Why electric cars?
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Whitenuckler
Minister of Fire
Batteries and power electronics have really come a long way. Plus all the investment. I hope someday to have a least a hybrid.
I have never owned anything but gas. I thought at one time I wanted a diesel.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
As the owner of a new diesel, you really don’t. Now there are some use cases where they sense. As the owner of an EV they are really practical most of the time. And even for drives up to 1.5 time the stated range in a single day I’m happy with the EV.
Oil will be cheap (adjusted for inflation) for awhile longer. At some point the supply will shrink faster than demand. I expect sub $100 a barrel oil for the next 2-3 years then I have no idea.
Dieselhead
Minister of Fire
Why electric cars? Good question. With most everyone complaining about higher than normal electric rates why add another thing to plug into the grid? Of course unless you have solar but then you are just pre-paying (robbing Peter to pay Paul) for your electric use. There’s no win-win especially when it comes to the environment, everyone’s had that conversation about making the ev’s, charging them vs ol dependable fossil fuels.
But using fossil fuels to generate electricity is a far more efficient use of that fuel. And with expanding use of alternative sources for electric generation there will be less and less reliance on fossil fuels for electricity production. Why wait to develop alternatives?
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
This has been settled. EV “pollution” is better than ice after a couple years. I’ll make up a number and say 50k miles.
Solar and EVs is a great combination. Size a PV system to you annual needs and you will be fine. You should have a woodstove for winter.
Come up with some better reasons.
I see no reason in a two or more vehicle household that more than half your vehicles should not be BEVs.
Dieselhead
Minister of Fire
Between work and play I personally know and interact with hundreds of constituents. These are people I see at least monthly. Out of everyone I know 1 person owns a Tesla. Some do have hybrids but not straight electric. It’s not catching on around my age group or even in my area. I live on a busy road and it catches my attention when an electric car goes by because it’s such an infrequent event.
Dieselhead
Minister of Fire
PS I do have a 24k solar powered mini split in my house before ya go coming after me with pitchforks and torches, the vehicle thing just isn’t that popular of a choice.
Whitenuckler
Minister of Fire
Well, my wishes and desires never came to pass. I ended up driving a Jeep with the 3.6 gas. For me being retired and living in town, it is perfect. Now, I can see with solar on your house or in your yard, with utility tie or batteries ect it would be good around the area. Hybrid
would make more sense for me if I wanted 10000 lb towing
and drives through the Grand CanyonMy sister lives in CT, and electric cars are rare near her too. Like you, she has one friend with a BEV, that got a Mustang Mach E, and she says they are really frustrated with the 'really low range'. When I drive my electric car up to visit her, she worries that I won't make it there, or make it home.
In my area, suburban Philly, it seems that 10-15% of cars on the road are EVs. I just bought my fourth BEV (my first was in 2014). Its a Volvo with all wheel drive, goes 0-60 in 4.4 seconds and cost me $28k. My GF has a BEV too. My neighbor has had a Tesla for several years, and another BEV before that. In my friend group there are about 6 BEVs, and I don't have that many friends.
EV adoption is very patchy.
I just drove my new Volvo EV from Philly to mid New Hampshire (370 miles each way). I drove up 91 and the Connecticut River. Before I crossed over from VT into NH, there were farm stands selling fresh berries, and there were EVs all over. I crossed the river, and there was an ammo store and nary an EV in sight. I drove in NH for another hour without seeing another EV. It was striking.
Talking to my sister, she tries to explain that no one wants an EV because it gets really cold in the winter in CT, and EVs are really bad in winter. I think that is part of it. Ofc, in MA and VT it gets a bit colder, and there are EVs everywhere. My climate is warmer than Hartford, roughly 2°F on average.
I think the 'patchy' EV adoption is largely a factor of politics, and where people get their news and information.
Surprisingly I see quite a few in my very rural very conservative area of central pa.
It's just the opposite out here. EVs have become pretty common. I would guess maybe one in 5 or 7? Back east, right across the border from CT, my sister has one, loves it.
Remember that gasoline has large 'embodied' energy to convert it from crude and move it around. North America may remain a fossil fuel backwater for awhile yet, but the world is going another way.
It has been my observation for some time that many people (perhaps 25-40% of all drivers) consider a half a tank of gas "empty" and will feel that they must fill up. Why this is, I have no idea. I might take some heat for this next statement, but I think that skews strongly along gender lines, with women being much more likely than men to never let their fuel tank drop below half. With women, it might be as much as 60-70% consider "half" to be "empty". Men maybe only 10% - maybe not even that much. Note: I am not judging why this is, and the risks for a woman who runs out of gas are a lot higher than for a man, and when thought of in this way the "half=empty" thought process is not as irrational as it seems on the surface.
An EV with a 250 mile range really only has a 125 mile range to the "half=empty" people. If you follow the advice to only charge to 80%, then 250 miles becomes 200 miles, which becomes 100 miles to half empty. In the winter this is 70-80 miles. Maybe less when you turn on the heat and for the first few minutes the range-o-meter (I have this on my car) drops the estimated driving range from 160 miles (80% charged, but cold battery so lower range) to 120 miles, which really equals 60 miles for those "half = empty" people. Are you starting to get the math?
Does that sound dumb? Yeah, to me it does. But it is how many people think about this. By the way, if you are in the car with an anxious "half=empty" person for any period of time you quickly realize how painful it is to drive anywhere with a car that has a perceived (to them) range of 60-100 miles).
If you are married to such a "half = empty" person (as I was), then when it comes time to buy a new car you have to deal with all of their fears and insecurities about driving range and fill ups and what not. Most of these fears and insecurities will go unstated because they seem irrational to others and people are embarrassed to state them (or worse, have them challenged or have to rationalize them). If it is just you and a spouse and you have enough money, you just each have a car and do your own thing. If you have kids, then maybe you are not allowed to "do your own thing" with your own car because, well, for lots of reasons that might make sense or might never be fully explained. This is just life.
Thus explains a big part of the reason the slowing EV adoption rate and (probably) why the automakers are still trying to figure out how to get a 500 mile EV battery at low cost, despite all of the technical people's insistence that this isn't needed (thanks tech people, for all your rational answer/advice for a problem people think about irrationally). It also could explain the newfound interest in hybrids (see my second point below). Price still plays a part in this as well, but when EVs are at cost parity I can guarantee you that there will be plenty of people still buying gas cars and hybrids for a long, long time.
Meanwhile, those who can make a simple, quick decision to switch to an EV have already done so. The early adopters have adopted, and now the rest have to slowly come to a decision to switch or stay on the sidelines longer.
I think "politics" and "where people get their news and information" are the same thing, and I honestly don't think that "politics" plays that big of a role. I think dumb smart people like Elon Musk thought it would play a role, which is why he was so eager to serve as Trump's useful idiot - he honestly thought that if he became really conservative-leaning that he would expand the market for EVs by a lot because conservatives would then like him and therefore like his EV company and EVs. Turns out he was pretty wrong, because (in my opinion) people who lean conservative are basically not that interested in change of any kind, and an EV is a pretty big change. The politics around this are a result of how conservatives think, not the thing that drives their behavior. Yeah, I know that there are other factors as well, and there are lots of anecdotes that will get offered up to disprove what I am saying, but the core driver is that people who think conservatively basically don't want much change, so change will happen very slowly with them. A hybrid vehicle or a plug-in hybrid is a way to introduce them slowly to something new and different, but not that much different, and get them use to a change and be willing to take a bigger step the next time.
Remember also, buying a car is a pretty big purchase for most people - maybe the biggest one they will ever make (aside from a house, if they own a house). There is huge downside to getting it wrong. If you have money, no big deal - something goes wrong you just trade it in and start over, and learn from your mistake. For many people, getting it wrong could be an unrecoverable financial disaster. But hybrids and plug-in hybrids are a way for people to dip their toes into an electrified future without taking a big risk - worst-case scenario is that the battery fails and then they just have a gas car - no big deal. And it didn't cost much more or anything more anyways. And it still has a long range and is easy to fill up.
So, between the "half = empty" population, those that are part of a couple in which the "half=empty person" has strong influence over buying decisions, the conservatives who resist change, and those who financially can't take a risk, we have probably 75-80% of the car-buying population in the US who are going to be sitting on the sidelines about EVs for a lot longer. I'm not judging that 75-80% of the population or their decisions - this is just how it is. I am trying to point out that if you told these 75-80% that they are not buying an EV because of politics then you would not be having a very good dialog with them.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
If buying a vehicle was such a perilous financial decision more people would use public transportation. An EV risk is no different than an ICE. Range anxiety is a thing until it’s not. It hasn’t been a real concern for Teslas in a really long time. We saw several EVs at Chaco Canyon NM. It’s the most remote place I’ve ever been. Look it up on a map. And it was hot! Like 105. And they left the AC on for their dog while they did the visitor center.
We want one vehicle to perform all the functions we could ever do hunk we might ever do. Hence the rise of the 4x4/AWD SUV. I might want to/need to drive through some mid or snow sometime and tow a trailer that I might purchase in that future and make 1000 mile trip in a single day.
Hmmm @DBoon. I have a couple pet theories to explain slow EV adoption that rhyme with yours upthread.
RE half-tankers: About half of the US population is functionally innumerate. I'm not interested in dunking anyone, just that if you ask 'A dress costs $60 and is 33% off, how much does the dress cost on sale?' about half of the US population cannot do that calculation without a calculator! This blew my mind years ago, as a person who has thoroughly integrated math into his daily activities and thought processes.
And then I got over it. Different strokes, our brains are all different. Some people use a sense of direction to navigate, some use landmarks. Whatever.
And driving an EV (years ago) really required you to juggle a bunch of numbers in your head, to estimate range at destination and on the return leg, effects of topography, heaters, etc. But more importantly, you had to **deeply trust** the result of that juggling of numbers in your head. If you got 'C's on a bunch of math tests your whole life, would you trust your abilities?
This is why Tesla's had excellent early adoption... they were MATH FREE! You tell the car where you want to go, and it tells you that you will make it there, no problem. When the car needs to charge it doesn't go 'DANGER! You have to find a charging place or get stranded' it says 'Hey, we are going to stop at the waypoint for 15 minutes, no big deal.' It was all integrated INTO the nav system.
So I imagine that those 'half tanker' know that a half tank of gas drives a REALLY long distance, and if they fill up when they hit half a tank, they will never run out, NO MATH REQUIRED. Done.
Good News, my latest EV (with Android Automotive built in) does the whole Tesla thing with Google Maps. You tell Google you are driving an EV, and it tells you how much charge you will have when you get there (its slightly conservative too), when you return, and auto-adds via's at fast chargers when needed.
So I don't see the 'half-tankers' and math-phobes as being an EV impediment any more.
Re the information/misinformation thing: I agree, but think that MOST people are risk averse AND skeptical of what any media tells them about tech. Maybe we bought some gadget years ago that really underperformed, and we learned to not trust that new tech works the way they say it does in the store. This is not a political problem... its people fearing snake oil.
When I got my first EV (a Gen 1 LEAF in 2014), all my wife and my friends were VERY curious, but also skeptical that it would work OK. Not bc of misinfo, just that built in 'new tech' distrust. Only after my non-tech wife drove that car to work and back every day rain and shine, summer and winter, no problem for a year..... then they believed. And two families we knew then bought LEAFs in 2015, and BEVs since.
Like the math thing, only a subset of techie folks (and early adopters) trust their judgement of a new technology to try it COLD, without friends having tried it first.
While there are still plenty of 'bubbles' in the US of low EV adoption, in most places folks have friends with EVs that are using them just fine. Those markets will change as more compelling products at compelling prices become available. Same old story as everywhere else.
With my Sister and her solo disappointed friend, I'm sure it's a driver training issue... car salesmen know very little about EVs. Most of the ones I bought EVs from were curious if I would make it home from the dealership, where I would charge it, etc! Maybe their nav is not set up correctly to go to good DCFCs, or they don't own (or know about) Tesla adapters or the Ford app is sending them to Ford-approved DCFCs or just sucks. So they are 'nervous'. it doesn't have to be this way, and it won't be forever.
RE half-tankers: About half of the US population is functionally innumerate. I'm not interested in dunking anyone, just that if you ask 'A dress costs $60 and is 33% off, how much does the dress cost on sale?' about half of the US population cannot do that calculation without a calculator! This blew my mind years ago, as a person who has thoroughly integrated math into his daily activities and thought processes.
And then I got over it. Different strokes, our brains are all different. Some people use a sense of direction to navigate, some use landmarks. Whatever.
And driving an EV (years ago) really required you to juggle a bunch of numbers in your head, to estimate range at destination and on the return leg, effects of topography, heaters, etc. But more importantly, you had to **deeply trust** the result of that juggling of numbers in your head. If you got 'C's on a bunch of math tests your whole life, would you trust your abilities?
This is why Tesla's had excellent early adoption... they were MATH FREE! You tell the car where you want to go, and it tells you that you will make it there, no problem. When the car needs to charge it doesn't go 'DANGER! You have to find a charging place or get stranded' it says 'Hey, we are going to stop at the waypoint for 15 minutes, no big deal.' It was all integrated INTO the nav system.
So I imagine that those 'half tanker' know that a half tank of gas drives a REALLY long distance, and if they fill up when they hit half a tank, they will never run out, NO MATH REQUIRED. Done.
Good News, my latest EV (with Android Automotive built in) does the whole Tesla thing with Google Maps. You tell Google you are driving an EV, and it tells you how much charge you will have when you get there (its slightly conservative too), when you return, and auto-adds via's at fast chargers when needed.
So I don't see the 'half-tankers' and math-phobes as being an EV impediment any more.
Re the information/misinformation thing: I agree, but think that MOST people are risk averse AND skeptical of what any media tells them about tech. Maybe we bought some gadget years ago that really underperformed, and we learned to not trust that new tech works the way they say it does in the store. This is not a political problem... its people fearing snake oil.
When I got my first EV (a Gen 1 LEAF in 2014), all my wife and my friends were VERY curious, but also skeptical that it would work OK. Not bc of misinfo, just that built in 'new tech' distrust. Only after my non-tech wife drove that car to work and back every day rain and shine, summer and winter, no problem for a year..... then they believed. And two families we knew then bought LEAFs in 2015, and BEVs since.
Like the math thing, only a subset of techie folks (and early adopters) trust their judgement of a new technology to try it COLD, without friends having tried it first.
While there are still plenty of 'bubbles' in the US of low EV adoption, in most places folks have friends with EVs that are using them just fine. Those markets will change as more compelling products at compelling prices become available. Same old story as everywhere else.
With my Sister and her solo disappointed friend, I'm sure it's a driver training issue... car salesmen know very little about EVs. Most of the ones I bought EVs from were curious if I would make it home from the dealership, where I would charge it, etc! Maybe their nav is not set up correctly to go to good DCFCs, or they don't own (or know about) Tesla adapters or the Ford app is sending them to Ford-approved DCFCs or just sucks. So they are 'nervous'. it doesn't have to be this way, and it won't be forever.
My BIL and sister got their BEV years ago after hearing about our Volt. She has a diesel SUV for long range travel and uses the little BMW for all the running around she does locally, which is about 80% of her normal driving. It didn't take long for her to adapt, she loves it even if the range is not anything great.
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In 2020 I recall having a conversation with a coworker about EVs. He asked me if I thought my next car would be a BEV and I said nahhh, no way, maybe in 10-20 years - the technology and charging infrastructure aren't there yet. Turned out my next car, bought in 2024, would in fact be a BEV. I love it, have zero regrets, and kind of wish I had gotten one sooner. That's how quickly times can change.
Public transportation is simply not an option for people who live outside of cities, which is a lot of people last time I checked.
It's not a risk for me, and it's obviously not a risk for you. But anything "different" for many people is a big risk, especially when they don't personally know someone who is using that kind of vehicle.
Ebs-P - you and me are those in the minority who made the switch. We understand. You don't have to convince me. But your statements don't address the real concerns lots of people have.
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Agreed, and also not being critical (it is what it is). And I've described similar issues around calculating range, finding a station, location of stations, payment at stations, etc. all factoring into the "charge when not at home" issues.
Agreed that automakers (besides Tesla) are well on their way to solving this problem. HOWEVER, solving the problem and the marketplace recognizing that the problem is solved is potentially a 10 year difference in time.So I don't see the 'half-tankers' and math-phobes as being an EV impediment any more.
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