Wood-Burning Insert Advice

[Snakebit12]

Hello everyone,

I have been browsing this forum for a few months and have found it to be the single best resource in my search for a high-efficiency wood burning insert. With my 1st post, I hope to pick your collective brains a bit.

We have a large Cape Cod - 2,000 sq ft on the main floor and another 1,000 sq ft upstairs (including the airspace of a cathedral ceiling). I have attached a couple of pictures of the main living room which also shows the current ZC fireplace which is centrally located in the house.

Our power bills were horrible this winter and I have 50 acres of woods...burning wood for supplemental heat seems quite logical.

The ZC is a Heat-n-Glo model which is strictly ornamental (picture attached). It generates little heat and likely costs us money to use as it sucks more warm air up the flue than it radiates. The chimney is lined with 30' of CF11 - standard chimney for these types of fireplaces - 11" ID / 13" OD. The Chimney is about 35' off the ground, on a 12/12 roof and about 4' above the peak of the roof (attached a pic for that too). It is not easy to get up there so I am wanting an insert that allows flue cleaning from the bottom up. I plan to do this cleanings myself (and have an annual sweep inspection).



The ZC fireplace seems fairly large...39" W x 24" H x 19" D. During my research, it appears that only a few inserts designed for use in ZCs wouldn't fit...and those were due to the 19" depth.

The boss is wanting a flush insert for aesthetic reasons - a free standing stove is not a viable option. She could perhaps be persuaded to consider an insert that extends onto the hearth maybe up to 6"...but flush is her clear preference. I have a Generac home backup generator (LP) and the fans for the insert would connect to a generator circuit in case of a power failure.

We are quite rural and there is not a bevy of dealers in our area (Shenandoah Valley in VA). One dealer handles Quadrafire and PE. The other dealer handles Jotul, Lopi and others (but only Jotul is on-site). They aren't keen on the idea of putting an insert into a ZC fireplace. But there are local chimney companies that will pick up the insert and install it along with the 6" HT liner that I am hoping will slide nicely inside the existing 11" ID chimney.

We have been seriously considering a Grand Voyager (even though I have not read gushing reviews on this site). The Boss liked the looks (as it was flush), the unit would handsomely cover the opening with cast surround and, while it probably wouldn't heat 3,000 sq ft, it would help cut down on electricity and LP bills (heat pumps).

While browsing the Quad installation manual, I noted that there is a "t-bar" which attaches the flue to the insert which effectively bisects the flue opening coming up from the insert. According to the Quad rep that my dealer spoke with, this "t-bar" makes it "next to impossible" to clean the chimney from the bottom up (unless you remove the insert each time).

So, we may be back at square one...and seeking your advice.

We think that we are looking for:

1. The largest insert that will fit in my ZC
2. From a reputable manufacturer of quality fireplaces
3. That is either flush or "almost flush" and
4. Can be cleaned from the bottom up and
5. Will pump as much heat as possible into a 3,000 sq ft area.

Thanks in advance and my apologies for the absurd length of my 1st post.

John

 

[Bigg_Redd]

1) There is no flush insert that will sufficiently heat that space.

2) Aesthetics are a cruel and variably mistress

3) Take your boss to a couple stove dealers. Have her look at a few. She might see past the flush mount fixation.

4) Re-read #1

 

[dafattkidd]

welcome to the forum, John. Nice house! 50 acres, man that is awsome. If you're dead set on flush mount inserts then your pretty limited. My buddy has the Avalon flush hybrid insert. I think it has a 3 cf firebox. He likes it a lot and has had success heating his house the past couple of winters. I think most manufacturers have one flush insert. The popularity of flush inserts seems to be gaining. Heat output tends to be less from this style insert. Redd had a good suggestion of taking your boss to see other not so flush inserts.

A few thing to note while looking: generally the firebox size dictates heat output. Be careful not to get too caught up in manufacturers specs on btus, emissions, etc.

Also get some wood cut and split asap. It usually takes at least a year for wood to be seasoned after being split and stacked. Oak takes two years- sometimes longer. So while you're figuring out what to buy, tap into that 50 acres and get that wood supply ready for the next two years. Good luck!

 

[Woody Stover]

2) Aesthetics are a cruel and variably mistress

There should be some give and take, especially on something as utilitarian as home heating. But the ladies seem to be fixated on the appearance of the 'nest,' for whatever reason. To me, it's like watching the stove burn; It's not something that holds my attention long. Heck, the only part of the interior I really look at is the path to my next destination.
One decorating scheme I do remember was at the cabin of some family friends on the Menominee River. In the front room, he had a bunch of rusty iron hanging on the wall, old boat anchors and logging equipment that he had dredged up out of the river. Now that was tastefully done.

 

[ironworker]

That's a nice big hearth you got there, personally a regular insert would would look a lot nicer than a flush, after all it is more utilitarian than aesthetic. But that is just my opinion which is worth what you paid. And with all that wood you might want to start looking at chainsaws and other firewood tools and start that now so your wood will be ready for next year, seasoning of wood is very important and so is having the right tools. I have a Lopi freedom insert and have no problem cleaning it from the bottom.

 

[Bobbin]

I completely understand your wife's concerns about the aesthetics of your home. I work in a trade related to home decoration/interior design and there is a general prejudice against wood heat that permeates the field. That said, I was already "on board" with a wood stove when we built our home because they offer the most heat. But I flatly refused to have a yard sale special installed in "my" living room, too. I grew up in NH during the "energy crisis" and well remember the scramble to put in wood stoves and how perfectly dreadful they looked (and smelled)... they were hastily/thoughtlessly/frequently dangerously installed and there was nearly always a debris field surrounding them. It left a lasting impression on me. And it galvanized my resolve to insist on thoughtful, careful, attractive installations of our stoves. Many visitors to my shop walk right by my stove without "recognizing" it as a stove, designers included. It's fun to see the "aha moment" of recognition.

If the goal is heat, make the time to sit down and explain the mechanics of the endeavor to the lady of the house. Some careful scrutiny of stove/insert galleries showing attractive installations may just sway her enough to move the plan forward and allay concerns about the finished "look" of your investment. It's often hard to "picture" something that is going to change a view or "look" of your home that you already like very much. Change can be scary!

 

[KB007]

Learn how to manage up better if the boss is busting your chops.

But seriously, get her out to see some things, distract her with shiny gold trim or accent pieces. There's a big difference between sitting out a few inches and sitting out a foot or more. There are all sorts of finishes these days - steel, gold/silver/nickel accents, cast iron, enameled cast or steel. Lots of options. As an example, have her look at the Hamptons with the nice enamel, the Hearthstones, Jotul for cast iron. Our Regency is basic black with a gold door. Wife wasn't too keen until we added the gold door. Now she loves the look. You can also potentially get nice surrounds as well.

If all else fails, put your foot down - then spend a couple of nights on the couch - it'll be worth it in the long run to save money.

 

[KB007]

And as for the T-Bar, my guy gets his poly brush around the T bar no problem to clean the bottom of the chimney.

 

[Snakebit12]

Thanks for the input, folks. This has almost become an obsession so it helps to have people keep you on the straight and narrow.

KB007 - on the T-bar, I plan to clean the entire chimney from the bottom. I am not familiar with the Regency - are you saying that it also utilizes a t-bar? Perhaps the Quad T-bar is more challenging? The rep had to know that he was likely losing a sale by stating that it was "next to impossible" to clean the entire chimney from the bottom. I was planning to use a Sooteater (had heard good things about them) - not sure if that is more challenging to get passed the t-bar than a poly brush or not.

The hearth is 24" wide so it will certainly handle some extension and stay within code. The trick, I think, is to find a very attractive unit....preferable cast iron with a cast iron surround about 46" wide to completely cover the opening. I may well get the Boss to yield from "flush" to "kinda flush" but she is pretty set on a cast iron surround (aesthetics again). She does not like the looks of flat metal surround in that room. I have been struggling a bit to find a unit that wide - the Quad Grand Voyager (of course) fit the bill with its "Cast Trim Large" surround. The 4100i would have worked as well.

Obviously, I am the one pushing the insert...I pay the utility bills. We are retired and around each other all the time so "Peace on Earth" has to come into play! But we do have a nice couch...right in front of the fireplace.

 

[Bobbin]

I wouldn't object to either one! I prefer the 4100, I like the different angles it provides to view the fire.

 

[jatoxico]

That looks like a whole lot of cu ft to heat. Considering you also have limitations due to the ZC it may be tough to get what you are hoping for. No chance to put a free standing stove in a different location in the house and leave the fireplace alone? Somewhere near an outside entrance so you're not dragging the wood through the house. That might appeal to the boss. Can be very disappointing to spend 3-5K and still not make a big dent in indoor temps. A big freestander in the right place can pump out heat.

 

[weatherguy]

You have to find an insert that can be installed into a zc, I don't think you'll be able to satisfy all the items on your list. I would make a list of stoves that can be installed in a zc then pick one from that.

 

[KB007]

The T bar on the Regency is just a piece of 1/4" stainless threaded rod iirc, maybe another piece that goes in there, but it was all pretty small stuff, should not block the opening much on a 6" liner. That's BS.

Edit - it's a hook piece and a t-bar - see it on page 7 of this manual:

(broken link removed to http://www.regency-fire.com/Files/Manuals/I3100-908-332.aspx)

Can't see how that would stop a poly brush from getting up the flue. Note it also says "Optional" flue connection, I think it is possible to simply screw the liner to the stove outlet, at least with ours that's the case afaik (see page 8).

 

[larry3228]

I have a 4100i that I bought in 2010. It is the model before they went to ACC so there are some differences. I have a 2,100 sq foot house in Columbia, TN built in 1979. It has a couple of log walls that are kind of leaky. Like you I have a cathedral ceiling in the living room/dining room with the upstairs hall open to the space below. It is installed in a stone fireplace with an exterior stone chimney about 18' tall/ When the temperature gets into the low 20's it can't keep up and the propane comes on. I build my night fire at about 10 PM and the propane comes on sometime around 5 am most mornings. That being said I went from 2+ tanks of propane each year to less than 1/2 tank. I also don't need to use the electric heat upstairs. Overall I am very happy with the unit.

When we bought the house there was an UGLY old smoke dragon insert that we had removed immediately. We used the fireplace most winter Saturday nights for ambiance for a couple of years. My wife was initially hesitant to get an insert - she could only think about the old stove. After some convincing she went with me to a couple of stove dealers. She wanted to have as much of the fireplace feeling as possible. The extension of the firebox and the 2 angled windows of the 4100i caught her fancy and she finally agreed to that. We went with the brushed nickel trim and an over-sized surround with the cast iron trim. Now she complains when I don't have a fire on a cool night.

 

[Grisu]

That one could (just) fit and maybe get the ok of the "boss"?! (broken link removed to http://www.fireplacex.com/productguide/productdetail.aspx?modelsku=99800604#Dimensions)

Also available as arched version: http://www.fireplacex.com/ProductGuide/ProductDetail.aspx?modelsku=99800177#Installation

Btw. Is your wood already cut, split and stacked? You will need at least 3 cords of dry firewood - no matter which insert you will get.

 

[dafattkidd]

That one could (just) fit and maybe get the ok of the "boss"?! (broken link removed to http://www.fireplacex.com/productguide/productdetail.aspx?modelsku=99800604#Dimensions)

Also available as arched version: http://www.fireplacex.com/ProductGuide/ProductDetail.aspx?modelsku=99800177#Installation

Btw. Is your wood already cut, split and stacked? You will need at least 3 cords of dry firewood - no matter which insert you will get.

Oh crap! That's the one my buddy has. Not the Avalon.

 

[dafattkidd]

I was thinking he had this one. But I was wrong. Nonetheless, here's another 3 cf flush insert. This one has lights. (broken link removed)

 

[Grisu]

I was thinking he had this one. But I was wrong. Nonetheless, here's another 3 cf flush insert. This one has lights. (broken link removed)

You were not wrong in the first place. Both companies are part of Travis and that is almost certainly the same insert. You apparently get a few choices about the front. That cypress face looks quite nice but I dunno what the lights are good for.

 

[Grisu]

Btw. Since your fireplace is not located at an exterior wall I would not worry too much about flush versus non-flush. Any heat generated by the insert will end up in the house or go up the flue. Just make sure you don't overfire it.

 

[_CY_]

The ZC fireplace seems fairly large...39" W x 24" H x 19" D. During my research, it appears that only a few inserts designed for use in ZCs wouldn't fit...and those were due to the 19" depth.

The boss is wanting a flush insert for aesthetic reasons - a free standing stove is not a viable option. She could perhaps be persuaded to consider an insert that extends onto the hearth maybe up to 6"...but flush is her clear preference. I have a Generac home backup generator (LP) and the fans for the insert would connect to a generator circuit in case of a power failure

what you want is an Cat insert that's got 4.5 cubic feet capacity or close to it.

Buck 91 and Blaze King model King would be the logical choices .. both can heat size space you've described.
the Buck 91 will be substantially less expensive .. both are excellent wood stoves.
you will need to run an 8in stainless insulated steel liner for entire length for both Buck 91 and BK

this link has pic's for Buck 91 install.. my fireplace is massive
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...neral-wool-instead-of-block-off-plate.124737/

 

[Snakebit12]

Can't see how that would stop a poly brush from getting up the flue. Note it also says "Optional" flue connection, I think it is possible to simply screw the liner to the stove outlet, at least with ours that's the case afaik (see page 8).[/quote]

KB007, I have attached the comparable diagram from the Quad manual - it doesn't appear to be optional. On the Regency, it looks like s an option to assist in pulling the flue down to the insert...on the Quad, I think that it's the means of attaching the two.

On the Avalon, that appears to have a Cat...I was hoping to avoid a Cat. Nice looking fireplace.

I have 2 cords stacked and plan to CSS a couple more this spring. Oak and Hickory.

As an aside, I was wondering if the PE Summit might fit the bill. The reviews on here have been very positive.

My wife is beginning to waiver on the "flush fixation". I showed her our most recent LP and electricity bills.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

On the Avalon, that appears to have a Cat

I'm pretty sure they don't have a cat stove

As an aside, I was wondering if the PE Summit might fit the bill.

Yes

 

[begreen]

The flush, Avalon Hybrid-Fire insert has both secondary combustion and a catalyst, similar to the Cape Cod freestanding stove.

 

[_CY_]

The flush, Avalon Hybrid-Fire insert has both secondary combustion and a catalyst, similar to the Cape Cod freestanding stove.

that's a 3 cubic feet firebox insert rated to a max of 2500sf or marginal at best to heat 3000sf space requirements. really surprised Avalon hybrid has only a 80% efficiency rating. Buck 91 ($2700 retail) has 86% efficiency rated to 3200sf, 4.4 cubic ft firebox ... BK model King (no set retail about $4k) has 88% efficiency rated to 3000sf, 4.3 cubic ft firebox

a cat stove gives the most versatile heat output with ability to put out max heat and low and slow during shoulder weather. the jury is still out for hybrid stoves. no reason why hybrids shouldn't deliver the best of both secondary burn and cat. but there's no substitute for size .. XX lb of wood will deliver a certain number of btu .. larger fireboxes hold more wood and delivers more heat per load. nothing magical going on here ..

 

[KB007]

Caqn't see that stopping a poly brush either. Think someone's a little mis-informed perhaps. As for the PE Summit, looked at one and it's a nice unit, gets great reviews too.