Say a guy wants to buy a catalytic wood stove? What brands are availabe and what's the best to buy? Also, what new stove would have the easiest cat combuster to exchange?
What's the best new catalytic stove?
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Most stoves that where Cat stoves just a few years ago have changed to NON CAT due to the fact that there is Less maintenance, easier to use and Better looking fire. and it saves $100 - $400 for not having a cat.
Welcome Ansel. Can you give a bit more info on what you are seeking? The question is kind of like asking what's the best car. It would help to narrow things down a bit. Do you prefer a steel, cast iron or soapstone stove? How large a space are you heating? What's your budget? Is this your first stove or is it replacing an existing stove?
Well, I burned a Vermont Castings Defiant for a year, and it was great. I got an idea I'll be putting in a Hearthstone Phoenix, but I was just sitting around wondering just how many Cat. stoves are out there yet, one thing about the Defiant, it gave me an easy 10 hours of burn time, and that was into an outside masonry chimney. I'm worried the Phoenix might not be able to do that. I'd put that Defiant in Cat. mode at 6am or so and return around 4:30pm to a bed of coals.....and an easy restart to the fire.....
Sounds like you might want to look at Woodstock stoves then. They combine soapstone with the cat. NY Soapstone is running one and is happy with it.
the manufactures of cat stove that I know of are Englander, Blaze king, Woodstock Buck, and VC which also sells Dutchwest..
If you are getting 10 hourd of profductive heat with yours now then why mess with sucess.
There ia anoyther way to get about 26% more range with your cat stove The only replacable part got better. Instead of waiting for light off at 500 to 550
What if the cat would light of sooner at 380 and last longer as the stove cools down to 380 and still have cat ignition?
What if you could by a replacement Cat combustor that can preform better at half the Manufactures cost for replacement
Stovecombustor,com I am running one now in my IntrepidII going on my second year I noticed 30 to 40 minutes increase of my productive burn time. Productive according to me, is griddle top temps over 400. I have both Cat combustors here to compare and this has been my conclusion, time tested for a year and a half, and tested using both combustors to compare
A larger fire box like yours you might be able to get closer to another hour of productive burn time.
If you are getting 10 hourd of profductive heat with yours now then why mess with sucess.
There ia anoyther way to get about 26% more range with your cat stove The only replacable part got better. Instead of waiting for light off at 500 to 550
What if the cat would light of sooner at 380 and last longer as the stove cools down to 380 and still have cat ignition?
What if you could by a replacement Cat combustor that can preform better at half the Manufactures cost for replacement
Stovecombustor,com I am running one now in my IntrepidII going on my second year I noticed 30 to 40 minutes increase of my productive burn time. Productive according to me, is griddle top temps over 400. I have both Cat combustors here to compare and this has been my conclusion, time tested for a year and a half, and tested using both combustors to compare
A larger fire box like yours you might be able to get closer to another hour of productive burn time.
hey Elk, I don't have that Defiant no more, sold that house and the stove went with it.... Now building another house and thinking of what stove to put in, I might just go with the same thing though, you know, lots of people think Cats are bad but I burned one and it did fine by me.
If you are building new and tight, the Defiant might be too much stove. Calculate the heat loss first to see what will be required. Some really tight house can get by just fine with a smaller stove like the Intrepid. It all depends on how well it's built and insulated, room layout, ceiling height, solar gain, heat retention, etc.
ansehnlich1 said:
The un informed, but to ones that had what you had. running a cat is sweet.. You know all that extra work, engaging and doing nothing for the next 8/ 10 hours, but getting 600+ degree heat
Then reload , 15 minutes later engage that cat, another 8/ 10 hours of even productive heat. More if one just counts enough coals gathered for re ignition, but you want heat and 8+ productive hours is hard to beat at close to 80% effeciency.
Well !, is smokless top loading convient? Having mitten racks and warming shelves? I know I use them. Got a pair of gloves drying out now. My wife uses it to raises homemade bread.
Arrrrh the the open fire screen option. Wife sipping Merlot, lights low watching the dancing open flame, Got to stop there, family forum.
elkimmeg said:
haha, you made me laugh, family forum,
but you described that defiant just right, i'd load er up, go to work, come home, open the bypass, load er again, wait a few, then engage the cat and forget about it.
and the top loading too was as good as it gets, yep, had them warmin shelves and everything.....cute wife too
ansehnlich1 said:but you described that defiant just right, i'd load er up, go to work, come home, open the bypass, load er again, wait a few, then engage the cat and forget about it.
and the top loading too was as good as it gets, yep, had them warmin shelves and everything.....cute wife too
Add the thermostatic dampering and it's about as good as it gets.
You calling me a Troll?Sandor said:
I dont see you with an Answer.
I dont have any stoves on my showroom that are Cat.
hearthtools said:
Odd, Now that you mention it ...................... <thread highjack sorry>
The 3 local wood stove dealers i went to + the two farm stores that had wood stoves , not one of them had a stove that was catalytic , one dealer could order VC but didnt stock them for lack of sales ( what they said )
one sells what the customers request
Can we be civil and not get into anothe pissing war just check the amount of post from you guys you are both regulars here cut the crap.
As I was saying, maybe another glass of Merlot for the wife, no lights on now just watching the dancing open flames. Boy its getting hot in here
Can we be civil and not get into anothe pissing war just check the amount of post from you guys you are both regulars here cut the crap.
As I was saying, maybe another glass of Merlot for the wife, no lights on now just watching the dancing open flames. Boy its getting hot in here
Sandor said:
Sandor,
What's with the name-calling? The guy simply stated an opinion about cat-vs non-cat and for that, you call him a "troll"??? You didn't answer the question either....does that mean I should also call you a "troll"????? Oh....so you don't also call me names, my vote for best small cat is the VC Intrepid II in black enamel!
Bottom line: Careful about name-calling Sandor or you could be joining Dylan in a "time-out"....it would give you plenty of time to come up with new names you could call people other than "troll"....LOL
I have realy changed my outlook on cat stoves since i started hanging out here. Before i was educated about catalytic stoves, i figuered catalytic stoves were junk. Since most manufactures dont produce them, thats the image they portray. I too, like Hearthtools (troll) LMAO, i dont have a single catalytic stove on the floor. Not many are made any longer. If i were going to buy one, i would pick Woodstock first, the VC second, but i think there the only two quality manufactures making them any more.. i could be wrong. My reasoning is simple, im a soapstone type of guy.
What is the main reason that more manufacturers are not producing cat stoves? Obviously it is the end consumer. But was it b/c stove owners not properly running stove clogging up cat and therefore stove owner complaining, having to babysit stove until cat lits off, cost of cat replacement, supposed poor flame quality of cat stoves...........
sstanis said:
I guess to answer you question we need to go back a bit in history. When Oregon first passed emissions regs., the precursor to the Epa regs, It caught many manufactures by surprise. Engineering and redesigning was required Which was cost prohibited for many smaller manufactures and they closed shop. One of the early attempts was to retrofit a combustor into existing designs. For the most part that was placing it in the just below the flue collar outlet. They clogged and became ineffective plus blocked the smoke path the stoves newer got up to temps for them of operate effectively. It was evident that stoves had to reach a high enough temp for the cat to fire off. A bypass was needed before sending smoke threw the cat. There was more to it than that what was needed was a secondary combustion chamber to hold in enough heat to have the cat continue to fire that meant a secondary combustion chamber and a way to get the stove up to cat ignition point, this required more levers to be regulated more user input more knowledge of how to burn and what time to activate the cat. This secondary bypass and chamber had to hold in the smoke longer for burn off to take place this resulted is weaker drafts a Cat stove preformed poorer then its replacement in the same chimney setup. A cat stove requires a better draft and better draft conditions, to function correctly. That old beast., out of brute strength. Would heat up that 12/12-clay flue where the cat stove preformed less than stellar Naturally complaints mounted. Finally the industry and code addressed the cross-sectional area issues causing l poor drafts of EPA stoves. All the time manufactures were researching for cat alternatives and perfecting secondary combustion without cats.
In a way the cats are responsible and paved the way for modern secondary combustion stoves Draft issues were being addressed and pave the way.
To an extent manufactures and dealers were a big part of the ways things turned out One the manufactures could and should have selected dealers better. Ones that would take the time to educate the consumers, as to what venting requirements were needed and how to operate the stove correctly. After just selling stoves that did not have a chance in hell of drafting correctly on existing setups and complaints mounted the dealers took a different approach Why sell cat stoves at all. Now we have less draft sensitive not cat stoves to push the customer to. At this time the myth started and dealers discouraged consumers from buying cat stoves. They became too expensive to operate and it was the very dealers that dissed the cat stoves. Making false excuses for not pre qualifying their customer needs and draft situations. Again not the dealers here, but the ones, that only the sale counts ones.
Did you know that Jotul made a cat stove till 1998 So why did some manufactures continue manufacturing cat stoves? Well they had bragging right to the cleanest stoves made, while other manufactures struggled to meet EPA guidelines of 63% efficiency Some cat stove manufactures were approaching 80% Until last year no manufacturer had surpassed a cat stove efficiency and the one that did was the one selling still manufacturing the cats. Truth be told if the dealers had taken the time to qualify their customers and educate them instead of dissing the technology, Cats would be a bigger part of the market. Had the told the consumer they burn cleaner and longer and that the cat combuster puts out 18% more BTU than similar non cat stoves , cat stoves would have experienced more acceptance
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Part 2
One major cat manufacturer when bought out also led to its product demise and market share. The new cooperate owners were not concerned about quality but about milking the name and spreadsheets. This angered dealers who soon dropped this manufactures lines and many loyal employees fled the company and others took early retirement. Two years ago it was touch and go if this manufacturer would exist Fortunately they survived and it new owners pumped necessary funds into R&D so that they were able to create a everburn technology the produced an astounding .7 grams a plateau never reached before.
So why do they still manufacture cat stoves? Well it smaller cat stove. is probably the stove best suited to address the smaller area large room needs. It burns clean and the cat added the extra Btus and lengthened to burn time to almost any stove has with this fire box size. They manufactured the same stove without the cat but it could not compete with big brother cat it did not perform in any category as well burn time but output and clean burns all lagging behind. The non-cat model is no longer manufactured. Even its mid model, with all the hype of everburn, is rated at 40,000 buts the cat model is 47,000btus
What about other manufacture like Woodstock.. Remember about the exit of former employees from the largest cat manufacturer, well some of them ended up at Woodstock and brought these ideas and experiences with them. Imagine a soapstone stove approaching 80% efficiency.
Disclaimer a lot of this is derived from my own conclusions and knowing the history of how the woodstove industry evolved. It is not 1005 factual as I guessed about human nature and dealer’s behaviors. Some of the chronology or dates maybe skewed a bit. And I welcome any corrections and clarifications. I am burning two of the very Cat models I referenced exceeding my expectations my furnace has yet to fire for heat I could not make that claim last year. Part of that was the unseasonably warmth we had but after a week solid of below normal temps and multi single digits night, I have yet to hear my furnace fire. Even during this cold my home has never been warmer ever
One major cat manufacturer when bought out also led to its product demise and market share. The new cooperate owners were not concerned about quality but about milking the name and spreadsheets. This angered dealers who soon dropped this manufactures lines and many loyal employees fled the company and others took early retirement. Two years ago it was touch and go if this manufacturer would exist Fortunately they survived and it new owners pumped necessary funds into R&D so that they were able to create a everburn technology the produced an astounding .7 grams a plateau never reached before.
So why do they still manufacture cat stoves? Well it smaller cat stove. is probably the stove best suited to address the smaller area large room needs. It burns clean and the cat added the extra Btus and lengthened to burn time to almost any stove has with this fire box size. They manufactured the same stove without the cat but it could not compete with big brother cat it did not perform in any category as well burn time but output and clean burns all lagging behind. The non-cat model is no longer manufactured. Even its mid model, with all the hype of everburn, is rated at 40,000 buts the cat model is 47,000btus
What about other manufacture like Woodstock.. Remember about the exit of former employees from the largest cat manufacturer, well some of them ended up at Woodstock and brought these ideas and experiences with them. Imagine a soapstone stove approaching 80% efficiency.
Disclaimer a lot of this is derived from my own conclusions and knowing the history of how the woodstove industry evolved. It is not 1005 factual as I guessed about human nature and dealer’s behaviors. Some of the chronology or dates maybe skewed a bit. And I welcome any corrections and clarifications. I am burning two of the very Cat models I referenced exceeding my expectations my furnace has yet to fire for heat I could not make that claim last year. Part of that was the unseasonably warmth we had but after a week solid of below normal temps and multi single digits night, I have yet to hear my furnace fire. Even during this cold my home has never been warmer ever
If it was easy to forget all the problems i had with consumers of cat stoves, it would have been easier to sell them. Its still fresh in my mind even after 6 years ago..
"my cat is worn out, is it under warrenty?"
"my stove smokes when i engage the cat"
"its HOW MUCH to replace that cat?"
"what do ya mean i cant burn trash in that stove" (NO stove should have trash burn through it!)
Of course, there are simple solutions for all these problems, but, alot of consumers dont understand how they work. Its less problems for us a retailers, and with that its easier for manufactures, to sell non-cat stoves. the 10% efficency lost be damned. New non cat stoves are pretty much plug and play with the proper chimney.
"my cat is worn out, is it under warrenty?"
"my stove smokes when i engage the cat"
"its HOW MUCH to replace that cat?"
"what do ya mean i cant burn trash in that stove" (NO stove should have trash burn through it!)
Of course, there are simple solutions for all these problems, but, alot of consumers dont understand how they work. Its less problems for us a retailers, and with that its easier for manufactures, to sell non-cat stoves. the 10% efficency lost be damned. New non cat stoves are pretty much plug and play with the proper chimney.
With new secondary combustion stoves the draft became more sensitive in order for the to perform. again Code was revised to recognize this issue
In Canada no insert can be installed without a liner In USA we looked at the most problematic situation the use of larger fireplace flues having a cross-sectional area.
To large to heat up with the conventional flue collar. Exterior chimneys even more problematic something had to be done. Not only was it a draft issues but direct connections
became a health hazard. They developed into creosote factories. Many were not installed with block off plates but loose fiberglass insulation that soon fell out of place by either a strong wind or connecting moisture from condensation during the summer months the added moisture added weight to the insulation causing it to shift and fall out. Now you had intrusion of room air
that further cooled that direct connection liner accelerating creosote build up Too many chimney fires offered too many poor draft complaints . 2003 NFPA 211 changes the cross-sectional code again identifying exterior locations problems and changer the 3x cross-sectional area of the flue collar to 2x what that did for 6” flue collars was eliminate all 8/12 clay flues or larger and that only 8/8 clay masonry flues could be exposed to the exterior It al but mandated all fireplace flues located on exterior walls to be lined to achieve cross-sectional code compliance
Almost every Cat stove would work in this current code setup
In Canada no insert can be installed without a liner In USA we looked at the most problematic situation the use of larger fireplace flues having a cross-sectional area.
To large to heat up with the conventional flue collar. Exterior chimneys even more problematic something had to be done. Not only was it a draft issues but direct connections
became a health hazard. They developed into creosote factories. Many were not installed with block off plates but loose fiberglass insulation that soon fell out of place by either a strong wind or connecting moisture from condensation during the summer months the added moisture added weight to the insulation causing it to shift and fall out. Now you had intrusion of room air
that further cooled that direct connection liner accelerating creosote build up Too many chimney fires offered too many poor draft complaints . 2003 NFPA 211 changes the cross-sectional code again identifying exterior locations problems and changer the 3x cross-sectional area of the flue collar to 2x what that did for 6” flue collars was eliminate all 8/12 clay flues or larger and that only 8/8 clay masonry flues could be exposed to the exterior It al but mandated all fireplace flues located on exterior walls to be lined to achieve cross-sectional code compliance
Almost every Cat stove would work in this current code setup
i completly agree!!
I actually miss my ace in the hole cat stove when i had a sale pending on a less then perfect chimney, these days, i just loose the sale.
I actually miss my ace in the hole cat stove when i had a sale pending on a less then perfect chimney, these days, i just loose the sale.
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