Why the difference between here and installers/sweeps - insulated liner

[CarbonNeutral]

I haven't found a single stove company here in Mass or NH that recommends an insulated liner for my external chimney - I have a smaller flue, so it's either uninsulated 6" or rigid oval insulated (simpson).

Today I had a sweep who drove out to see me to clean the chimney and quote on an install - he said he wouldn't install the rigid because of the problems that you have if a section goes wrong, and he said that he wouldn't put insulated in his home because of gases that come off the insulation. Other than that he was actually excellent as he said my flue was pretty much clean, so he didn't charge me. .

Stove shops have just been ambivalent about it - "well, if you want to spend your money, but I don't see the point", "I have uninsulated in my exterior chimney - it's fine.."

Contrast that with here where there is an emphasis on insulating the pipe - I've been pretty much convinced that I should go insulated, but I just don't get why there isn't more of a consensus, especially when stove shops can make more money selling insulated to 'educated' customers....

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

thats is strange indeed. These sweeps should be certified, and if they are they know that most clay tile flreplaces are never up to NFPA211 specs, which means in the case of a chimney fire they do not protect the house as they should. Most of the mistakes with clay chimneys is the required air gaps between clay liner and masonry. Which means that the clay liner is transfering heat through to the masonry and into the building frame. This is why UL1777 exists. It is to correct all of the bad installs on clay tile chimneys. The insulation protects the clay in the case of a chimney fire. UL1777 states that every liner should be insulated, and if its not, its not UL1777 listed. In the real world some installers use insulation some dont. Most recommend it for the draft performance, but the really good ones use it to meet UL1777. I would talk to another company and call a different sweet. As far as rigid liners fitting, baloney. They slip in just like any other rigid pipe. there is more work at the damper section with rigid because you have to rivit flex to the rigid to get through the damper and to the appliance. There being lazy. Off gassing is total bull sh*&.

 

[branchburner]

I think shops quote uninsulated because they want to appear competitive - the average guy doesn't understand the benefits of insulating. He may think he's getting a jacked up price for something he doesn't think he wants or needs.

The sweep I used to use will only do insulated on his installs, no exceptions, but he's pricey. Shops seem to say "why waste your money".

And nobody wants to do a block-off plate!

 

[Pagey]

thats is strange indeed. These sweeps should be certified, and if they are they know that most clay tile flreplaces are never up to NFPA211 specs, which means in the case of a chimney fire they do not protect the house as they should. Most of the mistakes with clay chimneys is the required air gaps between clay liner and masonry. Which means that the clay liner is transfering heat through to the masonry and into the building frame. This is why UL1777 exists. It is to correct all of the bad installs on clay tile chimneys. The insulation protects the clay in the case of a chimney fire. UL1777 states that every liner should be insulated, and if its not, its not UL1777 listed. In the real world some installers use insulation some dont. Most recommend it for the draft performance, but the really good ones use it to meet UL1777. I would talk to another company and call a different sweet. As far as rigid liners fitting, baloney. They slip in just like any other rigid pipe. there is more work at the damper section with rigid because you have to rivit flex to the rigid to get through the damper and to the appliance. There being lazy. Off gassing is total bull sh*&.

Until I came here and joined, I never realized the need for an air gap between the clay liner and the masonry. What secures the liner inside the masonry if there is the 1" air gap? I'm not a mason, so I'm trying to wrap my head around the internal workings of a properly constructed masonry chimney. Thanks!

 

[Metal]

It all depends on how the liner was tested (see their individual installation instructions). Some companies require insulation in order to install with zero clearance (which the majority of existing chimneys are) or you can go uninsulated as long as you maintain 1" clearance (by using special spacers in Simpson's case). The main thing for you to do is read the installation instructions (they are usually available on their websites, and this information is required to be in there) and understand the requirements for the liner you choose. Even without safety concerns, an insulated liner will increase your draft and decrease creosote deposits, so it is a great idea for the limited cost.

 

[stejus]

External chimneys in cold climates need an insulated liner. In fact, some stove manufacturers put this in their install manual. RE: better draft with a warm liner and much less creosote. If you have a better draft, you can close down air and use less wood. If you have a less than better draft, you need to have more air to prevent choking the fire and you'll go through more wood. These two reasons are why most with external chimneys in cold climates insulate.

 

[Shari]

Until I came here and joined, I never realized the need for an air gap between the clay liner and the masonry. What secures the liner inside the masonry if there is the 1" air gap? I'm not a mason, so I'm trying to wrap my head around the internal workings of a properly constructed masonry chimney. Thanks!

Check here http://www.youtube.com/user/chimneyDepot?view=videos for LOTS of GOOD videos.

Shari

 

[CarbonNeutral]

I think shops quote uninsulated because they want to appear competitive - the average guy doesn't understand the benefits of insulating. He may think he's getting a jacked up price for something he doesn't think he wants or needs.

The sweep I used to use will only do insulated on his installs, no exceptions, but he's pricey. Shops seem to say "why waste your money".

And nobody wants to do a block-off plate!

I agree with your point, but when my opening words are "I would like to go insulated", you think their eyes would have revolving $ signs like the cartoons.

 

[branchburner]

I think shops quote uninsulated because they want to appear competitive - the average guy doesn't understand the benefits of insulating. He may think he's getting a jacked up price for something he doesn't think he wants or needs.

I agree with your point, but when my opening words are "I would like to go insulated", you think their eyes would have revolving $ signs like the cartoons.

Yeah, it's kind of strange for a retailer to balk when the customer is the one suggesting the upsell. That would be like asking a car dealer for fully loaded and he asks you why.

 

[cmonSTART]

That is really really strange. Not only does it defy common sense, but it is contrary to what I'm learning/reviewing right now doing my CSIA and NFI certification.

 

[Todd]

Most stove shops around here don't push insulating liners. There is a loop hole in UL 1777 that states insulation isn't required if your existing tiles pass inspection to UL something or other, I can't find it but saw it before. So it isn't required for every installation but highly recommended since most chimneys aren't built right or are falling apart inside or will eventually. Your better off to get it done with insulation so you won't have to worry about it later.

 

[CarbonNeutral]

That is really really strange. Not only does it defy common sense, but it is contrary to what I'm learning/reviewing right now doing my CSIA and NFI certification.

Maybe I need to find someone who has taken a qualification in the last ten years....

 

[cmonSTART]

The thing is, if it were my chimney I would want to insulate it to start. It would really bite if I installed it w/o the insulation only to find it really needs it. Then you're dismantling the system and pulling the liner out, only to have to repeat the whole install process.

 

[CarbonNeutral]

The thing is, if it were my chimney I would want to insulate it to start. It would really bite if I installed it w/o the insulation only to find it really needs it. Then you're dismantling the system and pulling the liner out, only to have to repeat the whole install process.

You know, I completely agree. As I think about it, MY problem really stems from the fact that I know I want insulated - it has to be the oval simpson - but as I go to order it I would like to have an installer/sweep validate the parts that I need, especially the stove to tee connection. Problem is that I never can get that far in the conversation because they just don't get it, so therefore I immediately feel that they are not going to pay attention/give any real feedback.

 

[Hogwildz]

The thing is, if it were my chimney I would want to insulate it to start. It would really bite if I installed it w/o the insulation only to find it really needs it. Then you're dismantling the system and pulling the liner out, only to have to repeat the whole install process.

You know, I completely agree. As I think about it, MY problem really stems from the fact that I know I want insulated - it has to be the oval simpson - but as I go to order it I would like to have an installer/sweep validate the parts that I need, especially the stove to tee connection. Problem is that I never can get that far in the conversation because they just don't get it, so therefore I immediately feel that they are not going to pay attention/give any real feedback.

I installed Simpson double wall rigid insulated Duravent liner. I called Simpson direct and spoke with a nice guy who told me exactly what parts & part numbers I needed to order from a distributor.
I forget his name, think it might have been Dale. Call them, and ask for technical dept.