What to do with my 1900 fireplace w/insert

[jimtmcdaniels]

I have to decide what to do with my 1900 fireplace insert:

I live downtown in Colorado Springs CO in a 1900 house about 2600 s.f. and it has an open coal/wood fireplace ("Echo Grate #422 Pat. 7/4/1893) in the corner of an interior wall with a wood mantel above and wood columns on the sides from floor to mantel, in the living room. The insert has a bottom grate and ash drop under it that drops into a large capacity cleanout in the basement.
The problem is that the times I've buned wood or coal, it seems too much of the heat goes up the chimney, barely heating the room much less any adjoining rooms, and it seems to burn/consume fuel fast. So I just don't use it.
My furnace is natural gas and gas is cheap then other states but going up and I think I can accumulate some free wood during the summer and don't mind cutting or splitting too much and have a small pickup truck. I'm waiting for an answer on how to obtain wood in our local national forests and the permit cost involved, as this may be a very cheap wood source, and I'm checking with the city to see if they provide low cost wood from street trees etc.

Wood bought here is about $200 a cord and coal about $170 a ton.
We basicly don't have any restrictions on burning yet in our town.
The chimney is 10" square made out of brick, and I know if I get a new insert that I need to use a round stainless steel insert in the chimney and a cap. I know it will cost me about $2000 or more in parts. I know not to get an insert with the old unreliable catalyst design.

Q. I know modern inserts are 70% or higher efficient, how efficient is my old insert, in that will I see a lot more heat with a modern insert for the same amount of fuel or is the old 1900 insert not that bad? Will it burn/consume slower?
Q. I'm having trouble finding a new insert that will fit well because the fireplace is 25 1/2" wide, 30" tall, 15" deep, and the wood mantel is only 8 3/4" above the fireplace and 10 1/2" to the sides of the fireplace. Do you know of any brand inserts that will fit well?
Q. I'd like to be able to use the 9" x 4" ash drop still if I get a new insert, am I asking too much?
Q. I know the inserts are not rated for coal, but I'd like the option depending on fuel prices and I like the long burn of coal and compactness. Our power plants burn coal and I've read there is 300 years left and very abundant. I've been told by an expert to get an insert with a grate bottom to give air to coal so I can burn coal if I choose to, that the manufactuers don't rate them for coal but it is ok if one doesn't put too much in, but all the inserts seem to not have a grate bottom. There's only a few models rated for coal/wood and they are for anthracite coal and we have the softer coal here from CO/WY. Do you know any models with a grate bottom?
Q. My other option is a gas insert but then I can't burn scrap wood and what if the prices go up. What is your guess on the future outlook of prices and laws and availability of wood/gas/coal?
Q. I've read that an insert that gets it's combustion air from outside is better because there's no cold air vacume infultration but since my chimney is in an interior wall can I still get outside air? I see natural gas can have two inserts up the chimney, one for the combustion air and one for the vent. Can I get the combustion air from the chimney for a wood insert, or can I get it from going through the basement and then the side of the house like a cloths dryer vent or just don't use outside air?
Q. I know coal ash has heavy metals but is it best to throw ash away wood or is it useful for anything like in flower beds etc?

THANK-YOU FOR YOUR ANSWERS/TIME!

 

[Gooserider]

I have to decide what to do with my 1900 fireplace insert:

I live downtown in Colorado Springs CO in a 1900 house about 2600 s.f. and it has an open coal/wood fireplace ("Echo Grate #422 Pat. 7/4/1893) in the corner of an interior wall with a wood mantel above and wood columns on the sides from floor to mantel, in the living room. The insert has a bottom grate and ash drop under it that drops into a large capacity cleanout in the basement.
The problem is that the times I've buned wood or coal, it seems too much of the heat goes up the chimney, barely heating the room much less any adjoining rooms, and it seems to burn/consume fuel fast. So I just don't use it.
My furnace is natural gas and gas is cheap then other states but going up and I think I can accumulate some free wood during the summer and don't mind cutting or splitting too much and have a small pickup truck. I'm waiting for an answer on how to obtain wood in our local national forests and the permit cost involved, as this may be a very cheap wood source, and I'm checking with the city to see if they provide low cost wood from street trees etc.

Wood bought here is about $200 a cord and coal about $170 a ton.
We basicly don't have any restrictions on burning yet in our town.
The chimney is 10" square made out of brick, and I know if I get a new insert that I need to use a round stainless steel insert in the chimney and a cap. I know it will cost me about $2000 or more in parts. I know not to get an insert with the old unreliable catalyst design.

There is a chronic arguement about cat vs. non-cat on the forums here, and I'm not going to replay it beyond saying that there are a lot of people who are very happy with the modern cat stoves, and as long as you don't burn things in them that you shouldn't, find them quite reliable. Much of the cat's bad reputation comes from the early days when they were being slapped on old design stoves as a sort of "bandaid" - and didn't work well. Modern, scientifically designed stoves work fine.

Q. I know modern inserts are 70% or higher efficient, how efficient is my old insert, in that will I see a lot more heat with a modern insert for the same amount of fuel or is the old 1900 insert not that bad? Will it burn/consume slower?

Guessing, but your old insert is probably 20-30% efficient at best, so you will see a LOT more heat out of a modern insert. You will also make a lot less smoke, and help keep it so that you don't get burning restrictions.

Q. I'm having trouble finding a new insert that will fit well because the fireplace is 25 1/2" wide, 30" tall, 15" deep, and the wood mantel is only 8 3/4" above the fireplace and 10 1/2" to the sides of the fireplace. Do you know of any brand inserts that will fit well?

Not really, it does sound like you are going to have a challenge getting something that will fit. It is likely that you will need to either modify the wooden mantel or install heat shields. This can be a bummer when trying to preserve the looks of antique / historical fireplaces, but there are things that can be done.

Q. I'd like to be able to use the 9" x 4" ash drop still if I get a new insert, am I asking too much?

Probably. Most inserts are designed with solid bottoms, so you ash drop is going to be covered over. - Sorry!

Q. I know the inserts are not rated for coal, but I'd like the option depending on fuel prices and I like the long burn of coal and compactness. Our power plants burn coal and I've read there is 300 years left and very abundant. I've been told by an expert to get an insert with a grate bottom to give air to coal so I can burn coal if I choose to, that the manufactuers don't rate them for coal but it is ok if one doesn't put too much in, but all the inserts seem to not have a grate bottom. There's only a few models rated for coal/wood and they are for anthracite coal and we have the softer coal here from CO/WY. Do you know any models with a grate bottom?

You can't "serve two masters" in modern day stoves... The design for good wood burning is very different from what is needed for good wood burning. They used to have "multi-fuel" designs, but usually they were compromises that did a poor job at either. You need to either get a coal insert and burn coal, except for the startup wood fires, or you need to get a wood insert and burn wood ONLY. Attempting to burn coal in a wood insert is a bad idea, it is very likely to damage the insert, immediately after it voids your warranty.

Q. My other option is a gas insert but then I can't burn scrap wood and what if the prices go up. What is your guess on the future outlook of prices and laws and availability of wood/gas/coal?

None are going to get any cheaper any time soon. I would expect wood to stay at the low point, but it's probably going to go up to some extent, especially if you purchase rather than scrounge.

Out of room, will continue in next post...

Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

Q. I've read that an insert that gets it's combustion air from outside is better because there's no cold air vacume infultration but since my chimney is in an interior wall can I still get outside air? I see natural gas can have two inserts up the chimney, one for the combustion air and one for the vent. Can I get the combustion air from the chimney for a wood insert, or can I get it from going through the basement and then the side of the house like a cloths dryer vent or just don't use outside air?

Outside air is another topic of debate. My opinion is that it is only vital if you are in a modern "tight" house where combustion makeup air is in tight supply, which doesn't sound like your problem. In an older house it can be nice in that it MAY reduce cold drafts from infiltrating air, but it probably isn't worth a lot of headaches to bring it into an inside chimney.

Q. I know coal ash has heavy metals but is it best to throw ash away wood or is it useful for anything like in flower beds etc?

This is one of the advantages of wood over coal - coal ash is essentially "Haz-mat" and needs to be disposed of carefully, but wood ash is not, it can be sprinkled on lawns and gardens as a fertilizer, just dumped in a compost pile, or otherwise dealt with in a handy way without needing special precautions.

THANK-YOU FOR YOUR ANSWERS/TIME![/quote

You're welcome - keep us posted on your progress.

Gooserider

 

[jimtmcdaniels]

Well thanks for your answers I have a new question though!

I'm still investigating my options and I have found some zero clearance inserts that don't stick out into the hearth floor but my depth is only 15" and the units require more.
But I have an old chimney and I think't it's at least double walled with brick and it's in the corner of the interior wall and I'm thinking that the modern inserts only require one layer of brick so I'm thinking I can remove the first layer of brick in the back wall and it will possibly expose a v shaped cavity of brick greatly increasing the depth so I can fit a modern insert all the way in, and add a header if needed to the top of the first wall area removed.

Q. Is this possible or am I missing something here?
Q. What is the minimum back wall requirement for the modern inserts/code?


Thank-you!!

 

[swestall]

If you love the smell of wood, then a new insert will give you the best of both worlds. A good professional installer can make it work for you. If you love the look you have and don't care about the wood, try a vent free gas log in the insert you have.

 

[Gooserider]

Well thanks for your answers I have a new question though!

I'm still investigating my options and I have found some zero clearance inserts that don't stick out into the hearth floor but my depth is only 15" and the units require more.
But I have an old chimney and I think't it's at least double walled with brick and it's in the corner of the interior wall and I'm thinking that the modern inserts only require one layer of brick so I'm thinking I can remove the first layer of brick in the back wall and it will possibly expose a v shaped cavity of brick greatly increasing the depth so I can fit a modern insert all the way in, and add a header if needed to the top of the first wall area removed.

Q. Is this possible or am I missing something here?
Q. What is the minimum back wall requirement for the modern inserts/code?


Thank-you!!

Well it might be possible, but I would be really surprised if it were - it certainly would be a question that would call for some serious on site evaluation of how the fireplace matches up to modern codesand what modifications would be safe / legal. BTW a modern masonry fireplace needs considerably more layers than one. The requirements actually have tended to get thicker and more restrictive about material requirements - for instance interiors used to be made from regular red brick and standard mortar, nowadays they are required to use fire brick and refractory mortar. I'm not a code guru - the expert on the subject here is a fellow known as Elk (or elkimmeg) hopefully he can chime in w/ some advice. However to install an insert you basically have to have a firebox that would be code compliant if used as a standard fireplace, aside from some limited mods allowed to enable getting a liner down the chimney.

Gooserider

 

[jimtmcdaniels]

Hey guys thanks for your help, I Wish someone had told me about this EPA PDF listing all the EPA rated inserts/stoves, it even has most of the manufacturer's website addresses from where I can view brochures, manuals and dealer's locations by states:
(broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf)

The EPA site also has some very informative info to read:
(broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/woodstoves/index.html)

This made it Very easy to look at all the designs and sizes that are out there to find one to fit my limited size fireplace.
Please share it with newbies who are still shoppin.

Also I talked to one expert who said that I can burn coal in a non cat insert as well, as long as it has a grate/ash drop (because coal needs air from the bottom) and I don't over heat it. He said most of the manufacturers don't state this but it's true.
It must be because I see the insert I'm going with "Moso" does state on their site that it can burn coal also.

(broken link removed to http://www.morsoe.com/us/Before_buying/Which_model/Which_model.htm)
"Fuel
Morsø stoves with ashpans and grates can, in addition to wood, be fired with coal, energy coke and briquettes in most of the DS-approved stoves."

I like that option and I hear you can keep the fire going easily through the night till morning with some coal.

The Morso 1710 is a flush mount so the side and top combustible min clearances are reduced, and it's the only one that will fit in my small opening and it I'll be able to use my ash drop to the basement because the ash pan is right above the drop in the floor.

And there is a dealer in the next town 30 min drive away.

 

[Gooserider]

Hey guys thanks for your help, I Wish someone had told me about this EPA PDF listing all the EPA rated inserts/stoves, it even has most of the manufacturer's website addresses from where I can view brochures, manuals and dealer's locations by states:
(broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf)

The EPA site also has some very informative info to read:
(broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/woodstoves/index.html)

This made it Very easy to look at all the designs and sizes that are out there to find one to fit my limited size fireplace.
Please share it with newbies who are still shoppin.

Also I talked to one expert who said that I can burn coal in a non cat insert as well, as long as it has a grate/ash drop (because coal needs air from the bottom) and I don't over heat it. He said most of the manufacturers don't state this but it's true.
It must be because I see the insert I'm going with "Moso" does state on their site that it can burn coal also.

(broken link removed to http://www.morsoe.com/us/Before_buying/Which_model/Which_model.htm)
"Fuel
Morsø stoves with ashpans and grates can, in addition to wood, be fired with coal, energy coke and briquettes in most of the DS-approved stoves."

I like that option and I hear you can keep the fire going easily through the night till morning with some coal.

The Morso 1710 is a flush mount so the side and top combustible min clearances are reduced, and it's the only one that will fit in my small opening and it I'll be able to use my ash drop to the basement because the ash pan is right above the drop in the floor.

And there is a dealer in the next town 30 min drive away.

Glad you seem to have found a solution, though I would SERIOUSLY question the wisdom of the guy that told you it was OK to burn coal in a non-cat insert that is not rated and approved for it. While yes it probably is physically possible, you would almost certainly void any warranty on the unit, and would likely have a hard time not overheating it. As an additional issue, since coal burning is not a listed use, it is possible that if disaster were to strike and you had a fire, your homeowners insurance would get nasty about covering your damages.

However if the 1710 is listed for use with coal, then the point is moot and you should have no problem with doing so in that unit, although it may not burn the coal as efficiently as a coal only stove would.

Also it is great that you can possibly use your ashdrop, but you should verify that any modifications you need to make in order to do so won't change the way the stove operates - in many cases the ashpan compartment MUST be sealed when the stove is burning to avoid over-firing - in which case either the ashpan is required as part of the sealing, or there will be a floored chamber the ashpan slides into. Either could pose a problem to using the ashdrop.

Gooserider