Which soapstone for a small adobe house?

[chile verde]

I'm thinkin this may be my first of many, many posts...

Our adobe home came w a hideously crappy, freestanding fireplace: shaped exactly like Darth Vader's helmet, smelly, inefficient, and quite apt to randomly spitting forth half-burnt logs the second after the last person exits the living room. It had its chance, but realistically its days were numbered before we even made our initial offer on the place. If it made cool breathing noises that'd be one thing, but the fire ejection behavior is simply intolerable...

We're already sold on soapstone, especially with a rambunctious 2-yr old patrolling the environs. Although the home boasts 1300 ft2, due to the tunnel-like, hobbit-height doorways between rooms (22" thick adobe/plaster walls built for circa 1905 folk!) for stove heating considerations only 6~700 ft2 is truly contiguous with the living room...the rest of the house will need fans to benefit from woodheat. One mitigating factor: 9~10' ceilings (airspace should be measured in terms of volume: why the devil must we play about w surface area ratings?!?).

We were initially drawn to Hearthstone's smallest stove, the Tribute, last January:
(broken link removed to http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/wood-stoves/stove-details?product_id=4)

Since then Hearthstone initiated a policy which essentially forbids online vendors from competing w local sellers, and our local store hasn't bent much pricewise ($2100 for stove, 6-8' singlewall 6" pipe, sales tax, and delivery / but no install), and then we noticed the big sale on the Fireview at the Woodstock website:
http://www.woodstove.com/

Factors to consider:
1. The price difference remains modestly in Hearthstone's favor, though not enough to sway me. Fireview + pipe & shipping is $2200~2300.

2. I lean aesthetically towards the Fireview, though I do also like the Hearthstone.

3. As I understand it: the Fireview's cat system allows better control, esp at lower temps, which given the relatively small room dimensions would offset its larger BTU output under optimal performance.

4. The Tribute has a waaaay shorter rear clearance. I'm really wondering if I can get away with placing a Fireview, say, 14" (instead of the w/ shield-rated 17") away from the completely noncombustible adobe & plaster wall? Any thoughts? My biggest concern would be cracked plaster due to heat flux.

5. The Fireview's capacity, thermal mass and burntime are a bonus, and I like its sidedoor better than the Tribute's front access (no handle sticking out into traffic, no swinging glass exposure, closer to woodpile).

As things stand we'll prolly go w the Fireview, but if I'm neglecting something I'd love to hear it. Thanks in advance!

 

[begreen]

Have you looked the the Woodstock Keystone?

 

[chile verde]

Yep: personally I like the Keystone just fine, but milady prefers the look of the Fireview. The Keystone certainly would be a good compromise...smaller footprint, shorter clearance, and cooler fires. Cheaper too. Maybe we should re-discuss our options!

 

[fossil]

Some photos of the proposed location would help a lot, as would a description of the existing stovepipe/chimney. Rick (UNM class of 1977)

 

[chile verde]

Alas, no photos handy at the moment...I'll take a few this weekend and post next Monday. Need to get Vader posted on Craigslist anyway...

Existing pipe is 8", so we'll need to replace that w 6". For whatever reason, the previous owners installed a pair of 90 degree elbows to shift the pipe back about 10"...why they didn't simply use 45's, or angle the pipe, who knows? The resulting draft is pretty lousy.

I was told that the existing 8" pipe chimney (~15' total height) would work fine w a Tribute: am I right to assume it's the same story w the Fireview? Is it OK that only the first 6' are 6" diameter, before stepping up to 8" as it punches through the (flat) roof?

The entire floor is brick, so no worries there.

Rick: greetings from Castetter Hall!

 

[branchburner]

Have you looked the the Woodstock Keystone?

First thing to come to mind for me, too.

 

[leeave96]

Todd has burned the Fireview and now has a two Keystones. I also have the Keystone. If you read Todd's posts, it sounds like he is getting the same/similar heat out of his Keystones as the Fireview when equally loaded.

Either the Fireview or Keystone stoves are GREAT stoves. Some things I especially like about the Keystone is the view of the fire, the ash pan, top or rear flue exit (mine started out as a top exit and than after a chimney reline/mod, became a rear exit), seemly total control of the fire and of course great looks - even on the 4th of July in our living room.

Woodstock is a GREAT company and though I like the looks of the Hearthstone stoves, in come cases, better, I think the cat makes a soapstone a much more functional heater across the low to high burns.

Good luck,
Bill

 

[ddddddden]

Yeah, Todd will give you the scoop on Fireview vs. Keystone. IIRC, he went with the Keystone for the ash pan. . .not much difference in heating. Fireview has ~ 20% more capacity, which would give you a bit more heat on a high burn, or a bit more burn time on a low burn. Fireview is 5% more efficient, according to testing. Who knows if you'd get that with real world use, but I'll take 5% if I can get it. (broken link removed to http://www.woodstove.com/2011-10-tax-credit) Both stoves will work nicely for low output. I would choose the smaller Keystone only if a top-venting stove fit the room better. Like you said, the adobe behind the stove is non-combustible, so the rear clearance doesn't matter. . .dunno 'bout cracking the plaster. . .maybe lean a piece of non-combustible cement board against the wall to protect it. Todd measured the Fireview ~ 1.8 cu ft usable space and Keystone ~ 1.4 cu ft(I think.) Hearthstone's spec for the Tribute ~ 1.2 cu ft, maybe ~ 1.0 cu ft usable. . .doesn't really compare.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Welcome to the forum chile verde.

I agree that either the Fireview or Keystone wold work great. Before we purchased out Fireview we too looked strongly at the Heritage and they also make a beautiful stove. Overall we thought we'd get the best stove for our money and bought the Fireview. Have never been sorry for it either. One thing is like Bill stated in that the stove looks as good on the 4th of July as it does on Christmas Day.

For your location it would seem the Fireview would do you nicely. As for the price, if you buy it now there is a super sale going on and I highly doubt you'll ever see that price again. As for the pipe, you do not have to buy that with the stove and can buy it locally which might save a bit on shipping. As for the difference between the Keystone and Fireview, the ash pan being one of the big differences, the Fireview is the first stove we've ever had without an ash pan. We definitely do not miss that ash pan at all. Now I can see why many folks who have stoves with an ash pan simply never use the ash pan. It is extremely easy to empty ashes without the pan.

In short, if your lady prefers the Fireview, I'd say to get the Fireview. You will come to love it the same as she does. It is one beautiful stove!

 

[Todd]

Good memory Den, 1.8 and 1.4 is what I measured for usable fire box space in the Fireview and Keystone. You could increase the size of the Keystones box to the same size as the Fireview if you took out the ash pan grate and laid 3 fire bricks down but I love the Keystones ash pan, it's one of the main reasons I traded in my Fireview, no more flying ash floating around the house.

As far as heat output goes, they are both pretty similar but the Fireview holds a tad more wood so it seems to burn a little longer. Max BTU's are 10,000 apart but nobody burns at max, more like low-med. If it were me I'd go with the Keystone or Palladian but the Fireview would work just as well, either way you won't go wrong.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Todd, who says nobody burns at max????

 

[Todd]

Todd, who says nobody burns at max????

Nobody I know burns their Fireview at #4. You would have to reload every hour on high to achieve that 55,000 BTU number.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Gottya. I thought you meant temperature max.

 

[ddddddden]

Not to be argumentative, and I haven't come close to trying it, but since the Fireview is supposed to hold 40 lbs of wood, wouldn't 55k BTU/hr run somewhere around 4 hours? (Assuming linear output, which is not how wood releases its energy. . .)

 

[Backwoods Savage]

No arguement at all Den.

Unfortunately, I do not weigh my wood before filling the stove but I can tell you I get a lot longer burn with the wood that I ever have. For example, I use only half the amount of wood we used to use in the same house and we stay a whole lot warmer. Nothing scientific about this; only that I know how much wood we used to burn vs. how much wood we now burn.

In addition to that, all wood is not created equal. What is that 40 pounds of wood? Does it still have lots of moisture in it? If so, that weight is worthless as water does not give you much heat. I can tell you that we make every attempt to not burn wood before it has sit split and stacked in the wind for 2-3 years and many times much longer so there is not a lot of worthless weight in moisture.

 

[ddddddden]

40 lbs, 2 cu ft, 250k BTU ~ whatever term you want to choose to describe a full load in the FV. Obviously, wood density varies by species. I was just quoting a factory spec and trying to explore the question of max output of the FV. . .want to have a strategy ready for when the big one hits.

 

[Todd]

I was being a little sarcastic about loading the stove every hour. I think it would be hard to duplicate that 55,000 BTU number and realistically you wouldn't even need that much heat, if you did it's better to go with a larger stove.

 

[snowleopard]

I love my Heritage, but with the sale going on, I am steering all who ask towards the Woodstock folks. With all the options for stone color and cast colors, she might find a Keystone to her liking. I was also initially bowled over by the Fireviews, but have begun to appreciate even more the simple elegance of the Keystone.

Too many stoves, too few house.

If your CL listing is entitled, "Luke, I AM your father", you may get more hits . . .

 

[jonwright]

I have a Tribute in my house. Was the main stove for @800 ft plus a loft. I had to keep the stove CRANKING hot to stay ahead of the cold temperatures and fill the box to the absolute limit. Even then the fire really only lasted roughly 4 hrs - on the really cold mornings I'd stuff it to the gills with wood and still wake up at 4 AM to refill so the house wouldn't be cold again in the AM.

Now that my home addition is complete it's the stove that will only heat the kitchen/dining area and I'll hopefully only use it occasions during the weekends.

The firebox is just too small for extended overnight burns. As a primary heat source for any house I'd steer towards a bigger stove. In my case the dealer wanted roughly 1/2 of the next size up, so it was still worth doing for my situation. But if I was heating my house 24x7 with it I'd be disappointed.

 

[chile verde]

Thanks all for the informative responses! Fireview is definitely ahead in the running, in part due to your helpful comments.

I've (hopefully) attached a pic of the current Vader-helmet arrangement showing the 8" pipe, complete w awkward pair of 90 degree elbows. The fireplace is a Malm Zircon 34", and according to its manual it's been installed a few inches closer to the wall than the recommended 18". The wall's never gotten overly hot and there are no cracks, something I've periodically checked on those long-burning cold nights. The electrical outlet is prolly the weakpoint, but it's apparently too low to get very warm.

Obviously this thing's never been our primary heatsource (note baseboard housings). Given the cramped airflow of the house and the chimney's corner placement, I never anticipated being able to rely soley upon wood. The idea's to comfortably supplement our main living area. I thought we'd get away with the Tribute, but that 4 hour burn limitation kills it.

As for wording the craigslist ad...perhaps: "Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational freestanding fireplace!"

So, perhaps a 14" (instead of recommended 17") clearance margin is not unreasonable? Or am I being dumb, quibbling over recovering a scant few square feet in a 200ft2 room?

 

[ddddddden]

AFAIK, if your adobe wall is truly non-combustible, you can put the stove as close as you like. FWIW, I'm sure the Tribute is a nice lil' stove, but the Hearthstone that compares to the Fireview in size is the Heritage, and it goes for ~ $3k.

 

[ddddddden]

. . .oh yeah, even though you wouldn't need it for a non-combustible wall, I recommend the rear heat shield for the Fireview. It makes a nice convection chamber that flows a good bit of hot air off of the back of the stove.

 

[begreen]

Do we know that the wall is solid masonry and not adobe over a framed wall?

 

[fossil]

That house, like so many others in the Southwest, may well be a balloon-framed (wooden stud walls) structure just like the typical home nearly everywhere has been for decades now. What makes it an "adobe" is the use of plaster & stucco & lots of rounded corners & edges, and the exterior styling (I grew to really like the style during the time I lived in Albuquerque). You'd be pretty hard pressed to find an actual ("solid") adobe building outside of maybe a reservation or historic display of some sort. It's best to assume (as it's almost certainly the case) that the walls are considered combustible. Rick

 

[chile verde]

Do we know that the wall is solid masonry and not adobe over a framed wall?

Solid...dirt!

The real adobe deal: 4 x 10 x 14" mud bricks, mortared with mud, covered in metal lathe and plastered. The stove is going in the house's 'new' addition (1970's). The other 2/3 of the house has ~22" double-thickness walls (including interior) which I was told were made of terrones: sod blocks cut from the banks of the Rio Grande back in 1905. Supposed to be even stronger than adobe since the still-living plant roots would persist a few weeks, growing into adjacent blocks, fortifying the mortar. Lotta history in this place!