Whither rail?

[begreen]

One of the more eye-opening examples of fossil fuel dominance is present in our lack of passenger rail transportation. In Europe, it is easy to travel from city to city by rail, and even smaller cities are connected. In the US, it is not an option in most cases. This is a comparison of the European passenger rail system vs the US. It should be noted that the major cities in western Europe are connected by high-speed rail.

Even more dramatic is China's commitment to national passenger rail transport, a lot being high-speed. Most of this has been built in the past 20 years. There is no high-speed rail in the US.



Here, the fossil fuel industry is king. The contrast couldn't be more stark or obvious. The fact that it takes much longer to train from Seattle to Vancouver or to Portland than to drive is nuts yet the development of high-speed rail proceeds at the most glacial pace, if at all.

 

[Highbeam]

Here's the problem. From Seattle to portland, the train takes 3.5 hours of actual travel time. I can take the same drive in 3 hours per mapquest. The 3.5 hours is just travel time, getting to the train station and waiting for the train, loading, buying tickets, etc. takes even more time.

Train fare costs 66$ each way coach. It's 174 miles by road and in my car at 30 mpg takes 6 gallons of fuel for a cost of 18$.

The other problem of train travel is I have to get to a train station, pay to park my car, hope not to get stabbed since the stations are notoriously unsafe and murders are common, and then I will have no car with which to travel once in Portland.

In summary, trains cost more, takes longer, dirty, cold while waiting on a platform, risk of death and dismemberment, not private, no transportation at the destination, luggage transport if vacationing. No thanks.

 

[begreen]

It takes even longer to get to Vancouver, about 4.5 hrs, vs the 2 hr drive. That said, the murder and crime rate claim is an extreme exaggeration. Folks commute by Sound Transit to the same station by the thousands, daily. I've done both trips and never felt threatened. Fuel cost is just part of the trip expense for a car. There is the per-mile maintenance cost of that car for brakes, oil, tires, etc. + insurance too, not to mention the environmental costs. FWIW, the ticket for Tacoma to Portland is $47 for coach, used to be $45. Considering one can relax, read, have a meal, and enjoy some fantastic scenery, it's not a bad deal at all.

Getting around is less of an issue, Portland has really good public transport. If there was a good high-speed rail system that got one to Portland in 1.25 hrs. it's a pretty safe bet that connecting transit would be good. High-speed rail is faster than flying, especially when one considers getting to and from the airport and the woes of parking.

All of this is beside the point. The political will to put in an excellent passenger transportation network is blocked. The fossil fuel industry makes sure of that. An example of this is how Koch Industries has fought high-speed passenger rail in several states including FL, VA, OH, WI, &TN. They have spent millions on disinformation campaigns & anti-rail propaganda.

 

[semipro]

I recently rode Denver's commuter train from downtown to the airport. What a great ride.
It was a 1/4 the cost of Lyft/Uber and far more enjoyable with better views.
It took a bit longer than driving but seemed well worth the extra time.

 

[tlc1976]

Most of our train tracks were torn out in the 80s.

I realize with people, there is concern over extra time spent, safety, arrangement of transportation at the destination. But it could be different for non perishable goods.

I wonder if it would help overall emissions if we still had railroads to transport goods on a mass scale to towns, then trucks to deliver locally.

I don’t work in inventory or accounting. But it seems to me that JIT inventory doesn’t make a lot of sense. Pay more in shipping to get parts one at a time. Pay whatever the going rate is for the item. And if there’s a hiccup in the supply chain then you can’t get your product out the door.

For non perishable things you know you’re going to need, why not buy in bulk when you can get a deal, save on shipping, and be able to ship your product on time? As long as you’ve got room to store things, which is usually doable if it’s not oversize parts.

 

[EbS-P]

The land yacht sailed long ago on passenger trains in the US. What we have now is a novelty not any efficient transportation infrastructure. I do think we will see more freight with less long haul trucking because in electric semis will really change the cost structure of trucking. It’s yet the be seen what a real 1Mw charging time for a semi with 100,000 miles or more. And where the chargers will be located.

 

[woodgeek]

Hmmm. I am a fan of rail, certainly for freight. The fact that we do long-haul trucking in the US versus rail is obscene from a climate perspective.

The maps can be misleading bc of difference in scale. Western EU fits in the US east of the Mississippi, and the rail dense part of China (almost) does too. So maybe we could enrail the East US and the West coast, but the Plains and Mountains west? Travel times are too long. So we'll just fly at that point.

I think we will build out a low emission electric powered regional air service before we build out passenger rail.

 

[EbS-P]

Hmmm. I am a fan of rail, certainly for freight. The fact that we do long-haul trucking in the US versus rail is obscene from a climate perspective.

The maps can be misleading bc of difference in scale. Western EU fits in the US east of the Mississippi, and the rail dense part of China (almost) does too. So maybe we could enrail the East US and the West coast, but the Plains and Mountains west? Travel times are too long. So we'll just fly at that point.

I think we will build out a low emission electric powered regional air service before we build out passenger rail.

Because electric rail is such a complicated technology we just can’t engineer a solution too

 

[woodgeek]

Because electric rail is such a complicated technology we just can’t engineer a solution too

Fair. I will say that MANY of the US' problems are related to zoning. Housing, rail, road networks, urban/suburban layout... behind a LOT of it is NIMBY fueled zoning rules. Acela goes slow not for any technical reason except that the tracks it runs on in much of New England are not straight! Oh, and Acela cars are legally required to weigh twice as much as similar class rail in the EU and China.

And my personal opinion for why zoning rules in the US are so weird compared to other countries... historical racism.

 

[begreen]

True that it doesn't make a lot of sense to be running in the cornfields or connecting sagebrush but connecting Chicago to Kansas City, and major cities along the way, does make sense.

High-speed rail lines need to be dedicated tracks, not doubling as freight routes. Acela is an expensive joke. It's not even close to being high-speed.

 

[Ashful]

That said, the murder and crime rate claim is an extreme exaggeration.

In the aggregate sense, maybe. But would you want to walk from west Philly to 30th St. station to catch an evening train? I used to do that several times per week, and nearly all of my colleagues making the same commute were mugged or robbed on that same walk over the course of a few years.

But I will agree with you this is not one of the more dominant factors in keeping rail from becoming more prevalent in this country. It's always economics first, with convenience a close second, as Highbeam already noted. Also, if the maps were appropriately scaled, and you laid Europe over the northeast (eg. Philly to Boston), there is much less difference in actual density of rail systems.

As to high speed surface rail? Oh, our lawyers would have a field day with that. Timmy used to play on the tracks, but he wasn't quick enough! I used to watch the high speed rail buzz past my buddy's apartment in Germany, as well as ride it from city to city in various European countries. It's a great system, but they have a different perspective on personal and corporate liability.

 

[ABMax24]

In Alberta, Edmonton and Calgary are 3hrs by road apart, connected by a 4 lane highway, and sees an average of 35,000 vehicles per day, of which 80% are passenger vehicles.

About 20 years ago a high-speed rail link was suggested to connect the 2 cities. And every few years it gets brought up again, and everytime it never gets passed the drawing board. Citing issues such as land acquisition, cost and lack of return on investment, no hubs at either end to ferry people to their destinations in either city, cheap cost of owning or renting a car and driving.

It seems like a really good idea, but the economics alone don't allow it to work, and with the advent of EVs and rideshare or rental apps, the economics for rail become even worse.

On the contrary we've seen a resurgence in freight rail traffic. At one point there was talk of closing the rail line to our city, and speed limits for trains were around 10mph because the tracks were so poorly maintained. Ironically it was the oil and gas industry that brought freight traffic up, and allowed CN to make much needed repairs to the line. It takes a lot of pipe to build a pipeline, and a lot of sand to frac a well, and rail is the most cost effective means of transporting such materials in bulk.

 

[begreen]

As to high speed surface rail? Oh, our lawyers would have a field day with that. Timmy used to play on the tracks, but he wasn't quick enough! I used to watch the high speed rail buzz past my buddy's apartment in Germany, as well as ride it from city to city in various European countries. It's a great system, but they have a different perspective on personal and corporate liability.

The lawyers turned lobbyists for the petroconglomerates a long time ago. Oil/coal/gas have this country by the short hairs and the budgets to pull them. That is the fundamental reason why. They have created an addiction of "convenience" and cheap fuel based on a very long-term program to create this relationship. Taxpayer dollars have been spent all along to maintain this.

 

[Vg3200p]

I think more rail for freight would be awesome. Would it be more efficient to ship frieght mistly by train then local delivery by truck? Almost certainly. But the thought of having to be crammed in to a train with 50 other people just to go to work makes me sick to my stomach. I would be so unhappy personally if I had to ride a train instead of drive my truck or motorcycle. I'm all for more rail freight but I hope I never have to be on a train or subway again myself

 

[begreen]

We are not talking commuter rail here. High-speed rail is more of a replacement for flying. When I think of an uncomfortable crammed experience I think of modern economy class - cramped and terrible. Have you ridden on a high-speed rail system in Japan, France, etc.? They are much better than flying.

 

[Vg3200p]

We are not talking commuter rail here. High-speed rail is more of a replacement for flying. When I think of an uncomfortable crammed experience I think of modern economy class - cramped and terrible. Have you ridden on a high-speed rail system in Japan, France, etc.? They are much better than flying.

No sir I have not. I also will never fly again if I xan help it. Different strokes for different folks though. I'm not against more rail. As long as I can still drive and they don't try to get rid of individual cars just to have mass tramsut

 

[begreen]

No worries, there are still plenty of cars and beautiful roads in Europe.

 

[Highbeam]

My daughter commutes by rail to university every day. Two trains actually, one diesel on the freight rails and then a light rail electric train. Both are well used and both very dangerous. We also are good friends with a transit policeman, an actual sherrif with a gun. He gave her advice and how to be least likely to get stabbed, assaulted, exposed to drugs, etc. but she still sees it and we see the murders on the news.

She takes the train because the economics work out. University covers the cost as part of tuition.

Luckily she’s a senior and is aware of the risk along with some “protection”. Also the time of day matters a lot for safety.

 

[peakbagger]

There is large portion of Mass served by the MBTA a mix of subways, street trolleys and trains. The state just cant subsize it enough to keep if running. The only part of passenger Amtrak service that makes any money if the Northeast corridor. I think Florida has some private rail passenger that seems to be profitable. Long distance freight rails do in general make money.

The rural area I live in NH used to be interlaced with local rails, there were local mills and industries that needed service and we happen to be between Montreal and the New England coast. The St Laurence river was not a relaible year round shipping route and quite a long haul to southern New England so several major lines were built for that service. The local lines were fed of passenger rails that used the same routes. The local lines are mostly gone but one thing the state has done is kept the right of ways from reverting back to the landowners. They are either abandoned or used for rail trails and ATV routes in the summer and snow machines in the winter. I have the Cross NH Adventure trail nearby, it runs from the VT border to about 10 miles into Maine. It uses mostly old rail routes as a mountain biking rail trail (too rough for road bikes and on occassion ATVs where allowed). If you want to see why I chose to live where I live check out the Photo tour https://www.xnhat.org/photo-tour-of-the-trail.html. I rode the length of it this summer in sections.

 

[Ashful]

We are not talking commuter rail here. High-speed rail is more of a replacement for flying. When I think of an uncomfortable crammed experience I think of modern economy class - cramped and terrible. Have you ridden on a high-speed rail system in Japan, France, etc.? They are much better than flying.

I have, and I agree with you, here. High speed rail, the way it's done in continental Europe (not GB) is very nice, actually nicer than flying. There's really little you can say against it, although I always had the benefit of riding in the better class cars. Like flying, economy class looks pretty miserable. The big difference to flying is that, at least for infrequent travel, the higher-class tickets aren't terribly expensive.

I also used to ride regional rail every day, for many years. I'd say that is the very definition of misery to some, like anything done for 2-3 hours every day, you get used to it. My body seems programmed to fall asleep as soon as the train starts moving, and wake up when they change drivers in Suburban station (Broad St. Philly), after too many years of riding that system as a sleep-deprived student.

The danger I experienced in rail was never any concern of getting stabbed on the train. In more than ten years of ridership, I only ever saw a few passenger situations of any legitimate concern, and nothing ever too serious. Some of the stations were in shady neighborhoods, to where a break-down and transfer could be concerning, but you're usually with a group when that happens. Our issues were accidents between the train and vehicles at crossings, or the train failing to stop at the end of the line, each incident resulting in some pretty serious injuries to passengers, drivers of cars, or in one case, several restaurant patrons.

 

[Highbeam]

Yeah, the stations are the primary location of murders. The cars themselves are more drug use. The daughter had people on the same car smoking crack, smoking weed, and shooting up. Not all at once but she’s seen all of them. Plus crazies smashing things and yelling. The transients ride back and forth just staying on the train to stay warm. There’s almost no authority figures on the train keeping order, they seem to have been “defunded”.

 

[ABMax24]

While I agree there are safety issues with rail transport, all low cost public transit really, it's a symptom of other societal issues more than the train service itself.

Crime and poverty coexist everywhere together on this planet, so when the low income and impoverished ride public transit it stands to reason that crime occurs at a greater rate there.

 

[Ashful]

There’s almost no authority figures on the train keeping order, they seem to have been “defunded”.

Things vary region to region. I last rode SEPTA (South Eastern Penna Transit Authority) right before the pandemic, and at least then, there were still conductors punching tickets on regional rail. Subway was a different story... but that's a subway, and we're talking here about high speed + regional rail.

Although no longer a daily rail commuter, as I was from the early 1990's to early 2000's, I feel like I've seen pretty much everything there is to see on our regional railways. There's very little those conductors will put up with, they're a tough bunch, dealing with people all day every day. I've seen them throw people off a train for much smaller infractions.

But again, I think this is largely irrelevant to why we don't have more high speed or even regional rail. It's economics, NIMBY, and convenience. Crime on a closed system like a railway or subway, if it really were the problem, is pretty easily resolved with sufficient interest and effort.

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

Interesting post ... .

Born and raised in Belgium, moved to the US in the late 90's for a German company active in nuclear stuff and since 2005 I'm importing biomass equipment from Austria and Germany.

Question for to the OP: Did you ever take a train in Europe? Did you ever take a train in China?

I did when i was between 15 and 22 years of age.
I missed a lot of classes and even exams because the beautiful and punctinal train system in Belgium.
Believe me, the German BundesBahn and Swiss and Austrian are not much better of.

I also took once a train from Shangai to Wuhan, this was in 2007 or 2008; Before Covid
It was an experiance, that's the least I can tell you; but it's less then 20 years ago.

There is a reason why the US is the number one country on earth, and it is not because we don't have public rail transportation.

I live very close to Boston.
Take a bus from Cambridge Alewife station to Burlington; you may arrive 2 to 3 hours later if the bus does not break down.
Or try taking an Uber or Lift; after 2 or 3 cancallations and paying $35 to $65 bucks

I agree that fossil industry is king, but we need to tink out of the box; public rail transportation in not something that will help us.

We (in the US that is) are "hardwired" differently.

Just my opinion

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

Captain Kirk said, "Scotty, beam us up"

That's what we need