Why aren't "smart stoves" more popular?

[iluvjazznjava]

I just finished reading about the "smart stove" controller over at: http://inveninc.com/

I think it's a great concept, and it makes me wonder why some of the major stove manufacturers haven't jumped on board with it and created stoves with something like this built in that can self-monitor and self-regulate. Is it just cost? Lack of demand? Stove makers slow to adopt to modern technology?

I know wood burning is in many ways a very ancient and traditional art, but I can see times when I would love for it to be more automated. Can you think of any other modern heating appliance where you have to monitor it and manually adjust it frequently? I have a natural gas furnace with a high tech thermostat that I can control directly from my iphone. I need to monitor my furnace rather infrequently, so it's cool but not really necessary. My woodstove on the other hand burns differently depending on a number of factors including outside temp, the prevailing wind direction and most importantly the quality of the wood I feed it. I love my wood heat, but there are times I would love to just load the stove and forget it - let the technology handly all the fussing with dampers and fan speed.

Maybe modern technology has spoiled me too much ... what say you?

 

[BrotherBart]

They probably don't want to invest what it would take to make a stove controlled with the Smart Stove controller make it through the emissions testing.

Not such a task with a cat stove but a nightmare with a non-cat.

 

[Tenn Dave]

I just finished reading about the "smart stove" controller over at: http://inveninc.com/

I think it's a great concept, and it makes me wonder why some of the major stove manufacturers haven't jumped on board with it and created stoves with something like this built in that can self-monitor and self-regulate. Is it just cost? Lack of demand? Stove makers slow to adopt to modern technology?

I know wood burning is in many ways a very ancient and traditional art, but I can see times when I would love for it to be more automated. Can you think of any other modern heating appliance where you have to monitor it and manually adjust it frequently? I have a natural gas furnace with a high tech thermostat that I can control directly from my iphone. I need to monitor my furnace rather infrequently, so it's cool but not really necessary. My woodstove on the other hand burns differently depending on a number of factors including outside temp, the prevailing wind direction and most importantly the quality of the wood I feed it. I love my wood heat, but there are times I would love to just load the stove and forget it - let the technology handly all the fussing with dampers and fan speed.

Maybe modern technology has spoiled me too much ... what say you?

To be honest, the only time I adjust my stove is during the first half hour after startup or reload. After that, it burns by itself for about 11.5 hours until I reload it again. Not sure what more automation would buy me, but I have an open mind about it if it did not drive the cost way up.

 

[iluvjazznjava]

They probably don't want to invest what it would take to make a stove controlled with the Smart Stove controller make it through the emissions testing.

Not such a task with a cat stove but a nightmare with a non-cat.

Interesting - is this based on some actual attempts at trying to get a smart stove to pass emissions tests? I have no experience with this whatsoever, but it seems to me that the automation when set up properly could be used to get the stove operating most efficiently and actually help with passing these tests?

 

[BrotherBart]

None that I have heard of. With a cat stove you just have to control primary air. With a non-cat primary and secondary air are in play. You can bet that if it wasn't a major challenge somebody would have done it. Or been all over Dan's device.

In fact if not such a task all of the bimetallic thermostats wouldn't have disappeared when the 1988 emissions regs came into play.

 

[iluvjazznjava]

To be honest, the only time I adjust my stove is during the first half hour after startup or reload. After that, it burns by itself for about 11.5 hours until I reload it again. Not sure what more automation would buy me, but I have an open mind about it if it did not drive the cost way up.

There are a few things I can think of that automation could add:

1. Thermostatic control - just like a furnace or any other heating appliance
2. Safety/peace of mind - built in safeguards to keep the stove from overheating, possibility of automatically shutting off the air in the event of a chimney fire ... those sorts of things.
3. Efficiency - even though most of us would probably say we know how to operate our stove efficiently ... do we really?

I don't think I would advocate for a stove to ever be totally automated - you would want the manual override at least, but I can see how it would be nice to have the option.

Safety could be a big one for me - my wife accidently loaded our stove full with the air wide open and then went up town shopping for a few hours. She is new to wood burning, so it slipped her mind. When I arrived home, there was a burning smell in the house (kind of like when you break in a stove, except the stove was already broken in) and the stove top thermometer was right up the max (900F)! My stove pipe discolored, but other than that there was no harm done that time. It made me realize though that you have to keep an eye on these things. We are all human after all, and it doesn't hurt to have some safety features built in for those times when we forget. They build more and more safety features into cars all the time - most of us drive safe 99% of the time, but there is always that one time when something happens and you are glad you have that seat belt or air bag, etc.

 

[Tenn Dave]

There are a few things I can think of that automation could add:

1. Thermostatic control - just like a furnace or any other heating appliance
2. Safety/peace of mind - built in safeguards to keep the stove from overheating, possibility of automatically shutting off the air in the event of a chimney fire ... those sorts of things.
3. Efficiency - even though most of us would probably say we know how to operate our stove efficiently ... do we really?

I don't think I would advocate for a stove to ever be totally automated - you would want the manual override at least, but I can see how it would be nice to have the option.

Safety could be a big one for me - my wife accidently loaded our stove full with the air wide open and then went up town shopping for a few hours. She is new to wood burning, so it slipped her mind. When I arrived home, there was a burning smell in the house (kind of like when you break in a stove, except the stove was already broken in) and the stove top thermometer was right up the max (900F)! My stove pipe discolored, but other than that there was no harm done that time. It made me realize though that you have to keep an eye on these things. We are all human after all, and it doesn't hurt to have some safety features built in for those times when we forget. They build more and more safety features into cars all the time - most of us drive safe 99% of the time, but there is always that one time when something happens and you are glad you have that seat belt or air bag, etc.

I do like the idea of an automatic shutdown in case of a chimney fire or an over heating stove. Like I said, I have an open mind on this subject and always welcome safer products.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

What would make this better than a pellet stove? I think most are drawn to a wood stove's simplicity. This gets away from that.

 

[begreen]

There is automation available for some stoves like the Hwam and the Nestor Martin (Efel) but it is pricey. It's better than a pellet stove because it doesn't need a combustion blower. Much quieter.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

T When I arrived home, there was a burning smell in the house (kind of like when you break in a stove, except the stove was already broken in) and the stove top thermometer was right up the max (900F)! My stove pipe discolored, but other than that there was no harm done that time. It made me realize though that you have to keep an eye on these things. We are all human after all, and it doesn't hurt to have some safety features built in for those times when we forget. They build more and more safety features into cars all the time - most of us drive safe 99% of the time, but there is always that one time when something happens and you are glad you have that seat belt or air bag, etc.

This type of runaway stove scenario is very common and the reality is modern stoves (and flues) are designed (over built) to take that sort of abuse without failing. They may change color and warp, and make all kinds of weird noises, but if you observe the proper clearances to combustibles your house and family should remain safe, in fact this over built design is the safety feature or "seat belt" that manufacturers have already built into wood stoves.
Having said that I believe there are a few stoves out there already that have automated draft control and for the right price I would certainly like to have the feature in my stove, but getting it at the right price is the key. The stove in my house works great and was less then half the price of similar sized CAT stoves or Hearthstone stoves, and yet they want $300 for the pitiful blower on that stove, I can just imagine how much they would charge for some sort automated electronic devices to regulate the draft. It would probably cost more then the stove itself.

 

[bholler]

Yeah it could be done but it is going to drive the price up quite a bit. And like bart said it works much better on a cat stove than the other types. I am sure it could be done on other stoves but at what cost?

 

[begreen]

Runaway stoves are not all that common, otherwise I and most others wouldn't be burning in them. A lot of overfiring is due to user inexperience and error. We hear about them here because folks are learning. That said it is true that installations with too strong draft may need a closer eye. Hopefully a good dealer will test with a manometer to anticipate issues ahead of time.

 

[begreen]

This is Hwam's system for controlling their non-cat stoves. I've seen this working and it is quite effective. It also tests as being quite efficient.

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[Lumber-Jack]

Runaway stoves are not all that common, otherwise I and most others wouldn't be burning in them. A lot of overfiring is due to user inexperience and error. We hear about them here because folks are learning. That said it is true that installations with too strong draft may need a closer eye. Hopefully a good dealer will test with a manometer to anticipate issues ahead of time.

I agree that it is due to error or neglect, and some inexperience, but the fact is we are all guilty, at one time or another, of leaving the draft wide open for too long and letting the stove get away on us. I've got four people in my household, and we all run the stove,,,, a quick poll here shows that 100% here are guilty. But perhaps we are a particularly negligent bunch.

Lets test it out in here forum.

Anybody who has been wood heating for more then a year and hasn't ever let their stove get away on them a time or two, please speak up!

You first Begreen

 

[begreen]

Yes, we are all guilty of this, but it has nothing to do with modern stoves. I have done it with my old Jotul 602 as well. You could do it with a 1902 parlor stove too.

 

[rdust]

Personally I'm not looking for automation, if I wanted that I'd turn on my furnace or buy a pellet stove.

Anybody who has been wood heating for more then a year and hasn't ever let their stove get away on them a time or two, please speak up!

You first Begreen

My first stove was a Lopi Endeavor it wanted to run away all the time. My BK has never even made me worry in the 4 seasons I've burned it, loads are predictable and repeatable.

 

[begreen]

Predictable and repeatable is how I would describe our loads in the T6 as well. It's gotten hot, but has never "runaway". Even when I am late in turning it down, it settles down quickly enough with the air control closed.

 

[simple.serf]

I work on modern ovens and food equipment all day. I want stuff at home that works, and is affordable. Modern computer controlled equipment does not age gracefully. 7 to 10 years is the limit, based on what I see each day. So long as I dont crack the frame, I can make my stove work, no matter what. To me, that is more valuable than any fancy "smart control ". This logic is why my chainsaw still has a carburetor, and why my tractor still has points in the distributor.

 

[begreen]

True dat. There's something to be said for KISS.

 

[turbojoe]

They probably don't want to invest what it would take to make a stove controlled with the Smart Stove controller make it through the emissions testing.

Not such a task with a cat stove but a nightmare with a non-cat.

Correct me if i'm wrong, the way i understand the EPA test is. No draft adjustments can be made during the test. and Dan's controller is designed for a non-Cat.

 

[turbojoe]

I just finished reading about the "smart stove" controller over at: http://inveninc.com/

I think it's a great concept, and it makes me wonder why some of the major stove manufacturers haven't jumped on board with it and created stoves with something like this built in that can self-monitor and self-regulate. Is it just cost? Lack of demand? Stove makers slow to adopt to modern technology?

I know wood burning is in many ways a very ancient and traditional art, but I can see times when I would love for it to be more automated. Can you think of any other modern heating appliance where you have to monitor it and manually adjust it frequently? I have a natural gas furnace with a high tech thermostat that I can control directly from my iphone. I need to monitor my furnace rather infrequently, so it's cool but not really necessary. My woodstove on the other hand burns differently depending on a number of factors including outside temp, the prevailing wind direction and most importantly the quality of the wood I feed it. I love my wood heat, but there are times I would love to just load the stove and forget it - let the technology handly all the fussing with dampers and fan speed.

Maybe modern technology has spoiled me too much ... what say you?

Talk about not popular, try putting a Smart Controller on the holy grail of stoves, a BK Cat stove, and see how popular you are...lol
Your thread has almost as many replies in one day than my Smart Stove thread has had in a week

 

[BrotherBart]

Dan's controller is designed for non-cats to manage the stove temp. Not tested to achieve cleanest burn as far as I know. There are several draft adjustments in EPA Method 28 testing.

I have said it many times, the EPA does not care if the stove burns your house down. Just that the chimney isn't smoking when it does it. The rest is UL's job.

 

[BrotherBart]

Talk about not popular, try putting a Smart Controller on the holy grail of stoves, a BK Cat stove, and see how popular you are...lol

I know. I went and popped a leaf bag full of popcorn when I saw the first post.

 

[turbojoe]

Dan's controller is designed for non-cats to manage the stove temp. Not tested to achieve cleanest burn as far as I know. There are several draft adjustments in EPA Method 28 testing.

I have said it many times, the EPA does not care if the stove burns your house down. Just that the chimney isn't smoking when it does it. The rest is UL's job.

From the conversations i have had with Dan, you are correct Bart. Thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding of the EPA test. Dan dumped alot of info on my old brain about the EPA test.
BK Chris shared some area's of concern about the EPA test also.

 

[BrotherBart]

Here is the test method. EPA Method 28


(broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/ttn/emc/methods/method28.html)