Whole House Plumbing Shut Off

[McKraut]

I have a 1” PE line coming off the old well into the house through the stone wall. After it comes through the stone wall, a 90* fitting (plastic) connected the PE lines and from there it was buried under the dirt floor and travels to the house plumbing. I cut the PE line about 20” after the 90* fitting and put an adapter at the end to transition to PVC and then to the house plumbing. One night I came home from work at 2AM and there was no water pressure. I went into the basement to find water all over the floor (dirt plus water equals mud) and shelving. The 90* fitting had blown out of the horizontal line coming into the house and had blown water across the basement. THANKFULLY, I had used a pressure switch with a low-pressure cutoff, so the pump shut off. The contents of the two water tanks were pushed out against the stone wall and then flooded the floor. This could have been catastrophic, but we were lucky.

I want to make sure that this doesn’t happen again. If the fitting had only leaked, and not blown out, the pump would have continuously pumped water in the basement, and this would have been catastrophic. I have seen products that shut a valve if a sensor detects water, but my thought is that they would burn the pump up. I want a system that will kill the electrical supply to the pump if a sensor detects water.

Do you have any recommendations for me? The only option that I have found is this https://www.tecinnovators.com/buy-n...water-detection-system-for-2-hp-pumps-or-less

As always, I appreciate any help.

Bob

 

[peakbagger]

The best approach is one of these type valves https://www.supplyhouse.com/Aquagua...pUmPKsvNP3CvFbQGVpVaudGfuCwfL0AsaAoe0EALw_wcB

They are used on water heaters but will work just a well on main line. The other item you should consider is a "pump protector" which is a smart low water cutoff. It detects multiple issues with a pump including a blowout like you had long before the pump is damaged. A shallow well needs a full control box, a deep well with a capacitor box can usually be retrofit with plug in module https://www.franklinwater.com/produ...devices/pumptec-single-phase-pump-protection/

Mine had saved me from a toilet valve failing while I was on vacation. It had been 15 years since I installed it but it did what it needed to do.

 

[McKraut]

Thank you for the information. I did get a chance to look at these and I don't think the WAGS is what I am looking for. The Pumptec looks promising, but I am not sure if this is what I am looking for. The installation looks straightforward, but I don't know how it works. How did the device detect the toilet valve failing?

Bob

 

[peakbagger]

If the pump runs for some extended period of time it shuts the pump off until reset. Its also senses if the pump runs for a long period of time at low horsepower that implies a broken water line.

 

[McKraut]

Do you know if you can adjust the time the pump can run before it shuts off?

Thanks,
Bob

 

[peakbagger]

Not on my unit, but it has never been an issue since I installed the pump 20 years ago. Note if it is something like a soaker hose (or a very small leak) where its low flow for long periods, the pump doesnt go into protect mode as the pump is cycling to fill the expansion tank and then shutting off, then turning back on again. In my case, my deep well has low yield (fill rate) so at some point the pump will run the well dry and the protector will shut down the pump. I havent researched them lately but I think Franklin now has some with adjustable timing. They also now have a soft start/variable speed conversion for deep wells called a Monodrive that is quite interesting to eliminate startup surge and extend pump life as the pump will rarely run at full speed and house pressure will be near constant. That will be on my next well.

 

[McKraut]

OK, thank you for the information. I am still not sure what I am going to do.

 

[gthomas785]

My problem with the flow based protection systems is that generally by the time it detects a problem there's already a lot of damage. If it's a full bore pipe break, a minute of continuous pumping is too long. If you have a pinhole leak, it won't be detected anyway.

 

[McKraut]

Agreed. I don't see anything that will work the way I had envisioned it/hoped for.

 

[gthomas785]

The sensor based approach can work, but the sensors need to be placed very thoughtfully and there's always the chance you need a sensor somewhere you didn't think of.

Seems like your issue here was caused by the fitting on the PE pipe which I assume was a barbed fitting, probably the least dependable of all the plumbing fittings. Did you consider changing it to either a crimp or compression type with insert. This would eliminate the need to worry about it ever again.

 

[sloeffle]

Not sure what your budget is for this project, they have IOT water sensors that could do what you want. I actually have about half a dozen in my house placed in various locations ( sinks mostly ). You could buy a water sensor and then setup an automation that turns the water off to the house when the sensor senses water.

Water Shut-off Valves for Leak Prevention

www.thesmartesthouse.com

Water Leak Sensor - Aeotec

Water Leak Sensor Identify undesired wet spots directly. With the Aeotec Waterleak Sensor you are well prepared for possible leaks. The Waterleak Sensor can detect leaking water on the top and bottom side, enabling early intervention and damage reduction. Leak detection. Push Up notification...

aeotec.com

I would highly recommend to stay away from any random WiFi sensors that are sold on Amazon.

 

[gthomas785]

I would just get wired wet sensors with relay built in. Typically designed for HVAC applications so they may not handle the current of a well pump, but you can wire it to a 24vac transformer and a contactor for the pump. if using multiple sensors just wire them all in series so any sensor can break the circuit. Add a delay on make module to avoid chattering the contactor if someone bumps the sensor.

As far as i know there is no commercial product that will do this out of the box, even though it's a good idea for anyone with a well. However, a plumber or HVAC mechanic with basic controls knowledge could put this together.

 

[sloeffle]

I like to the IOT stuff because you can set it up to send you alerts, and you can check on it remotely. I've gotten alerts before when I've been out of town and I've sent a neighbor over to make sure that nothing catastrophic has occurred.

 

[McKraut]

The sensor based approach can work, but the sensors need to be placed very thoughtfully and there's always the chance you need a sensor somewhere you didn't think of.

Seems like your issue here was caused by the fitting on the PE pipe which I assume was a barbed fitting, probably the least dependable of all the plumbing fittings. Did you consider changing it to either a crimp or compression type with insert. This would eliminate the need to worry about it ever again.

I never thought about replacing the barbed fitting, but it is something I would definitely consider doing. Is this what I am looking for?

 

[gthomas785]

That's the right idea but double check the sizing on your pipe whether it's CTS or IPS. They are slightly different outside diameters. If you had a barbed fitting in there before I bet it's IPS. Anyway those pack joint fittings are available in both CTS and IPS sizes and same with the inserts.

 

[McKraut]

Not sure what your budget is for this project, they have IOT water sensors that could do what you want. I actually have about half a dozen in my house placed in various locations ( sinks mostly ). You could buy a water sensor and then setup an automation that turns the water off to the house when the sensor senses water.

Water Shut-off Valves for Leak Prevention

www.thesmartesthouse.com

Water Leak Sensor - Aeotec

Water Leak Sensor Identify undesired wet spots directly. With the Aeotec Waterleak Sensor you are well prepared for possible leaks. The Waterleak Sensor can detect leaking water on the top and bottom side, enabling early intervention and damage reduction. Leak detection. Push Up notification...

aeotec.com

I would highly recommend to stay away from any random WiFi sensors that are sold on Amazon.

I am not familiar with the technology, but it is interesting. I assume that the sensors you use are all connected through wi-fi and not wired. Are you using a Zooz system with Aeotec water sensors?

Bob

 

[McKraut]

That's the right idea but double check the sizing on your pipe whether it's CTS or IPS. They are slightly different outside diameters. If you had a barbed fitting in there before I bet it's IPS. Anyway those pack joint fittings are available in both CTS and IPS sizes and same with the inserts.

ok, thank you. I will definitely consider these.
Bob

 

[sloeffle]

I am not familiar with the technology, but it is interesting. I assume that the sensors you use are all connected through wi-fi and not wired. Are you using a Zooz system with Aeotec water sensors?

Bob

My setup at home uses Samsung SmartThings along with Aeotec ZWave or ZigBee devices ( similar to a WiFi device ). In the U.S. I believe they spun it off to Aeotec. SmartThings uses ZWave or ZigBee devices that have to be certified or built by Samsung / Aeotec to work with their hub. There are other hub vendors other than Aeotec too. All ZWave devices feature end-end encryption so it's not possible for someone to possibly snoop on the traffic. The Chinese IOT Wi-Fi devices you buy from Amazon or some other sites are known to have backdoors built into them or are poorly secured by the vendor. One of many articles you can find by a Google search.

We found a hidden backdoor in Chinese Internet of Things devices – researchers

VoIP kitmakers probed

www.theregister.com

Once you have your devices setup you can setup automations. I had an automation setup that would turn the heater on for my cattle's water when the temperature got below 32F. When the temperature got above 32F it would shut it off. I currently have an automation to turn some lights on at 4, and shut them off at 11 every day of the week.

 

[gthomas785]

Well I definitely wouldn't want Xi Jinping to know how often my basement gets flooded. Lol

 

[sloeffle]

Well I definitely wouldn't want Xi Jinping to know how often my basement gets flooded. Lol

Think you are missing the overall point. I bet you would care if the Wi-Fi device is listening to your personal conversations without your knowledge. Or the device knows when you leave for work everyday and is then sending that back to someone without your knowledge.

 

[gthomas785]

Think you are missing the overall point. I bet you would care if the Wi-Fi device is listening to your personal conversations without your knowledge. Or the device knows when you leave for work everyday and is then sending that back to someone without your knowledge.

I already carry a tracking device everywhere I go, Google and Amazon have my every move recorded they know what I do on the weekend and what kind of food I eat and who comes to my house, you think a wifi water sensor is going to make a difference? gimme a break

 

[sloeffle]

I already carry a tracking device everywhere I go, Google and Amazon have my every move recorded they know what I do on the weekend and what kind of food I eat and who comes to my house, you think a wifi water sensor is going to make a difference? gimme a break

Good for you. Not me.

To the OP, sorry to railroad your thread. The moral of the story is, just be aware of what you buy online.

 

[McKraut]

No Problem. Message heard.

Thanks for all of the help and advice.

 

[Tonty]

I am not familiar with the technology, but it is interesting. I assume that the sensors you use are all connected through wi-fi and not wired. Are you using a Zooz system with Aeotec water sensors?

Bob

Another technology option is HomeSeer. They make leave detection and water valves. It’s also local based and doesn’t need to be tied to the cloud. I use some of their technology, and I like it better than some other more commercialized versions that I also use. It is very user configurable, and can tie a lot of different manufacturers together. Like I can have my Ambient Weather station “talk” to my Ecobee thermostat. The downside is that it takes some time.
https://homeseer.com/products/

 

[Highbeam]

Most houses in the country will get wet if the water line breaks. It’s just part of life. I would never install PVC inside a home.