to do.
4. In the future I'd like to add some built in cabinets and shelves on either side.

Once that's done, it will look pretty great, but won't function so well. When we bought the house, the chimney inspector found about a 1.5 inch chip in the 13x13" terracotta tile, about 2/3rds up the 18 foot flue, and suggested not using the fireplace until repaired. We also know how terribly inefficient open fireplaces are, and so are looking at an insert. We have two above grade levels and a basement, with each level around 1100 sq ft, so 3300 sq ft total. We have the chimney protruding through an exterior wall. The fireplace opening is about 35" wide and 29" high and 25" deep. We have a heat pump, and are looking to just supplement heat a bit in the coldest months, and to enjoy the warm and flames of the fire, and to give myself an excuse to gather firewood.

So here's my plan for the fireplace itself:

1. Install a 6" steel liner, squashing it a bit to fit through the 6" opening in the damper, as the liner is actually 6.25". Because we have an exterior chimney, we'd insulate the liner with blanket insulation.
2. As we intend to use this more for enjoyment than a primary heat source, get a smaller, inexpensive fireplace insert like the Century one from Northern Tools or the Englander 13-NCI.

Is there anything I'm missing? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

 

[TheRambler]

Take a hammer to the tile. A ball peen can work good , but in any case tou have to be a little careful to nt damage the brick. Worst case you have to ckver it over again.

 

[joshtp]

Take a hammer to the tile. A ball peen can work good , but in any case tou have to be a little careful to nt damage the brick. Worst case you have to ckver it over again.

So a ball peen hammer would work better than a chisel? I'm afraid that would still leave a lot of thinset to remove, which seems really hard. I've read about using muriatic acid, a messy and dangerous job, and unlikely to leave the brick in good shape. Do you think covering the tile wouldn't work, or are you a big fan of restoring brick when possible? Thanks!

 

[TheRambler]

It all depends on if u want to save the brick. A chisel works well too. Thinset comes off pretty easy with a wire wheel

 

[joshtp]

Overdue for an update, with some follow up questions.

• I've ordered the Century CW2500 wood insert and steel liner from Northern Tool (btw, it's on sale for $679.99 and if you get the faceplate and liner, you'll get a $200 gift card, ends TODAY)
• I scuffed up the tile with a masonry grinding wheel and installed AirStone veneer from Lowes.
• I built and installed cabinets on each side of the fireplace.
• I built a shallow 2x4 frame on top of the brick over the mantel, and ran electrical and HDMI cables.

Here's a picture of the current state:


The biggest items remaining are the panel atop the mantel, the mantel itself, the hearth, and doors and trim to finish off the cabinets.

My biggest current question has to do with electrical as the image above hints at.

I'd like to run electrical into the firebox so the cord can be concealed. The two options I can think of are shown in the image: run wire between the brick and concrete down from the middle, or run it in conduit around the surround.

Are either of these options legitimate? Thank you for any suggestions.

 

[weatherguy]

Not sure if you can put an outlet inside but the question I have is now with wood on the sides do you meet clearances with the stove? also check the clearances going vertical before you put any more wood.

 

[joshtp]

Not sure if you can put an outlet inside but the question I have is now with wood on the sides do you meet clearances with the stove? also check the clearances going vertical before you put any more wood.

Thanks for the reply. I've double checked all the clearances and I have plenty of room, except from the insert front to the edge of the hearth which is barely compliant. In the photo the inner blue rectangle of tape on the glass screen is where the edge of the insert will be, and the outer blue rectangle is where the edge of the faceplate will be.

 

[weatherguy]

That's good, hard to tell from pics, what you putting for a hearth?

 

[jetsam]

I drilled a hole in the mortar joint, fished some 14/2 bx through the hole, and threw a handy box with an outlet on the rear floor of the fireplace.

Nobody can see it anyway as it's behind the insert, and if I ever move out and take my (expensive) insert with me, I have a hole the size of a dime to slap some mortar in and it's a fireplace again.

 

[rwhite]

The clearance are ment for any combustible material, which romex and an outlet are.I doubt you have the proper clearances to the outlet and risk melting wires and causing a fire. I don't think what you did, although cleaner, is a good idea.

 

[joshtp]

That's good, hard to tell from pics, what you putting for a hearth?

Not sure exactly what yet. I'm stopping by a stone yard tomorrow. Maybe some kind of blue flagstone. Other ideas are welcome.

 

[jetsam]

The clearance are ment for any combustible material, which romex and an outlet are.I doubt you have the proper clearances to the outlet and risk melting wires and causing a fire. I don't think what you did, although cleaner, is a good idea.

There's no romex involved, though I think the AC has the same heat rating as romex (and probably the same insulation on the conductors). However the BK Princess sits 12.5" into the fireplace, so it has about 8.5" of airspace behind it. The manual doesn't list a required clearance at the rear of the unit, but my stove place installer said that the handy box was fine.

Anyway, sorry for the small threadjacking. Fireplace sizes and required stove clearances vary; do check your requirements before you break stuff.

 

[joshtp]

Anyway, sorry for the small threadjacking. Fireplace sizes and required stove clearances vary; do check your requirements before you break stuff.

I don't recall seeing any specific clearance numbers for electrical, but it might be too close to run it to the top.

Now I'm thinking flexible metal conduit under the veneer and behind the hearth might work, as it should be a good distance from the insert if I follow the side.

 

[rwhite]

First I apologize as I was getting jetsam and joshtp mixed up. I still feel that an outlet inside the box is not a good idea. The insert stove clearances are assuming open air space. I suspect that there is no rear clearance as they don't expect there to be combustible material interior. I may be totally off base here but an interior outlet does not seem like a good idea.

 

[joshtp]

First I apologize as I was getting jetsam and joshtp mixed up. I still feel that an outlet inside the box is not a good idea. The insert stove clearances are assuming open air space. I suspect that there is no rear clearance as they don't expect there to be combustible material interior. I may be totally off base here but an interior outlet does not seem like a good idea.

I understand your concern. Do you have any suggestions as to how I could conceal the power cord, fully or partially? Currently the cord would have to plug in atop the cabinet. Thanks.

 

[jb6l6gc]

I like that's your trying to find a way to properly hide cord alway hate seeing new installs here with freakin cord out. That would drive me up the wall personally. I'm a little OCD. Anyway good luck I hope u find a solution

 

[jb6l6gc]

Maybe wrap cord with chimney insulation for extra protection. If it did melt what's the worst case scenario a little burnt rubber smell and a popped beaker. Don't see it being a real fire hazard as it's inside a masonary fire box with no other combustible material. I could be wrong though

 

[jb6l6gc]

Maybe wrap cord with chimney insulation for extra protection. If it did melt what's the worst case scenario a little burnt rubber smell and a popped beaker. Don't see it being a real fire hazard as it's inside a masonary fire box with no other combustible material. I could be wrong though

 

[rwhite]

So assuming proper clearances to the wood boxes on the sides I would bring the power down to an outlet mounted to the side of that. Your not supposed to permanently bury any extension or power cord so I would run the cord along the hearth wall to that outlet. If you had any airstone left I would route out the back. You would end up with 1 run of double layer stone at the bottom which you could copy on the other side to match. Run the power cord behind the routed out airstone. I would use a few velcro tabs to just mount the airstone to the face so the cord is accessible. And you could leave it off during inspection. It should hide the cord and more or less not be noticed.

 

[jetsam]

If it was too hot for a piece of armored cable or a nylon outlet in the back corner of the fireplace, one would think that the rubber power cord that is factory-attached to the fan kit on the stove would melt first, as it is about 15" closer to the heat source!

 

[rwhite]

Blower cords are heat resistant and can handle quite a bit. It's not the cord which would worry me. The cable run (even if armored) would be my concern.

 

[Core]

Overdue for an update, with some follow up questions.

• I've ordered the Century CW2500 wood insert and steel liner from Northern Tool (btw, it's on sale for $679.99 and if you get the faceplate and liner, you'll get a $200 gift card, ends TODAY)
• I scuffed up the tile with a masonry grinding wheel and installed AirStone veneer from Lowes.
• I built and installed cabinets on each side of the fireplace.
• I built a shallow 2x4 frame on top of the brick over the mantel, and ran electrical and HDMI cables.

Here's a picture of the current state:
View attachment 169659

The biggest items remaining are the panel atop the mantel, the mantel itself, the hearth, and doors and trim to finish off the cabinets.

My biggest current question has to do with electrical as the image above hints at.

I'd like to run electrical into the firebox so the cord can be concealed. The two options I can think of are shown in the image: run wire between the brick and concrete down from the middle, or run it in conduit around the surround.

Are either of these options legitimate? Thank you for any suggestions.

Electrical is always a jump ball. The work so far looks great !

 

[jetsam]

Blower cords are heat resistant and can handle quite a bit. It's not the cord which would worry me. The cable run (even if armored) would be my concern.

It will be 30°F tonight. I will run her on high for a while and measure the surface temp of the armored cable where it exits the masonary (roughly 14" from the firebox of the old fireplace). If it's warmer than room temp, that will concern me... I'll report back so anyone considering similar lunacy has some idea how it works in practice.

 

[jb6l6gc]

It will be 30°F tonight. I will run her on high for a while and measure the surface temp of the armored cable where it exits the masonary (roughly 14" from the firebox of the old fireplace). If it's warmer than room temp, that will concern me... I'll report back so anyone considering similar lunacy has some idea how it works in practice.

Do that measurement when cruising with the fan
Off that should give u an accurate max temp measurement

 

[jetsam]

After about an hour on high, I was getting cooked out of the living room, so decided to call it and measure. Air temp was 75F on the other side of the room. The drywall on the exterior wall by the chimney was 67F, the tiled stone hearthtop near the cable penetration was 65F, and the MC's jacket itself had a surface temp of 63F. The jacket (being metal) should be fairly thermally conductive, and it goes through over a foot of masonary to get to the point where I measured it, so I am not sure that I learned much about the temperatures behind the insert.

My gut feeling is that it was 200F behind the insert, the MC would be a little warmer than 63F, but I don't have any facts to back that up- I have no idea what the heat loss from the trip through the brickwork is.