Which Boiler to buy

[rotaxman]

Hello,
I've read several threads here in the boiler room but can't decide on what to do.
I'd really appreciate a few idea's or recommendations. a few years ago we planned on an OWB but plans were put on hold and I'm starting almost from scratch.
My heat load is approx. 45,000 btu at -30c and we just finished more than 30 days straight of those temps so that's a pretty accurate #. Coldest February on record. I have in floor radiant heated electrically in the basement concrete floor and in floor radiant on the main floor which is half wood floor and half tile, the open loft is currently heated from the main floor wood fireplace.
New system is planned as follows:
radiant in floor basement 900 sq ft
radiant in floor main floor 900 sq ft
radiant in floor loft 160 sq ft
3 small radiators in loft 300 sq ft
Garage in floor radiant 1000 sq ft
water will be heated by a wood fired boiler (brand TBD) with an electric boiler back-up (BTH Ultra). Garage will have a wood stove inside, back-up to the radiant when I'm working in the garage. I have lots of scrap wood.
Our living situation is that we are away from the house during the week for 10 hours each day and would prefer not to use the electric boiler therefore the wood fired boiler would have to provide enough heat. not sure if that is in the form of a long burn or water storage. Oh, the boiler will be outside (not negotiable), storage could be inside or outside. however I prefer not to install storage unless it makes perfect sense.
My only questions are:
would you recommend a gasification type boiler? or regular OWB
I'm looking at an Orlanski 200 model 60 (EKO 60) are they the exact same boilers? Orlanski vs EKO
If I went with the EKO 60 instead of the 40 (bigger firebox) will I be wasting wood with idling, or is that an issue I have to deal with because I need 10 hours?
Is going with a 60 instead of a 40 the difference between storage or no storage?
I'm using the EKO as an example but open to any reasonably priced boilers. Also, my cost for firewood is very low so it's not a reason to sway me one way or another unless it doubles my wood consumption.
I burn 10 face cord of red maple each year. the fire is lit in early Dec. and burns until late March. with small fires outside that time frame.
I appreciate any advice anyone can provide. I spoke (email) briefly with No Fossil and I plan on using a Vesta which should help with efficiency.
Thank you.

 

[maple1]

Do you mean, you will be away for 10 hours a day?

Even though you sound leery of it, I would do storage. I can't speak for how the EKOs work without it or when idling to get you that 10 hours, but I do have storage - and it works. It's a true game changer. This winter, I am burning only 6-8 hours a day. The rest of the time the fire is out & I'm coasting on storage. It also eliminates creosote production. Even though the EKO (or perhaps others) could idle through that time without storage, they will be making some creosote while doing it despite being gasifiers. Hopefully some EKO owners will chime in though with their direct experiences. Only 'drawback' to burning with storage is that you need to make a new fire every day - if you want to call that a drawback. I did it the other way (light a fire once in the fall & just feed it all winter)for 17 years, wouldn't go back to those days for anything.

If you don't want the boiler inside, I would put it in an outbuilding/shed big enough for the boiler, and the entire winters wood. Then the storage in the basement. It doesn't really take up a whole pile of room. My 660 gallons are in a footprint about 4' wide & 10' long, allowing for insulation. Maybe add a couple feet in that length for space for piping & pumps etc.. I would really like to have 1000 gallons, that would only add 6" to each dimension.

I also have an electric boiler for backup, it is rarely used. 2 days two years ago, one day last year, and not at all this year - just because I caught a bug & couldn't do the Xmas trip to the inlaws thing.

 

[rotaxman]

Do you mean, you will be away for 10 hours a day?

Even though you sound leery of it, I would do storage. I can't speak for how the EKOs work without it or when idling to get you that 10 hours, but I do have storage - and it works. It's a true game changer. This winter, I am burning only 6-8 hours a day. The rest of the time the fire is out & I'm coasting on storage. It also eliminates creosote production. Even though the EKO (or perhaps others) could idle through that time without storage, they will be making some creosote while doing it despite being gasifiers. Hopefully some EKO owners will chime in though with their direct experiences. Only 'drawback' to burning with storage is that you need to make a new fire every day - if you want to call that a drawback. I did it the other way (light a fire once in the fall & just feed it all winter)for 17 years, wouldn't go back to those days for anything.

If you don't want the boiler inside, I would put it in an outbuilding/shed big enough for the boiler, and the entire winters wood. Then the storage in the basement. It doesn't really take up a whole pile of room. My 660 gallons are in a footprint about 4' wide & 10' long, allowing for insulation. Maybe add a couple feet in that length for space for piping & pumps etc.. I would really like to have 1000 gallons, that would only add 6" to each dimension.

I also have an electric boiler for backup, it is rarely used. 2 days two years ago, one day last year, and not at all this year - just because I caught a bug & couldn't do the Xmas trip to the inlaws thing.

sorry, yes 10 hours per day. fixed my post.
my father in law sounded almost excited today about welding up a storage unit so maybe not as big a deal as I expected. A shed is for sure, for the boiler and all the wood, and now....maybe storage. i watched a video on the boiler you have, looks good, Swedish made is usually good.
what the winter temps at your home outside. I can get used to one fire per day if that is possible

 

[maple1]

Its been cold here this winter, maybe not as cold as western Quebec though. These days around -10-15c night and -5c or so days.

If you can find some and get them into your basement, used propane tanks are usually the best bet for storage. You can check my install thread too in my Sig for more info on mine. You'd have to be very careful in making your own, if keeping everything pressurized.

Biggest change for me, aside from having to make a new fire every day, was not having to stay up late stuffing the boiler full one last time, and not having to rush to it first thing in the morning before I was awake to stuff it again. Now, the fire is mostly out by 10pm, and I don't have to go to the boiler the next day till late afternoon. Storage gives a lot of flexibility. Some guys burn twice a day, morning and evening. You can fit it to your schedule. And with all the radiant you have, that works even better with storage than my baseboard.

 

[Hydronics]

Storage is the best setup particularly on warmer spring and summer days. I can tell you first hand that an eko will operate well even without storage. During warmer days you'll want to let it go out and burn at night only. You can easily get 12+ hours out of a 60 but you'd want to load it only as necessary based on forecasted temps.
You might consider putting it in the outbuilding and putting necessary tees and valves in basement so you can install storage after the first season if you deem it worthwhile.
Gassers definitely need dry wood to burn well.
By the way I am satisfied with my eko 60. Orlanski, Orlan and eko are the same, I believe AHONA now carries another iteration of the boiler with lambda control.

 

[rotaxman]

Its been cold here this winter, maybe not as cold as western Quebec though. These days around -10-15c night and -5c or so days.

If you can find some and get them into your basement, used propane tanks are usually the best bet for storage. You can check my install thread too in my Sig for more info on mine. You'd have to be very careful in making your own, if keeping everything pressurized.

Biggest change for me, aside from having to make a new fire every day, was not having to stay up late stuffing the boiler full one last time, and not having to rush to it first thing in the morning before I was awake to stuff it again. Now, the fire is mostly out by 10pm, and I don't have to go to the boiler the next day till late afternoon. Storage gives a lot of flexibility. Some guys burn twice a day, morning and evening. You can fit it to your schedule. And with all the radiant you have, that works even better with storage than my baseboard.

your winter now is closer to our typical winter so that gives me a good idea what it would be for me and I'd be happy with making 2 fires now and then anyway, I'll load up on cedar starter wood. thanks for the info.

 

[maple1]

Next few days we're supposed to get to the freezing mark or just about. Was -11c this morning.

 

[BoilerBob]

Do a search on "Garn Jr" it is available with electric backup.

Efficiency, Storage, Controls and backup all in one unit. Less plumbing =

 

[flyingcow]

Do storage no matter how you do it. Just have it. Size it right. You'll love having it.

 

[goosegunner]

I have used my Econoburn 200 both with and without storage. I can tell you with storage is so much nicer I would recommend that be in your plans from the beginning. It removes the urgency to get to the wood boiler because, "Oh its been 10 hours I better get out there". The buffer time just really makes a huge difference. With that heat loss and 1000 gallons of storage I would be doing 2 fires a day, but I do have forced air not radiant.

Since you have all radiant I would recommend seriously looking at the Garn. I would caution If going that route I would consider going bigger than the Jr with 1000 gallons. Mostly due to the short actual burn time. You would need to do the math to see how long storage would actually last.

gg

 

[velvetfoot]

I'm no expert, for sure, but will radiant slab heat in the garage be worth it? I can see it consuming a lot of BTUs.

 

[salecker]

Hi Rotaxman
I have a Econoburn 200 with 1000 gals storage.Storage is king.When we are at - 40 we burn about 10 hrs and coast the remainder of the day.Right now we have had spring like conditions for the last 3 weeks,and we have been burning 3 to 4 hrs a day.
Storage helps most boiler be efficient.Our boiler,storage, wood and backup oil boiler is in another building.That keeps the mess,smoke and danger out of our house.About 4 yrs ago a family died up here from carbon monoxide poisoning.After that happened i was really glad i had decided to build a separate building to house my heating system.And the added piece of mind of not having a flame source in our home.We have Cast Iron Rads in our hose and they are awesome,even at -40 we have a comfortable home with no cold spots in the house.
Thomas

 

[heaterman]

I'll second the Garn with the electric element kit. I'm wondering if you have "off peak" power rates available in your area of Quebec?
If so, you may find it's more economical to charge a thermal storage vessel during those hours and pull heat from that than it is burning wood.

I know in the upper Midwest and plains states off peak power can be extremely cheap. Check with your utility company and see.
I have heard rumors of Garns up along the Missouri river basin that are providing heat via electric and have never had a wood fire in them.

 

[rotaxman]

thank you all for your input, all good comments. Those of you recommending Garn, can I ask why? my challenge is figuring out which one is better and why, they all seem like excellent boilers. As for electric, yes we have some of the cheapest electric rates here in Quebec, $.06 KWh for first lot and then up to $.09 I think but it costs me $400/yr for all hard maple firewood which is 25% of what it costs to heat with electric the past couple of long winters. Salecker, your house sounds similar to mine, my profile pic. very large white pine, 9 rounds per 11ft wall with 4x8 sheets of 9 1/4 inch styrofoam in the roof. how did you get R80?
anyhow....I'm sold on the storage, sounds like 1000 gallons is the way to go. I will make room for it in the shed.
I will do my best to stop any heat transfer from the garage slab to the cold outdoors, but even if it isn't the most economical, I like a warm floor in the garage, melts the snow off the sled and vehicles. It takes very little hot water actually.

 

[hobbyheater]

. Those of you recommending Garn, can I ask why?.

Simplicity, and good record for parts availability even for their early units that now are over 30 years old.

.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[heaterman]

Are those standard KW rates? Have you checked to see if your hydro costs are less if used during specific hours of the day?
At $.06/KW your cost per million btu figures out to about $17.80. I know that in areas of the Western US off peak rates are as low as $.03-.04/KW
Now you're looking at cost per MMbtu of less than $10 which makes wood burning pretty dicey from a labor standpoint.

Once you get to those price ranges you could easily heat very cheaply in the shoulder seasons (October-November and April-May) with electric only, then fire up the Garn when winter gets serious about it.
Selling some firewood you might otherwise burn could help offset the cost of the electricity and the cost of the boiler.
Just a thought.......

 

[rotaxman]

Are those standard KW rates? Have you checked to see if your hydro costs are less if used during specific hours of the day?
At $.06/KW your cost per million btu figures out to about $17.80. I know that in areas of the Western US off peak rates are as low as $.03-.04/KW
Now you're looking at cost per MMbtu of less than $10 which makes wood burning pretty dicey from a labor standpoint.

Once you get to those price ranges you could easily heat very cheaply in the shoulder seasons (October-November and April-May) with electric only, then fire up the Garn when winter gets serious about it.
Selling some firewood you might otherwise burn could help offset the cost of the electricity and the cost of the boiler.
Just a thought.......

it's .06 for first x # kw all day and around8_10 after that all day. right now i'm paying $16/day for approx 7 kw or 22000 btu for 60% of my heat or $500/mth plus wood. for jan and feb. we have very cold and long winters. that cost alone will pay for 2 years wood. the more i think about it, storage will save me a ton, almost no waste. excited just thinking about it . it means another i can buy another motorized toy

 

[salecker]

[. Salecker, your house sounds similar to mine, my profile pic. very large white pine, 9 rounds per 11ft wall with 4x8 sheets of 9 1/4 inch styrofoam in the roof. how did you get R80?[/quote]
Hi Rotaxman
We have 11 ft walls as well.I used parallel cord trusses for our roof.We have a huge log ridge beam and the trusses were 26" deep.Two layers of r 40 bat insulation with staggered seams.in the 12/12 pitch parts of the roof,if you measure straight up the insulation is actually R 120,we have two shed dormer roof lines that are at 5/12 pitch and those are closer to R 80 than R 120.we did the insulation ourselves and i made sure i did the best job i could on insulating the roof.All the gable ends are at R28,and i will be adding around R 20 to the outside when i finish the gable ends.I plan on adding 3" styro to the outside of the basement as well.
Thomas

 

[rotaxman]

went to Farm Show today and almost bought the Orlanski 200 model 60. same company as the EKO but he couldn't tell what the difference was except thicker steel and tighter welds. cost is $9000 ca since our dollar to so low compared to the Euro right now. My wife is thinking along Heaterman's line of thinking, labour vs. cost but the return on investment is large, even at that price. what would O do with myself with no wood to cut and stove to stoke. I just cannot decide on the manufacturer to buy. I watched the Garn video, but is it more efficient than the Orlanski? Orlan claims 92-93% efficiency with the Orlanski 200, pretty hard to beat if that is true. The Garn flue is cold so it must be near 100% if there's almost no smoke. I will check the Varn and then decide

 

[Mike Fromme]

Simplicity, and good record for parts availability even for their early units that now are over 30 years old.

]

Well that and salesmen usually don't reccomend their competition.