Wood pellet boiler vs Propane or other

[lokewolf]

House #1 2006--- LP Heat/water tank and AC. We added a wood stove, got LP use down to 500 gal from 1000 in 2400 sq/ft home.

House #2 2013--- older house with same footprint but no wood stove. This house had propane tankless water and forced hot air and consumption went to 1100 gallons of LP at $2.40/gal.

House #3 2015 (New construction) --- I need help!
I'm looking at a Kedel 102 WPB as source of heat vs propane forced air, but also need cooling solution for new home construction in Zone 5/6 of NH. Upper 2700, finished basement 700sq/ft...builder quoted as saying the box will be pretty tight in regards to energy efficiency, like a step below Energy Star. I have $16500 in heating cooling budget per the builder, the hot water Rheem tankless is included in build but not part of the $16500 budget he has. I'm trying to figure out if an $18500 Kedel install is worth it and if what kind of ROI I could expect to see based on 1000-1200 gal propane use? Based on that Kedel figure with 30% off its $12950, but I need cooling and mini-splits could get costly. Then if I go with duct-work I have to account for the cost of that installed and AC unit.

My head is spinning...I could use some help.

Option1 - LP FHA / AC unit w/ducting
Option2 - LP FHA / AC unit w/ducting and pellet stove to supplement heat
Option3 - Kedel 102 WPB w/hydronic handlers, ducting and AC unit for cooling
Option4 - Hybrid Heat pump/AC with LP FHA
Option5 - Geothermal (heating and cooling)
Option6 - any other options or ideas???

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

You have to start with a floor plan, room-by-room Manual 'J'. Once you know what the loads will be you can intelligently determine the equipment than will work, what it will cost to install, operate and maintain.

Before the Manual 'J' you don't know anything.

 

[maple1]

I have a hot water heating system that I REALLY like.

But, if I was building new, mini-splits would be my first consideration. Heat & a/c, with no ductwork (I hate ductwork) or associated heat exchangers/hydronic handlers.

Heat pump water heater for DHW - or just conventional electric heater.

Maybe add a wood stove in the right place for supplemental mid-winter heat. Or pellet stove.

And yes you should have a heat loss calc done - without that you will just be guessing and might come up short. Or over do it.

 

[velvetfoot]

A friend of mine, (local, so pretty cold), has a very efficient central heat pump (with propane backup) and he likes that it continues to operate in cold weather. He has quite a number of zones as well, and for whatever reason, I can't hear it running when we visit. That, and a pretty big, depending on your layout, insert or wood stove in the space you spend most of your time in-it would ambiance. I like the idea of geothermal-maybe you should get some estimates. I think of mini-splits as something you add on, not when building new.

All that said, my Windhager has been working great, but all I have is hot water baseboard, no A/C. I'm burning down my store of pellets now, continuing to make hot water, until the box is as empty as I can get it, then I'll start up the heat pump water heater.

 

[moey]

Id suggest getting quotes for all your options and then weighing in comfort and convenience. Im sure the builder will push you strongly in one direction whatever they are familiar with not necessarily the best option by any means.

I put a premium on comfort I dont like one room being 80 and one 60. I dont like tending to a heating appliance. I dont like having to supplement to save money. I dont want a central heating system that pisses me off because its expensive to run.

 

[BoilerMan]

Heat & a/c, with no ductwork (I hate ductwork) or associated heat exchangers/hydronic handlers.

Heat pump water heater for DHW - or just conventional electric heater.

I will second these points! Why run a fan for heat all winter???? Noise, dust, power waste, and discomfort due to air movement.

Fans are for A/C, then the air movement makes you feel cooler.

Better yet build right and the HPWH is about all you need for A/C for 90% of the summer! Thermal mass is the key for good comfort in a tight home. Get it from something, floor, masonry fireplace (centrally located) etc.

TS

 

[JP11]

If I knew then what I had known now.. Mini splits, If I did in floor radiant it would be electric boiler, just to take the chill off the tile. Add on another dozen panels on my solar. Have a 30kw backup generator instead of my 14.

But none of that tech was cheap or prevalent enough just 8 years ago when I built. Changing solar policy could really monkey with the economics.

i guess I'm back to my original recent recommendation. OWN a woodlot, go gasser. Otherwise, go pellet boiler.

With my 70 acres. I could have a cut every 5th year that I could sell, then have the forester deliver me cut and split. I prefer to let them cut trees for me, then I work em from the yard all limbed. When I'm sick of it.. I'll just sell enough wood to buy wood from them.

JP

 

[heaterman]

House #1 2006--- LP Heat/water tank and AC. We added a wood stove, got LP use down to 500 gal from 1000 in 2400 sq/ft home.

House #2 2013--- older house with same footprint but no wood stove. This house had propane tankless water and forced hot air and consumption went to 1100 gallons of LP at $2.40/gal.

House #3 2015 (New construction) --- I need help!
I'm looking at a Kedel 102 WPB as source of heat vs propane forced air, but also need cooling solution for new home construction in Zone 5/6 of NH. Upper 2700, finished basement 700sq/ft...builder quoted as saying the box will be pretty tight in regards to energy efficiency, like a step below Energy Star. I have $16500 in heating cooling budget per the builder, the hot water Rheem tankless is included in build but not part of the $16500 budget he has. I'm trying to figure out if an $18500 Kedel install is worth it and if what kind of ROI I could expect to see based on 1000-1200 gal propane use? Based on that Kedel figure with 30% off its $12950, but I need cooling and mini-splits could get costly. Then if I go with duct-work I have to account for the cost of that installed and AC unit.

My head is spinning...I could use some help.

Option1 - LP FHA / AC unit w/ducting
Option2 - LP FHA / AC unit w/ducting and pellet stove to supplement heat
Option3 - Kedel 102 WPB w/hydronic handlers, ducting and AC unit for cooling
Option4 - Hybrid Heat pump/AC with LP FHA
Option5 - Geothermal (heating and cooling)
Option6 - any other options or ideas???

Sounds like a typical builder. " You betcha! It'll be wrapped up tight cause we build 'em right!"

That's bunk. Tell him you want a heat loss calc done on the proposed construction (Manual J). Then and only then, will you know what you are dealing with.
I've seen houses from the same builder range from 25btu/sq ft all the way down to less than 10. Too many variables and the "default setting" for most of the trade, especially when the builder or GC is calling the shots is to oversize it.

 

[lokewolf]

I have the load calc's Manual J. attaching them to the post...hopefully.
The service/utility room in the finished side of the basement and will be on left wall abutting the garage. This is not in the "DRAW" file but that is where the furnace, tankless and well pump are going. Also,... we are adding a free standing pellet stove in the family/bonus room on the side of the house. Any recommendations on make/model pellet stove?
Here is the equipment proposed:
A_Rheem R96VA0702317MSA, 70k btu, 96% AFUE, 2-stage, LP Furnace, Vari-speed, flue

B_Rheem RCF3617STAM, 3-ton, R-410a, 13 SEER Evaporator Coil

C_Rheem model RP1430AJ1NA, 2.5 ton, R-410a, 14-seer Heat Pump Condenser

The Humidifier is m#600A. (the A means automatic-There is a M model that is cheaper-but manual control) In addition to the humidifier we still need to wire it, supply it with water, pipe the drain of the humidifier, ductwork to connect humidifier, and attach humidifier to furnace/duct.