Wood Burning Insert? Yay or Nay?

[firemark]

It's me again ;-)

We have a nice old masonry fireplace in good repair in our 1500 sq. ft., 1 story ranch type home.

It's inefficient, at best. We want to heat more with wood to save electricity. Our electric heat pump isn't that efficient in winter, either.

I was quoted a price of approx. $2000, labor included for a High Valley wood-burning catalytic EPA insert from Southern Hearth in Huntsville. We like this store a lot. It comes with a 110 blower.

We like the "shelf" on the insert that could be used to cook, if needed.

There were 2 models, the 2500 and 1500 catalytic inserts. The 2500 has a 3.5 cu ft firebox and heats up to 2500 sq ft. The 1500 has a 2.5 cu ft firebox and heats up to 2000 sq ft. As I said, my home is 1500 sq ft, so I don't want too much stove, even though the price difference is only $200.

The salesperson told us that if we went with the larger stove, that our chimney would most likely not have to be relined. It has a rectangular flue...11" x ?...I cannot recall.

I would like to make a decision this week. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[shawneyboy]

You would probably be better off to reline the flue no matter what. Just IMHO.

Shawn

 

[offroadaudio]

It's safest to reline either way. With inserts - go big - always go big, you're looking for real heat and you'll get longer burns with the larger fire box.

 

[ddddddden]

2.5 cu ft isn't too small, but +1 on the biggun for $200 extra. It's catalytic, so burning low enough to be comfortable *should* (not really familiar with High Valley) not be a problem. Even if you always run it low and never use the extra heat the biggun can generate, you will get more time between reloads, and you will have more flexibility with wood size and loading the firebox. OTOH, a smaller stove would get up to operating temp a lil' more quickly, which might be important to you if you don't burn 24/7 and do a lot of cold starts. A smaller stove running harder would probably have more flames to watch too. . .really comes down to what style of burning you want to do. Also, if the biggun requires an 8" flue, the liner would cost more than the 6" that the lil'un probably uses.

 

[firemark]

2.5 cu ft isn't too small, but +1 on the biggun for $200 extra. It's catalytic, so burning low enough to be comfortable *should* (not really familiar with High Valley) not be a problem. Even if you always run it low and never use the extra heat the biggun can generate, you will get more time between reloads, and you will have more flexibility with wood size and loading the firebox. OTOH, a smaller stove would get up to operating temp a lil' more quickly, which might be important to you if you don't burn 24/7 and do a lot of cold starts. A smaller stove running harder would probably have more flames to watch too. . .really comes down to what style of burning you want to do. Also, if the biggun requires an 8" flue, the liner would cost more than the 6" that the lil'un probably uses.

I was just about to post that the 2500 requires a 8" flue minimum. And, what you said, was what the salesman said, the bigger stoves' price difference isn't not that much more since the smaller stove requires a liner.

Southern Hearth has been in business a LONG time, and I trust them. I have never heard anything negative about them.

 

[ddddddden]

Unless the size of the masonry flue is very close to ~ 50 sq in, I would use a liner with the biggun too. Venting into an oversize exterior masonry flue is a recipe for lazy draft.

 

[ddddddden]

. . .so what I was actually trying to say was that the larger 8" liner for the biggun would cost more than the 6" liner for the lil'un, making the difference between the two stoves with appropriate liner something like $400 total.

 

[firemark]

As usual, I'm confused about inserts and chimneys. My flue is rectangular, too. Alas, I may never go through with it.

ETA: Maybe gas is where I should look? I'm on a budget. This insert is getting expensive.

 

[ddddddden]

Rectangular shape doesn't matter as much as size. Basically, the currently "acceptable" installation for an insert involves a "positive connection," using a liner up to at least the lowest flue tile in the masonry chimney. Best install = liner to top of chimney. Liner pipes aren't that expensive if you DIY.

 

[BrowningBAR]

2.5 cu ft isn't too small, but +1 on the biggun for $200 extra. It's catalytic, so burning low enough to be comfortable *should* (not really familiar with High Valley) not be a problem. Even if you always run it low and never use the extra heat the biggun can generate, you will get more time between reloads, and you will have more flexibility with wood size and loading the firebox. OTOH, a smaller stove would get up to operating temp a lil' more quickly, which might be important to you if you don't burn 24/7 and do a lot of cold starts. A smaller stove running harder would probably have more flames to watch too. . .really comes down to what style of burning you want to do. Also, if the biggun requires an 8" flue, the liner would cost more than the 6" that the lil'un probably uses.

I was just about to post that the 2500 requires a 8" flue minimum. And, what you said, was what the salesman said, the bigger stoves' price difference isn't not that much more since the smaller stove requires a liner.

Southern Hearth has been in business a LONG time, and I trust them. I have never heard anything negative about them.

Both should be lined.

 

[ddddddden]

If natural gas is available to you, it's certainly easier than burning wood, and it's priced attractively. . .for now.

 

[begreen]

I reread your old posts. Sorry you didn't make a decision prior to the end of the year. If on a budget, that 30% would have made a difference. However, there is a limited tax credit for 2011 that will still help a little.

In the previous threads we learned that this is a ranch, with a one-story chimney, that drafts poorly in milder weather, correct? We also had a report that when it was 24F outside you were overheated using just the fireplace. If so, you don't need a larger stove. With these givens, plus the stated willingness to self-install, I would recommend that you stick with a smaller stove and absolutely install a 6" liner. If the goal is to save money, I would get an Englander 13NC insert, (note price includes shipping to the nearest freight terminal). And I would get a 6" liner kit. Do this correctly and safely and you will have a satisfying heating experience that stays on budget. But don't cut corners trying to save a nickel here and there. Do it right.

stove: http://www.overstockstoves.com/50tnc13i--epa-certified-noncatalytic-wood-stove--1550131500.html
liner: http://www.dynamitebuys.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=53

 

[firemark]

I reread your old posts. Sorry you didn't make a decision prior to the end of the year. If on a budget, that 30% would have made a difference. However, there is a limited tax credit for 2011 that will still help a little.

In the previous threads we learned that this is a ranch, with a one-story chimney, that drafts poorly in milder weather, correct? We also had a report that when it was 24F outside you were overheated using just the fireplace. If so, you don't need a larger stove. With these givens, plus the stated willingness to self-install, I would recommend that you stick with a smaller stove and absolutely install a 6" liner. If the goal is to save money, I would get an Englander 13NC insert, (note price includes shipping to the nearest freight terminal). And I would get a 6" liner kit. Do this correctly and safely and you will have a satisfying heating experience that stays on budget. But don't cut corners trying to save a nickel here and there. Do it right.

stove: http://www.overstockstoves.com/50tnc13i--epa-certified-noncatalytic-wood-stove--1550131500.html
liner: http://www.dynamitebuys.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=53

Thanks, But I am leaning to having it professionally installed. I'm just a bit "lost".

 

[firemark]

Surely, the salesman wasn't BS'n me about the liner not being necessary for the 2500???

 

[begreen]

The salesperson sounds like he is trying to accommodate the customer's requests. The customer needs to understand that draft is important. With a short flue in a mild climate, draft will be wimpy at times, leading to poor burns and smoke spillage when opening stove doors. Save the $200 and put it toward the liner.

Also wondering if you want a catalytic stove? It will cost more, but will have some benefits in a milder climate. If not and the bottom line is $$, maybe see if there are any good, certified chimney sweeps in the area that do installations and will let you supply the stove + liner kit?

 

[joel95ex]

Yes, run a stainless liner and forget about chimney problems.....also easier to clean than masonry.....Liner should be insulated

 

[Todd]

3.5 cu ft fire box is over kill for 1500 sq ft in AL. the 2.5 box will be plenty.Like others have pointed out you should reline either way.

 

[ddddddden]

Yes, the 3.5 is overkill, but, since it's a cat stove, I was going for the "BK effect," despite the lack of a thermostat. You know, load 100 lbs of wood and burn for 100 hrs. If the Fire Gods think not, I defer to their wisdom. The High Valley may not be happy simmering @ 5kBTU / Hr. It would be nice if they published some specs, other than the stove dimensions. Aside from overheating the house, I s'pose there might be an issue with trying to burn low and maintaining draft in a short chimney. . .

 

[begreen]

There comes a point of diminishing returns. A big cat stove, stuck on permanent idle, is not going to have the cleanest glass or pipes.

The other part of the problem is that we have almost zero exposure to this brand stove. It could do well or not, hard to say. This is not a common model.

 

[krex1010]

I agree that the 3.5 cu ft firebox is overkill. I heat 1500 sq ft cape cod with an insert that is just over 2 cu ft, it is big enough for easy overnight heating, and really is my primary heater, and I live a bit of a colder climate than you. I am a proponent of going a bit larger than you need when it comes to inserts but I think the 2.5 cu ft stove has that extra size covered for you. But no matter what stove you go with definitely fully line that chimney. And if it is an exterior chimney start thinking about insulating it as well.

 

[firemark]

Thanks for the replies.

I did a lot of thinking, and I have decided that, I am going to insulate my attic with blown cellulose up to R60, install 2 better sealing entry doors, POSSIBLY insulate my walls, for HOPEFULLY less than $2000.

This buys me time until the fall, and will HOPEFULLY save me money this summer, and, then I will make a hearth decision.

 

[Pagey]

If you think you will end up going with an insert this fall, NOW is the time to get your fuel supply on hand, especially if you go with a catalytic insert. Cat stoves really, really prefer seasoned wood. You can probably get by with a little more marginal fuel in a non-cat stove, but you're still shooting for stuff that's around 20% moisture content.

And, as others have suggested, you won't regret the decision to install an insulated liner in the existing flue. Draft is the engine that drives the entire heating system, and today's stoves are designed to work best when mated with the proper diameter flue. Additionally, lining the masonry flue will take care of any pre-existing issues that may exist with the current flue (e.g., cracked tiles, etc.).

And finally, for your climate, I think the 2.5 cubic foot firebox would be sufficient. We have a 2.2 cubic foot firebox, and with the exception of very bitter weather, it does a fine job heating 1,800 sq. ft.

 

[robertmcw]

“The salesperson told us that if we went with the larger stove, that our chimney would most likely not have to be relined. It has a rectangular flue…11†x ?...I cannot recall.â€


I am not an insert know it all, but if you don’t install a full liner, isn’t that is it not in code? I am hearing bells over the place here. AND, don’t you have a full liner don’t you pull the whole insert each time to clean the flue? Is it fine with you insurance company is get an insert and don’t get a full liner? I have other people here say if there is a fire, they won’t pay without a full liner.

Robert

 

[zzr7ky]

Hi -

I would line it and go with the smaller unit. It should od a great job for you without roasting you out. A 3.5 cubic foot is just too much for your place.

Enjoy,
Mike

 

[ddddddden]

I think code in most of the US is a minimum of a "positive connection," a liner attached to the bottom flue tile in a masonry flue. I can't see bothering with this and not going another 10-15 ft, typically, to the top of the chimney. I believe the full liner code is Canadian. Ins co's can require anything. Some go with local code. Some have their own code and inspection.