Why electric cars are not green machines?

[StoveInNH]

Interesting to see an opposing take on EVs.

The environmental benefit of EVs may never be felt

Electric cars need to be used for tens of thousands of miles before they offset the higher releases, with VW's e-Golf becoming more environmentally friendly after 77,000 miles, according to new figures.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[SpaceBus]

This seems very misleading. The article totally ignores the second hand market.

 

[StoveInNH]

This seems very misleading. The article totally ignores the second hand market.

I noticed that, too, however that may not pan out to be the savior.

If the lifespan of the battery is such that when the EV starts to become beneficial, you need to replace the battery, then the issue of the car not being environmentally-friendly resets.

Speculation on my part.

 

[woodgeek]

Interesting to see an opposing take on EVs.

The environmental benefit of EVs may never be felt

Electric cars need to be used for tens of thousands of miles before they offset the higher releases, with VW's e-Golf becoming more environmentally friendly after 77,000 miles, according to new figures.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Sorry, but I didn't see any sources for these numbers and claims.

Current EVs running on the current grid have about 60% lower emissions than same sized ICE cars over their lifetime. Not a huge savings, and not 100%. EVs running on a future, greener grid, would get more like 70-80% lower lifetime emissions.

So the number get depends on what grid you are assuming, which EV, and how long you think the EV will last. So its not easy for skeptics to cook the numbers.

But in the end, passenger cars are not a huge part of the problem. Power production is significantly larger, and also getting greener.

And emissions associated with meat and dairy are about the same (on a global basis) as all passenger cars and trucks. And unlike cars, the meat and dairy emissions are still climbing.

 

[StoveInNH]

Sorry, but I didn't see any sources for these numbers and claims.

Current EVs running on the current grid have about 60% lower emissions than same sized ICE cars over their lifetime. Not a huge savings, and not 100%. EVs running on a future, greener grid, would get more like 70-80% lower lifetime emissions.

So the number get depends on what grid you are assuming, which EV, and how long you think the EV will last. So its not easy for skeptics to cook the numbers.

But in the end, passenger cars are not a huge part of the problem. Power production is significantly larger, and also getting greener.

And emissions associated with meat and dairy are about the same (on a global basis) as all passenger cars and trucks. And unlike cars, the meat and dairy emissions are still climbing.

The article focuses on much more than the electricity required to drive. Give it another read.

Copied highlights:

It needs a lot of electricity: Both during its manufacture and when it is on the road, an electric car requires a significant amount of electricity. They are much heavier than their petrol equivalents due to the enormous battery they have, with the extra weight meaning they use more power.

Making it pollutes the environment: The impact on the environment of mining the minerals needed by electric cars could negate the green benefits of owning one, some critics believe.

Toxic tyre particles: Experts warned last month that electric cars release more toxic tyre particles into the air than their petrol equivalents.

The impact of road repairs: The rise of heavier electric vehicles could lead to more potholes on residential roads, the Asphalt Industry Alliance warned last month.

Battery recycling: Most EVs use lithium-ion batteries, and the UK has scant industrial capacity for lithium-ion battery reprocessing.

 

[StoveInNH]

The article ends on a high note:

"Mike Hawes, chief executive of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, said: 'EV uptake continues to grow, both in the new and used markets, with ever more drivers switching on to the benefits of zero-emission motoring.

'While EVs are more energy intensive to produce, manufacturers are continually investing in ways to make production more efficient, including expanding their own renewable energy sources – and as national electricity grids decarbonise, so will production and lifecycle emissions for EVs.'"

 

[blades]

What's left of my life time this = ford/dodge/chevy discusions.

 

[gthomas785]

The article is definitely misleading. Lifetime emissions includes both the driving emissions and the manufacturing emissions and I would assume prospective EV buyers who care about their footprint would take this into consideration. Besides- a 77k mile carbon payback is not the end of the world. I routinely run my cars to 200-300k so as long as they do not have any major durability issues (which I haven't heard except the occasional anecdotal lemon EVs - and Tesla lol) then they will all end up with a smaller footprint than ICE cars in the end. Given the level of EV sales now, there should be a sizeable second hand market in a few years and people will buy them.
If the majority of EVs really can't make it to 77k miles without falling apart, then well... that would be a huge problem.

 

[StoveInNH]

The article is definitely misleading. Lifetime emissions includes both the driving emissions and the manufacturing emissions and I would assume prospective EV buyers who care about their footprint would take this into consideration. Besides- a 77k mile carbon payback is not the end of the world. I routinely run my cars to 200-300k so as long as they do not have any major durability issues (which I haven't heard except the occasional anecdotal lemon EVs - and Tesla lol) then they will all end up with a smaller footprint than ICE cars in the end. Given the level of EV sales now, there should be a sizeable second hand market in a few years and people will buy them.
If the majority of EVs really can't make it to 77k miles without falling apart, then well... that would be a huge problem.

At 77k most will require new batteries. Which equals more population . . .

The article doesn't seem misleading to me. Like all news today, it's the author's opinion based on their understanding of the facts. And those facts are sometimes presented by biased researchers.

 

[StoveInNH]

What's left of my life time this = ford/dodge/chevy discusions.

Ford.

Do we need to go on?!

 

[bholler]

At 77k most will require new batteries. Which equals more population . . .

The article doesn't seem misleading to me. Like all news today, it's the author's opinion based on their understanding of the facts. And those facts are sometimes presented by biased researchers.

Where did you get the 77k number for replacement?

 

[StoveInNH]

Where did you get the 77k number for replacement?

The post I quoted in my post.

 

[StoveInNH]

Where did you get the 77k number for replacement?

Oh, where did I make the connection between 77k and new batteries? Just being reasonable based on consumer demand for range. If range new is 300 miles, consumers will consider a battery spent at 200 miles. My opinion . . .

 

[bholler]

Oh, where did I make the connection between 77k and new batteries? Just being reasonable based on consumer demand for range. If range new is 300 miles, consumers will consider a battery spent at 200 miles. My opinion . . .

Ok but I am friends with 3 different people who have teslas over 100k on the original batteries. Yes some fail. But most dont

 

[SpaceBus]

I think there are a lot of six year old EVs still on the road.

 

[StoveInNH]

Ok but I am friends with 3 different people who have teslas over 100k on the original batteries. Yes some fail. But most dont

"Fail" is relative. See my previous post. And you might know outliers.

 

[EbS-P]

Manufacturing footprint is well known. And an unchanging fact for the life of the car. The carbon footprint of the grid used to charge the car is dependent on location, time of day, and will change over the life of vehicle. I charge at night and am 20 miles from a nuclear power plant. While I can’t look off the carbon footprint of my electricity I can safely assume it is lower than average.

My point the assumptions that go into the calculation of the crossover point if ICE vs EV need to be disclosed and some confidence in the calculation should be presented. Grid power composition and how it will change in the next 5-6 years should be figured into those calculations.

It’s not a static number. The industry is changing more rapidly than almost any in history.

love it or hate it, fight the transition, embrace it or just ignore it…. EVs are here and the incentives are massive. ICEs won’t be able to compete on cost. They will have an edge on functionality for specific uses. But you will pay more for those than ever before and many like myself are trying to figure out what makes sense for my next vehicle.

 

[woodgeek]

The article focuses on much more than the electricity required to drive. Give it another read.

Copied highlights:

It needs a lot of electricity: Both during its manufacture and when it is on the road, an electric car requires a significant amount of electricity. They are much heavier than their petrol equivalents due to the enormous battery they have, with the extra weight meaning they use more power.

Making it pollutes the environment: The impact on the environment of mining the minerals needed by electric cars could negate the green benefits of owning one, some critics believe.

Toxic tyre particles: Experts warned last month that electric cars release more toxic tyre particles into the air than their petrol equivalents.

The impact of road repairs: The rise of heavier electric vehicles could lead to more potholes on residential roads, the Asphalt Industry Alliance warned last month.

Battery recycling: Most EVs use lithium-ion batteries, and the UK has scant industrial capacity for lithium-ion battery reprocessing.

I know how much electricity my EV needs, bc I measure it. It is way less than the energy in gasoline to propel the same car the same distance.

I also know how much CO2 my (50% nuke, 50% gas) grid produces per kWh.

My CO2/mile in use is not even close to an ICE car, even a Prius.

As for most EVs needing a new battery by 77k miles, this is contra all EVs for sale in the US coming with a battery warranty longer than that!

Tire particles... no one ever cared about that until its time to drive EVs. LOL.

 

[StoveInNH]

I know how much electricity my EV needs, bc I measure it. It is way less than the energy in gasoline to propel the same car the same distance.

I also know how much CO2 my (50% nuke, 50% gas) grid produces per kWh.

My CO2/mile in use is not even close to an ICE car, even a Prius.

As for most EVs needing a new battery by 77k miles, this is contra all EVs for sale in the US coming with a battery warranty longer than that!

Tire particles... no one ever cared about that until its time to drive EVs. LOL.

An opposing viewpoint is healthy, regardless of your take.

I enjoyed the article and believe it to contain some very valid points.

Echo chambers are no good.

 

[woodgeek]

An opposing viewpoint is healthy, regardless of your take.

I enjoyed the article and believe it to contain some very valid points.

Echo chambers are no good.

In the abstract, yes. But the problem here is that CO2 emissions of EVs are a simple math problem, with inputs that are well known. They do have lower lifetime emissions over their warrantied lifetime.

If we all agree that 2+2=4 is that an 'echo chamber'?

Versus a source that reports very different numbers without stating where they came from... and the idea that none of 10 million EVs on the road will last out their warranties?

 

[StoveInNH]

In the abstract, yes. But the problem here is that CO2 emissions of EVs are a simple math problem, with inputs that are well known. They do have lower lifetime emissions over their warrantied lifetime.

If we all agree that 2+2=4 is that an 'echo chamber'?

Versus a source that reports very different numbers without stating where they came from... and the idea that none of 10 million EVs on the road will last out their warranties?

The article is about much more than CO2 emissions.

Read it with an open mind. There is something to learn there.

And yes, you're in an echo chamber. You can't compare math to the biased opinion of a group of people.

 

[SpaceBus]

I don't think that knowing the CO2 emissions of energy used to charge an EV or the emissions related to building it are an echo chamber. The original article plays very fast and loose with some misrepresented cherry-picked statistical data, which is almost a textbook definition of an echo chamber.

Something about stones and glass houses...

 

[StoveInNH]

It is. When you concentrate on one minute detail from a larger article, you create an echo chamber.

 

[begreen]

Unaccounted for are the massive emissions that it takes to drill for oil, transport it to refineries, refine gasoline, then get it to the pump. This number is often absent from comparisons.

 

[bholler]

Unaccounted for are the massive emissions that it takes to drill for oil, transport it to refineries, refine gasoline, then get it to the pump. This number is often absent from comparisons.

And all the emission's that go into manufacturing the ice vehicle as well.