When to turn down the air?

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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
104,666
South Puget Sound, WA
I've noticed many people report that their typical startup procedure with a cold stove is to wait until the stove top temperature reaches 500ºF before beginning to turn down the air. That might work for a small, thin shelled steel stove that reacts quickly to temperature change. but it can be much too late for a stove with a lot of mass to heat up. In today's modern stoves the firebox is often insulated to help the fire get up to temperature as quickly as possible so that secondary combustion and clean burning commence. If the wood is dry the fire can have robust secondary combustion long before the stove top reaches 500º. It's better to use your eyes or a flue thermometer to determine when to start closing down the air, than relying on stove top temp. Turning down the air earlier reduces stress on the stove and on the flue system and it can extend burn time.

Flue temperatures are read with a surface thermometer on single-wall stove pipe or a probe thermometer on double-wall stove pipe. A good point to start turning down the air is about 300º on a surface thermometer and 500º on a probe thermometer. A probe will be a bit more accurate as the probe is directly in the hot flue gas stream. You will need your eyes to determine how quickly to turn down the air and how much. This will depend on several factors like how dry the wood is, the thickness of the splits, the species of wood and the strength of the draft. A good starting point is a 50% reduction with the air control half closed. If the fire gets lazy at this point, then wait a few minutes to let it regain strength. If the fire is still burning very strongly, reduce the air another 50% down to 25% (1/4) open. If the fire is very weak or smoldering then open up the air control until the fire regains strength, then try closing down the air again in 5-10 min..

Examples:
As noted, the setting for the air control will vary, but with dry wood and large splits on a cold start I would typically be starting to turn down the air on the Jotul Castine (F400) with a probe flue temp of 500º even though the stove top temperature was only 350º. From that point the air was turned down incrementally over the next 10-15 minutes. After about 40 minutes the stove top would finally be at 500º.

This morning I reloaded the Alderlea T6 on some hot coals. The is a heavy stove with a lot of mass. The stove top temp was 225º. The doug fir pieces I loaded were on the small side and ignited quickly. I returned to Hearth.com, typing up this posting and went a few minutes past when the timer went off. When I got to the stove there was a big ball of flames inside. The flue temp was at 1000º! and I could smell the paint baking. I turned down the air all the way and the fire settled down quickly. At this point, the stove top temp was only 285º. Had I waited until the stove top reached 500º I would have definitely overfired the stove and seriously stressed the flue system, not to mention wasting a lot of fuel. The stove top did reach 500º about 20 minutes later.

As one can see, with a secondary combustion stove, flue temperatures are more helpful than stove top temperatures. I mostly go by flue temperatures alone for guidance and by the look of the fire. For us, the stove top temperature is only relevant for avoid overfiring and if we are going to be cooking on the stove top. This guidance is for non-cat stoves. For a catalytic stove follow the manufacturer's guidance. A catalytic thermometer is a good guide for when to close the bypass and regulate the air.
 
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I have a cat stove but I agree, a flue meter reacts more quickly than anything else to temps at the flue exit, which is what you need to know to keep from overheating or glowing :oops: your tee, pipe or liner. Not that I have ever done that. <> Agreed also that the operator must stay on top of what is happening when ramping up a load; Temps soar in a hurry if you have a good bit of air feeding a load that quickly takes off. Use your phone timer to keep from getting distracted. I'm not a fan of running the air wide open for very long when ramping up, although that will vary depending on draft and what stove you run. I have 16' of stack and I am running at around 50% air in less than 10 minutes. I never want to see a "ball of flames" for the reasons you mention..localized stress to stove and chimney parts.
I don't know how my readings relate to a standard setup (top-vented stove with a surface meter on single-wall connector pipe, at 12-18" above the stove top.) My stove is rear-vented into a masonry fireplace and I have a surface meter lying on the tee snout about 6" behind the rear flue exit. I generally run that meter up to about 450-500, cut the air to level it there for 10-15 minutes, then close the bypass and cut the air in a couple of steps.
 
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Begreen. I have an enviro Kodiak insert. I have it it completely closed and a solid secondary burn going. My heat gun is registering 645° at the secondary air tubes. This is the hottest I've ran the stove to date. (First season burning) under the air vent at the flue collar I am getting 430°. I assume this is a safe temp? Been burning pine but loaded it with some oak tonight to try and keep a longer burn. It's 34° out. Thanks
 
Inserts are a bit more challenging because it's harder to read flue temps. An IR gun for some inserts can be handy if one can get an easy direct shot there. 430º at the flue collar is fine. Another option is to put a remote probe on the liner and read it with a display like Auber makes. The reading off the secondary tubes through the glass is not too meaningful.
 
Could you drop a link to a flue reader for a BK Ashford insert? Manual states I believe to open it up until wood is charred... is this too long? Or wait till it’s in cat zone?


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Not too bad though it's not a necessity with a cat insert that already has a cat thermometer built in.
 
The input is much appreciated begreen. I have started turning the air down sooner and have found that it leads to getting to a nice efficient secondary burn quicker.
 
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Thanks @begreen - I was just thinking of putting a post about this very subject as I've noticed that my little Jotul F100 tends to take a while for the stove top temp. to get up to the 'burn zone' while the flue thermo. has already reached it. I'm thinking, based on your info, that I should start cutting back the air when the flue temps are in the zone rather than wait for the stove top temp. to get there.
 
I need a double wall flue thermometer. Never used one, I just use the one on my stove top but you're right, I do tend to throttle back based on those temps. That being said, do you just drill a hole into the flue and stick the probe thermometer in? I assume probe is the way to go and not just magnetic?
 
No pics of an install yet but i just use the screw on surface probe screwed to the liner as high as i can get it
Would this only be on a heavy duty liner?
 
The time lag on my catalyst probe has a similar problem; I would waste half a load waiting for it to creep into "active" range despite a full box of flames I can see with my own eyes. I'm interested in the catalyst probes for my Blaze King insert. Any tutorial with pictures on how to install it?
 
Would this only be on a heavy duty liner?
That is all i use so yes. But very good point with lightwall liner it will have to be attaced to the fitting. In which case it will read pretty high but still be useful.
 
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That is all i use so yes. But very good point with lightwall liner it will have to be attaced to the fitting. In which case it will read pretty high but still be useful.

Have you installed any with the slave unit? Was wondering what the range on the master reader was. Didn't find it on website or in install manual.
 
I've noticed many people report that their typical startup procedure with a cold stove is to wait until the stove top temperature reaches 500ºF before beginning to turn down the air. That might work for a small, thin shelled steel stove that reacts quickly to temperature change. but it can be much too late for a stove with a lot of mass to heat up. In today's modern stoves the firebox is often insulated to help the fire get up to temperature as quickly as possible so that secondary combustion and clean burning commence. If the wood is dry the fire can have robust secondary combustion long before the stove top reaches 500º. It's better to use your eyes or a flue thermometer to determine when to start closing down the air, than relying on stove top temp. Turning down the air earlier reduces stress on the stove and on the flue system and it can extend burn time.

Flue temperatures are read with a surface thermometer on single-wall stove pipe or a probe thermometer on double-wall stove pipe. A good point to start turning down the air is about 300º on a surface thermometer and 500º on a probe thermometer. A probe will be a bit more accurate as the probe is directly in the hot flue gas stream. You will need your eyes to determine how quickly to turn down the air and how much. This will depend on several factors like how dry the wood is, the thickness of the splits, the species of wood and the strength of the draft. A good starting point is a 50% reduction with the air control half closed. If the fire gets lazy at this point, then wait a few minutes to let it regain strength. If the fire is still burning very strongly, reduce the air another 50% down to 25% (1/4) open. If the fire is very weak or smoldering then open up the air control until the fire regains strength, then try closing down the air again in 5-10 min..

Examples:
As noted, the setting for the air control will vary, but with dry wood and large splits on a cold start I would typically be starting to turn down the air on the Jotul Castine (F400) with a probe flue temp of 500º even though the stove top temperature was only 350º. From that point the air was turned down incrementally over the next 10-15 minutes. After about 40 minutes the stove top would finally be at 500º.

This morning I reloaded the Alderlea T6 on some hot coals. The is a heavy stove with a lot of mass. The stove top temp was 225º. The doug fir pieces I loaded were on the small side and ignited quickly. I returned to Hearth.com, typing up this posting and went a few minutes past when the timer went off. When I got to the stove there was a big ball of flames inside. The flue temp was at 1000º! and I could smell the paint baking. I turned down the air all the way and the fire settled down quickly. At this point, the stove top temp was only 285º. Had I waited until the stove top reached 500º I would have definitely overfired the stove and seriously stressed the flue system, not to mention wasting a lot of fuel. The stove top did reach 500º about 20 minutes later.

As one can see, with a secondary combustion stove, flue temperatures are more helpful than stove top temperatures. I mostly go by flue temperatures alone for guidance and by the look of the fire. For us, the stove top temperature is only relevant for avoid overfiring and if we are going to be cooking on the stove top. This guidance is for non-cat stoves. For a catalytic stove follow the manufacturer's guidance. A catalytic thermometer is a good guide for when to close the bypass and regulate the air.
Nice post I only go by flue temps and my stovetop doesn't start getting hot until I turn the air down flue temp drops and stovetop temperature rises after I cut air

2018 drolet ht2000
 
Nice post I only go by flue temps and my stovetop doesn't start getting hot until I turn the air down flue temp drops and stovetop temperature rises after I cut air
Yes, the HT2000 has a lot of mass to heat up too.
 
Have you installed any with the slave unit? Was wondering what the range on the master reader was. Didn't find it on website or in install manual.
No
 
I've noticed many people report that their typical startup procedure with a cold stove is to wait until the stove top temperature reaches 500ºF before beginning to turn down the air. That might work for a small, thin shelled steel stove that reacts quickly to temperature change. but it can be much too late for a stove with a lot of mass to heat up. In today's modern stoves the firebox is often insulated to help the fire get up to temperature as quickly as possible so that secondary combustion and clean burning commence. If the wood is dry the fire can have robust secondary combustion long before the stove top reaches 500º. It's better to use your eyes or a flue thermometer to determine when to start closing down the air, than relying on stove top temp. Turning down the air earlier reduces stress on the stove and on the flue system and it can extend burn time.

Flue temperatures are read with a surface thermometer on single-wall stove pipe or a probe thermometer on double-wall stove pipe. A good point to start turning down the air is about 300º on a surface thermometer and 500º on a probe thermometer. A probe will be a bit more accurate as the probe is directly in the hot flue gas stream. You will need your eyes to determine how quickly to turn down the air and how much. This will depend on several factors like how dry the wood is, the thickness of the splits, the species of wood and the strength of the draft. A good starting point is a 50% reduction with the air control half closed. If the fire gets lazy at this point, then wait a few minutes to let it regain strength. If the fire is still burning very strongly, reduce the air another 50% down to 25% (1/4) open. If the fire is very weak or smoldering then open up the air control until the fire regains strength, then try closing down the air again in 5-10 min..

Examples:
As noted, the setting for the air control will vary, but with dry wood and large splits on a cold start I would typically be starting to turn down the air on the Jotul Castine (F400) with a probe flue temp of 500º even though the stove top temperature was only 350º. From that point the air was turned down incrementally over the next 10-15 minutes. After about 40 minutes the stove top would finally be at 500º.

This morning I reloaded the Alderlea T6 on some hot coals. The is a heavy stove with a lot of mass. The stove top temp was 225º. The doug fir pieces I loaded were on the small side and ignited quickly. I returned to Hearth.com, typing up this posting and went a few minutes past when the timer went off. When I got to the stove there was a big ball of flames inside. The flue temp was at 1000º! and I could smell the paint baking. I turned down the air all the way and the fire settled down quickly. At this point, the stove top temp was only 285º. Had I waited until the stove top reached 500º I would have definitely overfired the stove and seriously stressed the flue system, not to mention wasting a lot of fuel. The stove top did reach 500º about 20 minutes later.

As one can see, with a secondary combustion stove, flue temperatures are more helpful than stove top temperatures. I mostly go by flue temperatures alone for guidance and by the look of the fire. For us, the stove top temperature is only relevant for avoid overfiring and if we are going to be cooking on the stove top. This guidance is for non-cat stoves. For a catalytic stove follow the manufacturer's guidance. A catalytic thermometer is a good guide for when to close the bypass and regulate the air.

I turn down the air after it reaches about 300. The temp then rises pretty quickly. Does the quadra fire 3100i stove have a flue? I believe when the chimney guy came he said it didn't need a flue. What exactly is a flue? Feel stupid for asking bit I am not familiar with it and would like to learn as.much as I can as we plan as using the stove for our primary heat source.
 
I turn down the air after it reaches about 300. The temp then rises pretty quickly. Does the quadra fire 3100i stove have a flue? I believe when the chimney guy came he said it didn't need a flue. What exactly is a flue? Feel stupid for asking bit I am not familiar with it and would like to learn as.much as I can as we plan as using the stove for our primary heat source.
A flue is the passage from the stove to the outside. Basically your chimney. But the chimney is the whole structure and can have multiple flues. You mean a damper which no you quad doesnt have one it is controlled with the air intake.
 
A flue is the passage from the stove to the outside. Basically your chimney. But the chimney is the whole structure and can have multiple flues. You mean a damper which no you quad doesnt have one it is controlled with the air intake.
Thanks for clearing that up. How donu measure the flue temp or is the stove top temp sufficient enough?
 
Thanks for clearing that up. How donu measure the flue temp or is the stove top temp sufficient enough?
With an insert it is hard the only way is with a remote thermometer.