Why aren’t the trades valued more? A podcast and discussion.

[EbS-P]

This is a really good discussion addressing the question why the trades aren’t more valued.

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It’s more focused on those in the trades but is still of great value for those of us need to hire those in the trades.

 

[begreen]

It is a shame that both well-meaning schools and parents drive kids so hard into a college path and stigmatize or downplay the value of the trades. I fear we are going to end up with a major shortage of skilled people as electricians, mechanics, plumbers, linesmen, etc.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

The reasons are many. From my generation on, X, we were told we needed to go to college. I did, ended up with 2 bachelor’s. Then ended up opening up a couple associated, but definitely trade based businesses.

To me, it seems like the more people remove themselves from nature, the more they sanitize their lives, the fewer trade like tasks they can do. It seems to go past, “I can do it, I just don’t want to or don’t have time.”

It’s expensive to hire people.

 

[Sawset]

I worked in the HVAC trade for 10yrs. Then aquired a BS in mechanical engineering and spent the next 25 in sheetmetal design and manufacturing. Trade work couldn't hold my attention, and 50% of the job description was smoozing with the guys. The experience was extremely valuable, but I was only ever half qualified.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

See, thats the thing with the trades. People misunderstand the job. The trade is the easy part.

The biggest part of my job is communicating with the customer. Telling the customer what will be done, what was done, and how it will fix their problem and or make their life easier is key. They can hire any company to fix their issue. Undoubtedly, some of the other companies around will even be less expensive. They went with you because of you. What do you do differently than everybody else? Its not the skill. There are plenty of competent trades people out there. If you can't communicate and they don't know how valuable your service was, how can they tell craftsmanship from something that looks great on the exterior but will quickly fall apart? They need something they can talk to their friends about. This can be as simple as setting an appointment time and showing up at that time. The customer needs to remember you, and positively!

I'm not saying the skill isn't important. The work has to be done correctly. The worst thing for a business is having to go back and fix a problem for free. Talk about opportunity cost!

 

[tebenhoh]

I’m in my 50’s now, and was very strongly urged (pushed) towards college by both my peers and our high school curriculum, and by the presumed assumption it was how you get ahead. I wasn’t taught trades were bad, I wasn’t taught (told) trades were good. If I only knew then… I work in various trades now, and it’s the best job I knew nothing about for years!

 

[tebenhoh]

See, thats the thing with the trades. People misunderstand the job. The trade is the easy part.

The biggest part of my job is communicating with the customer. Telling the customer what will be done, what was done, and how it will fix their problem and or make their life easier is key. They can hire any company to fix their issue. Undoubtedly, some of the other companies around will even be less expensive. They went with you because of you. What do you do differently than everybody else? Its not the skill. There are plenty of competent trades people out there. If you can't communicate and they don't know how valuable your service was, how can they tell craftsmanship from something that looks great on the exterior but will quickly fall apart? They need something they can talk to their friends about. This can be as simple as setting an appointment time and showing up at that time. The customer needs to remember you, and positively!

I'm not saying the skill isn't important. The work has to be done correctly. The worst thing for a business is having to go back and fix a problem for free. Talk about opportunity cost!

Exactly. Well said!

 

[Ashful]

I went the higher ed. route, but because my hobbies, interests, and frankly the people with which I have the most in common have always been more "blue collar", most of my friends are the guys who went into the trades. Many of them make more than the majority of college graduates, because the barrier to self-employment or business ownership is much lower in their chosen trades, than in the professions for which many go to college.

So, who was smarter, in the end? The guy who got a BS from a 4-year university, now working for the "man" in a job he dreads, and making a reasonable but not stellar salary, or the independent tradesman who rolled with some ups and downs to start his own small contracting business, and now makes more on his own terms? I personally envy some of my friends working in the trades, who went the route of starting their own small business and growing it.

I do think the tradesman who's just schlepping along for someone else is always going to be the loser in a capitalist system, whether measured in dollars or career satisfaction, but that's not new or unique to this generation. It takes all kinds...

 

[begreen]

Personally, I think we push kids into college too soon. A lot of them are not ready for it and end up with a somewhat useless degree as a result. If they are lucky to have a mentor and they're smart, some might change their major once they discover their passion. Many do not.

I worked on and off about 10 yrs in the trades before finishing up my college degree. Those years were invaluable in helping me develop problem-solving skills, boosting my confidence, and paying the bills. These skills have saved me thousands in plumbing, hvac, and on electrical work and repairs, even as I switched careers.

 

[brenndatomu]

Personally, I think we push kids into college too soon. A lot of them are not ready for it and end up with a somewhat useless degree as a result.

Useless degree and the burden of debt...often for many years!

 

[bholler]

As someone with a degree who worked in a white collar job for a while before switching to cabinet making. Then chimneys. I can say I in no way regret my education I use my degree and the minor I got with it pretty often. But I simply am not cut out to work in an office. It couldn't hold my attention.

Part of that is the types of design jobs I wanted (small contract design firms) all dried up right as I graduated. Which means I had to go into corporate design which I knew I probably wouldn't do well with.

 

[Sawset]

I do think the tradesman who's just schlepping along for someone else is always going to be the loser in a capitalist system, whether measured in dollars or career satisfaction, but that's not new or unique to this generation. It takes all kinds...

That would cover the vast majority of trades people out there. The question is why are there not enough plumbers etc. There are plenty of plumbing contractors. Union halls should be able to tap into the members to fill positions, but they cannot. Local contractors cannot get enough apprentices on track to move up. And 4yrs of college isn't the only alternative either. A quick two year training at the local tech school is enough for many many high paying jobs other than constuction trades. And the positions available are not just office types. For me, I'm back doing cabinetry, remodel work, some new construction for others and here at home, and some design projects for myself. It does take all kinds. But interest in construction trades is not what it was.

 

[bholler]

do think the tradesman who's just schlepping along for someone else is always going to be the loser in a capitalist system, whether measured in dollars or career satisfaction, but that's not new or unique to this generation. It takes all kinds...

Don't forget there are lots of people schlepping along in offices that require degrees making less than many general laborers as well though.

 

[begreen]

I do think the tradesman who's just schlepping along for someone else is always going to be the loser in a capitalist system, whether measured in dollars or career satisfaction, but that's not new or unique to this generation. It takes all kinds...

Back a couple of decades ago, one of the richest people in our community was a plumber.

 

[ABMax24]

I think it really depends on the job market when people enter the workforce. When I finished highschool in 2010 trades were the place to be, most of my friends including myself have trade tickets and have done quite well. At that time $40/hr was standard wage in most trades, unfortunately over the past 12 years that hasn't increased much in a lot of places, and inflation has turned a great wage to a living wage. It's not very often we get a kid out of highschool at work that wants to get into the trades, and when we do the work ethic isn't there to make them a good tradesman.

At one point (and still to an extent) Fort McMurray (the center of the Canadian Oilsands) was the place to be if you wanted to make money in the trades. For example, in about 2007 a welder could make $200k/year working 4 weeks on and 2 weeks off, and if you were good you could work a special deal to have your flights to and from your home city paid for by the company, wherever place that was in the world. Some of these arrangements would let you fly anywhere in the world period, and many took advantage of this work schedule to see the world, paid for by their employers. Of course these days are long gone, but some of these jobs are starting to return where a worker is flown back to their home city in Canada every shift.

My job isn't always the most glamourous, or fulfilling, but it pays well for me having a total of 6 months of post-secondary education, heck it makes the pay of most bachelor degrees look bad. If the money disappears though I'll move on, because its not worth it without the pay. Pay enough and people will come to fill the roles, issue is in todays society of corporate greed that doesn't get to happen, lobbyists twist the governments arm to let immigrants in to fill the jobs instead and the pay remains low.

 

[bholler]

I think it really depends on the job market when people enter the workforce. When I finished highschool in 2010 trades were the place to be, most of my friends including myself have trade tickets and have done quite well. At that time $40/hr was standard wage in most trades, unfortunately over the past 12 years that hasn't increased much in a lot of places, and inflation has turned a great wage to a living wage. It's not very often we get a kid out of highschool at work that wants to get into the trades, and when we do the work ethic isn't there to make them a good tradesman.

At one point (and still to an extent) Fort McMurray (the center of the Canadian Oilsands) was the place to be if you wanted to make money in the trades. For example, in about 2007 a welder could make $200k/year working 4 weeks on and 2 weeks off, and if you were good you could work a special deal to have your flights to and from your home city paid for by the company, wherever place that was in the world. Some of these arrangements would let you fly anywhere in the world period, and many took advantage of this work schedule to see the world, paid for by their employers. Of course these days are long gone, but some of these jobs are starting to return where a worker is flown back to their home city in Canada every shift.

My job isn't always the most glamourous, or fulfilling, but it pays well for me having a total of 6 months of post-secondary education, heck it makes the pay of most bachelor degrees look bad. If the money disappears though I'll move on, because its not worth it without the pay. Pay enough and people will come to fill the roles, issue is in todays society of corporate greed that doesn't get to happen, lobbyists twist the governments arm to let immigrants in to fill the jobs instead and the pay remains low.

$40 an hour was standard wage for most trades in 2010??

 

[alber197]

I'll weigh in here as I'm a self employed plumber..

There's no one entering the trades! None of the plumbing, hvac, or electrical contractors can find any employees (union or non union doesn't matter). In our community plumbers make more than most with a 4 year degree and do really well regardless if they work on their own or for someone.

If you know someone who may not be a good fit for college (or just doesn't want to sit in a classroom for 4 years) encourage them to look into a trade. Chances are someone in their life told them it's not a good career and they just need someone to discuss it with them..

Even if they have a degree, they can still get a trades job if their current route is not working for them. Of the plumbers who work for me 75% have a 4 years degree. Our best plumber has a dual major biology/chemistry degree and wanted to be a dentist...

 

[ABMax24]

$40 an hour was standard wage for most trades in 2010??

In Alberta it certainly was (I'm talking a fully ticketed journeyman). At that time welding rate was $100/hr for someone with their own truck, first year you could have the truck, welder and all tools paid for and still afford to live, everything after that first year was gravy. Some of the guys I went to school with took that path.

 

[bholler]

In Alberta it certainly was (I'm talking a fully ticketed journeyman). At that time welding rate was $100/hr for someone with their own truck, first year you could have the truck, welder and all tools paid for and still afford to live, everything after that first year was gravy. Some of the guys I went to school with took that path.

Ok standard wage for ticketed journeymen is very different from standard wage for most trades.

 

[alber197]

Ok standard wage for ticketed journeymen is very different from standard wage for most trades.

Yes, a license is key. All trades do well but the ones that require a journeyman or masters license do much better

 

[Tonty]

$40 an hour was standard wage for most trades in 2010??

My wife is from north of the 40th, and I also have a sis married up there. Some of my in-laws are self-employed trades-men up there, and I’m always amazed at their wage and the amount of work available there.
Edit: meant 49th. 🤔

 

[ABMax24]

Ok standard wage for ticketed journeymen is very different from standard wage for most trades.

Many of our trades here are "compulsory trades" meaning you must be a Journeyman or are an apprentice working towards being one.

And even if they are not, must companies want their employees or sub-contractors to be ticketed.

 

[Ashful]

Personally, I think we push kids into college too soon. A lot of them are not ready for it and end up with a somewhat useless degree as a result.

When I read this, I heard it as "too young", and started typing up a scathing rebuttal.

But then I saw you said "too soon", which can be a different thing, altogether. I don't believe age is the problem, if anything today's society let's young adults continue acting as "kids" longer than at any time in modern history, perhaps to their detriment. One might argue it's the what leads to 25-year olds living in mom's basement, waiting to find themselves, or for real life to start.

The trouble is choosing a career, whether profession or trade, before you have any real work experience. And only one small part of that is really about getting experience in your anticipated trade or career, an arguably larger part of it is the whole right of passage of learning to be part of a project, and interacting with adults at all levels of an organization, which can tell one more about what they might want to do than any course or schooling.

So, if by "too soon", you meant another year or three of playing high school teenager, I'd say it's nothing but a waste of time and expense. But if incorporated into some cooperative education involving actual employment that helps one start to form an idea of what they might want to do in life, I'd think one could make a pretty good argument for that.

Don't forget there are lots of people schlepping along in offices that require degrees making less than many general laborers as well though.

Definitely. Didn't mean to imply otherwise. But statistically, if you're comparing employee to employee (and not employee to independent or owner), those in offices making less than general laborers aren't the college educated members of the office staff which started this discussion.

Back a couple of decades ago, one of the richest people in our community was a plumber.

I'd believe that. But if you tell me he got rich by being a plumber rather than a business owner or any other means, I'm going to have some follow-up questions. My great grandfather and grandfather were both plumbers, and both did pretty well in life, but not by being employee plumbers.

 

[alber197]

I'd believe that. But if you tell me he got rich by being a plumber rather than a business owner or any other means, I'm going to have some follow-up questions. My great grandfather and grandfather were both plumbers, and both did pretty well in life, but not by being employee plumbers.

I'd have to disagree with you..

In our area license plumbers make anywhere from 45-60/hour plus bonues depending in their endorsements and certifications.

They work 40 hours weeks and receive overtime for anything over that. They have no student loan debt and don't work endless hours at the office chained to some desk or travel on a plane every week. Most work for small family owned companies that won't lay them off the minute things get tough like every major corporation.

I consider that doing pretty well in life.

 

[Ashful]

One thing I notice when I see numbers thrown around is that so many things vary widely by locale. ABMax sees big numbers because he's in Alberta, and not enough folks will travel up there to fill the huge demand, without sufficient compensation. Likewise, abler197 is seeing even employee plumbers making more than most with a 4 year degree, but he may live in an area where there's just not a lot of high-paying tech jobs for those with 4-year degrees. This is also how it was for part of my family growing up in the dying steel towns of western PA, but such an apparent inversion may represent a small fraction of our population, perhaps smaller than the opposite extreme of Silicon Valley.

Location is a big factor that can't be ignored when giving specific numbers and comparisons.