What Will the Home Inspection Determination Be?

[psykmyk]

We are in the process of buying our neighbor's house and are wondering what to expect when we get the house inspected. He installed a Jotul 3CB in the following way:
He ran a stainless steel 316Ti liner down the center of the 8" diameter metal chimney. He then connected it to an 90degree connector and to the enameled stovepipe. He sealed the flue area with sheet metal and poured a vermiculite insulation mix around the liner, and then also in the space between the 8" chimney and 12" pipe around it. Finally, he had a friend of ours (a mason) put a new face on the fireplace and brick up the fireplace except for the hole in the middle (back facing flue collar).

He has used the stove all winter for 3 years and it accumulates very little creosote -- by the way, you can probably tell I trust the guy. He's been very up front about this being a rather unorthodox install (and he doesn't get annoyed if you forget to bring his tools back).

But, the questions:
If it's in violation of our local codes (it doesn't seem to be by my reading of the code), what happens then? I'd rather not get this guy in any trouble. Will it "pass" the home inspection? If not, will the inspector inform the local building inspectors? Because of my wife's allergies, we probably will only rarely use it, if at all, but it looks good, so we'd like to keep the stove there.
Other thoughts?
Thanks!

 

[BrotherBart]

I am no building inspector but that sounds like a rock solid installation to me.

 

[kd460]

Everything sounded good untill the part "and then also in the space between the 8” chimney and 12” pipe around it". That might be a problem. I'll let others with more knowledge comment further.

I might add: if this is a typical home sale, I doubt anything will be said. What area do you live in? I know in my neck of the woods, there are no home inspections except when the potential buyer hires one. KD

 

[MrGriz]

I'm not an expert, but it sounds like it was done right to me.

 

[restorer]

If you're patient Elk will reply. Might as well get it from the horse's mouth. Not too many here can say that.

 

[GVA]

To answer the question....If it does not pass local codes I doubt that the home inspector will inform the local BI.....
Some of the experts have spoken so it seems to be a good install...

The only grey area that I can see... (and that is due to the mrs. being insurance goddess) If it was unpermitted, You may assume the liabilities associated with it..Unless this is disclosed at the transfer of sale..
The local authorities have a list of permits pulled, and if no permit was issued for this stove then you may have an issue,(at least till it is inspected properly).
Your nieghbor most likely is in the clear.
Hope this helps a bit...

 

[stoveguy2esw]

i agree with BB on this one , although i have to ask "elk? wherefore art thou?" honestly, i think from the description that there should be no problems

 

[R&D Guy]

I've bought 2 houses in my life, and sold 1 and I've never seen an inspector do much more than a once over on a woodstove I installed (by their inspector), the one that was originally in that house (by mine), and the gas fireplace in my current home (by mine). I was a little surprised since these guys freak out about what may be unsealed tile in the entryway, or a how close a bush was planted to the house etc which seem minor to me.

I'd suggest getting a copy of the install manual online or from the current owner and give it to the inspector and ask him to check it out.

 

[Rob From Wisconsin]

A lot of Home Inspectors will pass when it comes to chimney inspections.
They would rather leave that to a sweep. It was that way on our house we
bought & on the one we sold.....

Rob

 

[psykmyk]

I appreciate all of the help. I read somewhere that by closing up the fireplace, an inspector wouldn't be able to see what was done, and that could be a problem. Thoughts on that?

 

[stoveguy13]

the home inspector will most likely not even bother with it. the real issue here if i understand this correctly is that this seems to be a ZC fireplace chimney the codes are not clear at all on how this is supposed to be done the main issue is that the chimney is probally rated to ul127 which has a 1700 deg rating the wood stove requiers a ul1777 listed chimney 2100 deg the installation sounds fine execpt the fact that they filled the outer pipe with the insulation if this is a air cooled chimney not good if it is not the installer went above what was typically need but this has been a grey area for years they codes just do not address this

 

[BrotherBart]

Your post sounds like you are going to have a private inspector do a pre-purchase inspection of the house. As such the inspector is just providing advice to you on anything that they observe. It is up to you to take, or not take, their advice on the findings. They can't "pass or fail" anything like a municipal building inspector. It is up to you whether you want the fireplace opened up for a through inspection.

Of course if your neighbor had the original installation permitted and inspected, as is probably required in your jurisdiction, then he should be able to provide a copy of the permit and signed off inspection report.

 

[Eric Johnson]

I don't even think the chimney installation is on most inspectors' radar screens. If the stove is installed according to the tolerances and specifications noted in the manual, then there should be no problem. If the guy is really diligent, he might want to see the stove in operation so that he can check it with a CO sensor.

 

[ecfinn]

When we bought our house our home inspection report specifically stated that the chimney was not inspected and should be looked at by a qualified chimney sweep.

It sounds like maybe we're confusing a local building inspector with a home inspector here. Two completely different people doing different jobs. A home inspector is usually hired by the home buyer to spot any potential issues with a house before purchasing it. The buyer can then determine what to do with the information in the report. 1. Get seller to fix. 2. Get seller to give monetary concession off purchase price. 3. etc. etc. A building inspector comes out after a permit is pulled to get something done on the house (or when neighbor rats out someone that un-permitted work is going on next door.)

If you are hiring the home inspector I don't think you have any concerns b/c you hired them. Now if you want to see what a building inspector would say about it that's a different issue, but again, probably also up to you.

Just my $.02

Eric

 

[webbie]

As far as being able to inspect it, that does not mean much. They can't inspect whether or not the contractor put enough nails in the ceiling joists or wood studs either. In other words, a lot of stuff cannot be inspected after installed.

You are correct that the installation is unorthodox, and I can pretty much assure you that it would not be addressed in the manual. Manufacturers of pre-fab metal fireplaces do not like their units modified. However, the pipe install which you mention would be more than sufficient for those inserts which ARE approved for pre-fabs. So taking it a step further, the largest concern is probably whether the actual stove clearances in the room are sufficient.

 

[Highbeam]

I agree with the above that say that a home inspector and a code enforcement officer type building official inspector are different animals. Honestly, and I must apologize if I offend any inspector memebers, my confidence in the home inspection profession is very low. They have more fine print than the mortgage to get them out of any liability. They are not professionals at anything and so have no in depth knowledge on anything. They are full of pet peeves and will take issue with the most lame things such as the tile sealing as noted above. They won't be able to give a detailed analysis on important things such as the roof (call a roofer) the HVAC (call a tech), the plumbing (call a plumber) the septic (call a tech) or especially the stove installation where they will have no idea which UL listing number that the stove pipe must meet. They are cheap enough and will crawl in crawlspaces with the spiders to take pictures for you. They do seem to give lenders confidence even though the risk is squarely on the buyer's shoulders. I use them to give me a honey do list. They find the easy things sometimes.

 

[webbie]

Both home inspectors and building officials are human, and as such they run the gamut of personalities and skill sets.

However, I think for the money spent, a home inspector often provides a decent service.......and of course they must not be liable. Just because you are looking at something does not mean that you have to buy it!

My main beef with home inspectors is often their tone. I've had real estate sales ruined because they like to brag to the prospective buyer. When you get a decent inspector it is like a breath of fresh air. My daughter bought an old home up here in Ma. and had it inspected....I should admit to a bias in that I don't like old houses because there is so much work to do on them! But whereas some inspectors would have told my daughter (not in those exact words) not to buy the place, this guy and gal (a pair) just told me like it was "it's an old house, what do you expect?"....in other words, pay my money and take my chances.

When it comes to the stove inspection, we really can't rely on the inspector OR the code official....except perhaps in rare cases like Elk where an inspector really studies the situation. I would have some faith in folks certified for wood by the new educational foundations like:
(broken link removed to http://www.nficertified.org/pages_consumers/consumers-1.html)

This is up to date stuff, and I know the folks who put the program together. It is about as good as you can get, but still you have certified people with various level of common sense. As with anything else, you have to take what you learn from books, classes AND experience and then distill it all together.

Construction has become as complicated as medicine....there is almost an infinite amount of knowledge out there, and specialists are the best solution when really important opinions are needed.

But back to the thread - I say the home inspector will probably pass it.....or just mention it in passing and suggest that the new or existing homeowner have it looked at by a pro.

 

[restorer]

Just a crazy idea, was the original installation inspected by a building inspector? How comfortable are you in sitting down with the building inspector and the fellow who did the installation and laying it all out, good bad or indifferent. It's my opinion you may have a problem. An unconventional installation does not make it safe and code compliant. Our Summer ///////golfing Ghost would probably flag the install. If you are using a pre-fab chimney, it is good only for the installation it was certified for. Does the chase where the pipe is comply for distance to combustibles. My own mind says you are hot from the outside of the 8" and need to measure from there. Are both pipes code to 2,100*, or 1,800* the old standard. I am not doubting what your neighbor did, but I'm not the flue guru, he may be back sometime this Fall.

 

[psykmyk]

Thanks to all. A question for Uncle Rich, or...
How could I be hot to the 8" when that's the chimney for the former wood burning fireplace? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how the ZC fireplaces are designed. What is the distance to combustibles from the 8" and 12" pipes in these? Thanks!!

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks to all. A question for Uncle Rich, or...
How could I be hot to the 8" when that's the chimney for the former wood burning fireplace? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how the ZC fireplaces are designed. What is the distance to combustibles from the 8" and 12" pipes in these? Thanks!!

It's an interesting question, I would hope that Elk sees this and can comment on it cause he would know the chapter and verse... My understanding is that the original metal chimney is supposed to be air insulated between the 8" inner pipe and the outer 12" shell, and that space was supposed to be vented so that you had some convection airflow cooling. There is probably also a required "clearance to combustibles" around the outside of the 12" pipe, but I don't know just what it would be (ZC stuff isn't quite zero, just a lot less than the usual...)

Running the 6" liner up the middle of the 8" pipe shouldn't be a problem, nor is the vermiculite insulation between the liner and the 8" pipe. That part is good, it should mean the 8" pipe won't get anywhere near as hot as it would with the original fireplace install. What MIGHT raise a red flag is that he also filled what was supposed to be an air space between the 8" pipe and the 12" shell, which, as I understand it, voids out any kind of UL listing the pipe might otherwise have had because the nature of the pipe's cooling has changed. Vermiculite is decent insulation, and will SLOW the heat transfer between the 6" inner liner and the outer shell pipe, but won't stop it. Thus the question becomes whether or not the outer shell gets to the same temps as it would have in the original install, or if it gets warmer, and then whether or not the existing clearances around the outside of the shell pipe are still adequate. I don't know the answer to this, nor do I know how to find out. (I suspect it would be OK, but more than just my guesswork is needed)

If it becomes an issue, would it be feasible to remove the vermiculite from between the 8 and 12" pipes, and restore the chimney to it's original design? That would almost certainly be acceptable as I understand the rules.

Gooserider

 

[webbie]

Thanks to all. A question for Uncle Rich, or...
How could I be hot to the 8" when that's the chimney for the former wood burning fireplace? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how the ZC fireplaces are designed. What is the distance to combustibles from the 8" and 12" pipes in these? Thanks!!

In the case of pre-fab fireplaces there is no guesswork or modification allowed....in other words, this chimney is/was designed to be used as a air cooled vent with the fireplace it is attached to - period. The original clearances were probably 1 or 2 inches.

To be clear, there is no chart or code or anything else that applies. The modification was an "in the field" situation, which certainly sounds like it would pass muster - but there is no paperwork that would say so. It would be more of a common sense issue, which one would have to piece together by looking at the specs for ZC inserts and their suggested lining methods. As stated before, it is the actual clearances of the stove and the pipe (inside the home) which concern me as much as the chimney situation (which, again, certainly sounds safe but there is no documentation on that).

 

[psykmyk]

I appreciate your thoughtful comments. Perhaps it's time for an experiment. I can get access to the 12" pipe via an outside vent. Shall I see if he'll let me fire up the stove to something on the hot side (say 650 F), and see what the 12" pipe heats up to? Also, I think he said that he insulated around the 6" liner with a vermiculite/cement mix but used straight vermiculite between the 8" and 12", so I'll bet it could be vacuumed out of there pretty easily if it's on the hot side.

 

[webbie]

Given the chimney construction you mentioned - 6" liner in the 8" which is in a 12" (with or without vermiculite), I would say the results of your proposed experiment are fairly certain - it will not get hot!

Or, at least not too hot.

My words above were just meant to clarify that there is no code or standard that covers this. I can't say whether it would be cooler or hotter with or without the vermiculite.....but the installation would at least be closer to what is specified in the many zc insert manuals if you did. That stuff flows out very easily.....cut a hole in the bottom and it will run out like sand.

The biggest reason to do that, in my opinion, is that when you sell the house perhaps the next owner will want to go to an open fireplace, and that vermiculite would then definitely be a problem - so, yes.....removing it might be a good move.

 

[Hogwildz]

Why not see how the stove works with the set up as is, before starting a project that may not be needed?
An insulated liner should draft better anyways. You can always suck the vermiculite out at any time. See how it runs first. You may be doing unnecessary work.
The home inspector you hire will merely look at the stove, look in it, might look down the liner inside if he gets up on the roof. And thats about it. Most home inspectors will not disturb permanent walls, fixtures, etc. Most base on what they can see. As stated, in any case, they are privately hired by you. The will not communicate back to the township code officer. You know more about that stove set up than the building inspector will ever know.

 

[psykmyk]

Hi all
I got the go-ahead to fire up the stove, and to stick a thermometer on the 12" pipe. A question: Let's say I get the stove only to 500 F -- how hot should the 12" be to indicate that it wouldn't be too hot if the stove got really hot? I know this depends on lots of factors and is in the realm of guestimating...

It's going to be in the mid 80s today, so that'll be a factor too.