Good morning all. So my wife is convinced that the reason behind my 4yo daughters congestion is the wood stove. Is there anyway to test the air quality say with the stove not running vs running? I just think it's a coincidence. I also run a whole house humidifier and the level is usually above 30
Wood stove and health concerns
- Thread starter crepitus
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EbS-P
Minister of Fire
What type of whole house humidifier do you have and when was it last serviced? Easiest way is to stop burning for a week. You can get air quality meters that give particulate counts PM 2.5 and 10 and formaldehyde, CO and CO2. Do you have an air purifier? Might put one in her bedroom.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Do note that the vector for stove-related air quality issues could be from top of chimney into second story eaves and windows, rather than out of the stove directly into the living space. This is the situation I occasionally see (or more accurately, smell) in my own house. The stove never smells, but occasionally the wind direction causes make-up air exhausted from a chimney on one part of the house to be drawn into the other end of the house.
So, if it turns out you confirm an air quality problem while burning, it might be resolved by either changes to the venting or choosing your burn days by wind direction.
So, if it turns out you confirm an air quality problem while burning, it might be resolved by either changes to the venting or choosing your burn days by wind direction.
Coyyote
New Member
We live in the Rockies where our air monitor device (Atmotube) usually measures air quality in our log home from 93-97%, which is excellent. I have tested the air quality when our PE T6 is running to heat our home and find readings in the same 93-97%.
This honestly surprised me but am glad to see our wood stove does not affect air quality. So it may be worth looking into an air quality measurement device or consider an air purifier. Some of the air purifiers indicate air quality
This honestly surprised me but am glad to see our wood stove does not affect air quality. So it may be worth looking into an air quality measurement device or consider an air purifier. Some of the air purifiers indicate air quality
I have not turned on the humidifier yet as the level has been around 40. I shut the stove down Sunday so I guess we will see.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
We have 5 kids. Once we came back to regular schedules after Covid between daycare and school it was a constant cold for what seemed like months for someone.
sneefy
Burning Hunk
Coyyote
New Member
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
But it’s so much more than pm and VOC. Think there was any mold on the firewood you brought in? How about CO and CO2.
True air quality complicated and just because they sell us a meter that shows were are in the green zone it still might not be good for us. But it does give us some data
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
I have this one. I’m not saying is good. But it’s good enough to satisfy me. There. Is not data logging which I really with there was.
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BKVP
Minister of Fire
My wife was convinced live christmas trees were the cause of my son getting sick and having terrible coughs every christmas.
I thought nah, my daughter gets sick too but he coughs so so much longer. We started getting an artificial tree and he still gets sick for a long time around the holidays with a lingering cough but otherwise feels better. We had him tested and sure enough he is allergic to pine and ash trees, as well as grass pollen and ragweed. He doesnt suffer during the summer months but he does feel kinda dizzy certain days and will be a bit stuffy.
It's easy to blame that of which has changed recently. Have your daughter tested for allergies then remove the allergen. There are inexpensive high hepa filters to pick from that may help...but avoid those that use UVC lights to kill viruses unless someone has proven the wavelength is 254NM UVC light, and good luck proving that even with a reputable brand unless someone with an expensive meter buys one and tests the light. I avoid them all together.
It may very well be you are hauling in a ton of ash, and she may be highly allergic to ash.
Humidity has nothing to do with determining the cause of the perpetual stuffiness.
I second this, but struggle to find a trustworth air quality tester. The sh** we buy is off gasing so much toxic stuff. Our EPA/FDA is useless, sorry. They do nothing to test the glut of products coming into this country or holding companies accountable for poisoning people for a cheap trinket.
We are in a position of needing to put new carpet in our dining room and living room. We caught wind of some of the crap used to manufacture carpets and have seen first hand young kids roll around on new carpet get up with what looks like burns hours later. Nope, F that...going hardwood and throw rugs that use natural fibers and dyes, and have been thoroughly tested by independent trusted labs.
Coyyote
New Member
I have Atmotube Pro but there are a few more. I have checked it against readings from other public monitors and it seems right on. It does not have NO2 but I depend on the readings of monitors in the area that I can look at an app
Plume, AirIQ and WeatherUndelrground all have free apps that you can check your general locale
But you will need a device if you want to compare your household air with and without wood fire
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Atmotube Pro and Flow 2 are the two most popular portable air pollution monitors on the market. In this article, I compare Flow 2 vs Atmotube Pro.
breathesafeair.com
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Wood stoves are generally going to pull in more outdoor air which this time of the year is dry. Most houses with woodstove get overly dry. A humidifier can help, but dependent on the type and water quality they can introduce particulates in the air. Our fellow member Poindexter is probably the ultimate authority on indoor air quality with wood stoves and has posted several times about his results and experiments.
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@Poindexter has done extensive research in this area. He did a good write-up on the topic including testing and mitigating concerns.
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Poindexter
Minister of Fire
Air quality is indeed a subject I have learned more about than I set out to learn.
4 year old daughter with congestion might be Air Quality, could be hanging out with enough other 4 year olds that there is a constant turn over in garden variety URIs, as above cold be allergies. Can be chemicals in products, the wife and got the last of our wall to wall carpet out this summer.
Divide and conquer I say.
One thing can (should be able to) do is find a local fancy-schmancy air quality monitoring station. I dunno how thick on the ground beta attenuation monitors are back east, a decent BAM unit to count particles will set somebody back $30k, but if there is one near you book mark it in your browser and keep an eye on it. What are the local (outdoor ambient) particle counts when your daughter is having a bad day?
I say this because of your population density. You got a lot of people in a pretty small area in pretty much all of NJ. If Manhattan had the same population density as Alaska there would be three people living in a log cabin at Battery Park (Anchorage) 1 person in a tent in Central Park (Fairbanks) and 2 others folks wandering around the rest of the island going to where ever the fish are running or the game is grazing. I am not sure how many orders of magnitude that is, but you got a lot of people near you burping and passing gas and running their BBQ grills and driving their cars. I am confident you got some particles to count in your outdoor ambient air.
Second is indoor ambient.
You might as well go read up on this thread: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/homemade-air-filters-good-indoor-air-quality-cheap.188986/
and then come back here so I can comment on what I already said without having to type the whole thing twice.
At this point I have two battles.
One is particles generated inside my house, from the geriatric cat, the wood stove, the now absent wall to wall carpet. For those, assuming good/excellent outdoor air quality, I run a single 20" box fan with a single MERV 13 (20x20) furnace filter duct taped neatly to the intake side of the box fan. I replace that filter about every six months. I used a IR thermometer to check the motor housing temperature on the box fan daily for about I dunno, my eyes were bleeding, maybe four months or so. The fan motor was constantly either the same temp as ambient air, or +1dF. I just couldn't monitor it any more after a few months. There are a few days in spring pollen season where we close the windows to let the single filter/ single fan keep the pollen inside the house knocked back, and then reopen the windows once the pollen is done.
Outdoor particles is my other battle. BRB. My nearest BAM counter is the one labelled "NCore" (broken link removed to https://dec.alaska.gov/air/air-monitoring/alaska-air-quality-real-time-data) . Right this moment the controlling variable for air quality is ( no surprise) PM2.5 wiht a measurement of 8 micrograms per cubic meter which converts to a useless AQ "Index" that means my air quality is "good". I dunno how many bureacrats went to how many meetings to come up with the dang air quality "index" but I want my tax dollars returned with interest. The index my opinion, is a stupid pointless useless distraction from good science and useful data. Micrograms per cubic meter is good science. Indexes are for people who wager on the stock market or hire dowsers to locate well water.
So anyway, outdoor particles. In the last 12 months my outdoor ambient PM2.5 count (in mcg/m3) has varied from 0-477. With outdoor counts from 0-125 mcg/m3 my single filter/ single fan array, fan speed set to low, can keep my indoor PM2.5 counts in the 0-6 range.
I'll get around to the V portion of HVAC systems next, at my house all I have for V is a courtesy fan in each of the two bathrooms, and when it is running my woodstove takes combustion air from the living space. In summertime wild fire season where the particle counts get really out of hand I can count on the EPA to be running radio ads about how important wintertime air quality is while not giving any EPA $ to hire smoke jumpers and I want the money spent on summertime radio advertisements refunded to me as well. Sorry, sore subject here. When the outdoor particle counts exceed 125 mcg/m3 I got to dust off some more sophisticated filtration to keep my indoor air quality good. I have a couple cubes that can take 3 20x20 furnace filters (MERV 13 if you recall) and a monster cabinet that holds six 20x20 filters with a 20 inch fan on that one too. When the air gets bad enough (~300 mcg/m3 and up) I will have all of those running full blast to keep my home in the "moderate" or "unhealthy for sensitive groups" ranges.
K. So the problem with ventilation ductwork it is hard to clean poorly and likely impossible to clean well at the residential scale. I have seen commercial scale air handlers with a man door, where you can walk in there with a dust rag and get busy; but the final duct work on those, for individual rooms, not cleanable. If you got crap in your ductwork my advice is to sell your house. Go buy some place with steam radiators and opable windows.
I shall now approach the electric third rail, VOCs, with a well insulated battle axe. If you want to measure VOCs accurately you are screwed. There is a field effect transistor that actually changes its field behavior in the presence of carbon dioxide. If you have a good sized conference room, this is handy. Empty room, the HVAC system just keeps up with temperature. If 200 people show up in the next ten minutes to hear your inspirational sales speech they will be blowing off CO2, a sophisticated HVAC system can detect the CO2 and start the ventilation fans so folks don't pass out from lack of oxygen while you are banging on about fourth quarter sales goals.
If you want to know if the CO2 in your conference room is 16 or 17 parts per million, this semiconductor simply cannot provide that kind of resolution. You may have heard of MOSFETS. Metal Oxide Something Field Effect Transistor. Great idea. Less material. Lower cost. Instead of physical P-N junctions inside the transistor, the FET family generates fields in the air near the semiconductor that interact. IIRC MOSFETs started showing up in consumer amplifier circuits in the mid to late 1990s. I don't recall which are the P and N dopes in the xyzFET that changes its characteristics in the presence of CO2, or rather diminished partial pressure of oxygen because of (most of the time) increased CO2.
The bad news is some ahem, person, somewhere came up with some math to use this property to estimate VOC like formaldehyde. If you are looking at a consumer grade AQ monitor that is supposed to monitor VOCs and it costs less than $1000, someone is selling you an xyzFET and some software. When you get it home, spoof it with a gentle kiss from a CO2 fire extinguisher and see if it doesn't detect fatal levels of formaldehyde in your home. You're welcome.
To find out (in a definitive way) whether or not VOCs are a problem in your home, you have two options. One is to send away for an air flask. Follow the directions with the package, send the flask back to the supplier. They will run your air sample through a gas chromatograph machine. You get a report telling you what they found. The higher resolution you want, the more money you pay. The other option is to rent a handheld VOC detector from a local company that most likely has the words "fire and safety" in the business name. Garden State Fire and Safety. New Jersey Fire and Safety. I made these up. Keystone Fire and Safety. Something like that. One of those will have some handheld meters for rent. Retail value/ credit card deposit in the $3-5k range. Half or full day rentals local to me, with a discount for a week long rental. With one of these you can wander around your house looking to see if you have problem areas, without the accuracy of gas chromatography.
4 year old daughter with congestion might be Air Quality, could be hanging out with enough other 4 year olds that there is a constant turn over in garden variety URIs, as above cold be allergies. Can be chemicals in products, the wife and got the last of our wall to wall carpet out this summer.
Divide and conquer I say.
One thing can (should be able to) do is find a local fancy-schmancy air quality monitoring station. I dunno how thick on the ground beta attenuation monitors are back east, a decent BAM unit to count particles will set somebody back $30k, but if there is one near you book mark it in your browser and keep an eye on it. What are the local (outdoor ambient) particle counts when your daughter is having a bad day?
I say this because of your population density. You got a lot of people in a pretty small area in pretty much all of NJ. If Manhattan had the same population density as Alaska there would be three people living in a log cabin at Battery Park (Anchorage) 1 person in a tent in Central Park (Fairbanks) and 2 others folks wandering around the rest of the island going to where ever the fish are running or the game is grazing. I am not sure how many orders of magnitude that is, but you got a lot of people near you burping and passing gas and running their BBQ grills and driving their cars. I am confident you got some particles to count in your outdoor ambient air.
Second is indoor ambient.
You might as well go read up on this thread: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/homemade-air-filters-good-indoor-air-quality-cheap.188986/
and then come back here so I can comment on what I already said without having to type the whole thing twice.
At this point I have two battles.
One is particles generated inside my house, from the geriatric cat, the wood stove, the now absent wall to wall carpet. For those, assuming good/excellent outdoor air quality, I run a single 20" box fan with a single MERV 13 (20x20) furnace filter duct taped neatly to the intake side of the box fan. I replace that filter about every six months. I used a IR thermometer to check the motor housing temperature on the box fan daily for about I dunno, my eyes were bleeding, maybe four months or so. The fan motor was constantly either the same temp as ambient air, or +1dF. I just couldn't monitor it any more after a few months. There are a few days in spring pollen season where we close the windows to let the single filter/ single fan keep the pollen inside the house knocked back, and then reopen the windows once the pollen is done.
Outdoor particles is my other battle. BRB. My nearest BAM counter is the one labelled "NCore" (broken link removed to https://dec.alaska.gov/air/air-monitoring/alaska-air-quality-real-time-data) . Right this moment the controlling variable for air quality is ( no surprise) PM2.5 wiht a measurement of 8 micrograms per cubic meter which converts to a useless AQ "Index" that means my air quality is "good". I dunno how many bureacrats went to how many meetings to come up with the dang air quality "index" but I want my tax dollars returned with interest. The index my opinion, is a stupid pointless useless distraction from good science and useful data. Micrograms per cubic meter is good science. Indexes are for people who wager on the stock market or hire dowsers to locate well water.
So anyway, outdoor particles. In the last 12 months my outdoor ambient PM2.5 count (in mcg/m3) has varied from 0-477. With outdoor counts from 0-125 mcg/m3 my single filter/ single fan array, fan speed set to low, can keep my indoor PM2.5 counts in the 0-6 range.
I'll get around to the V portion of HVAC systems next, at my house all I have for V is a courtesy fan in each of the two bathrooms, and when it is running my woodstove takes combustion air from the living space. In summertime wild fire season where the particle counts get really out of hand I can count on the EPA to be running radio ads about how important wintertime air quality is while not giving any EPA $ to hire smoke jumpers and I want the money spent on summertime radio advertisements refunded to me as well. Sorry, sore subject here. When the outdoor particle counts exceed 125 mcg/m3 I got to dust off some more sophisticated filtration to keep my indoor air quality good. I have a couple cubes that can take 3 20x20 furnace filters (MERV 13 if you recall) and a monster cabinet that holds six 20x20 filters with a 20 inch fan on that one too. When the air gets bad enough (~300 mcg/m3 and up) I will have all of those running full blast to keep my home in the "moderate" or "unhealthy for sensitive groups" ranges.
K. So the problem with ventilation ductwork it is hard to clean poorly and likely impossible to clean well at the residential scale. I have seen commercial scale air handlers with a man door, where you can walk in there with a dust rag and get busy; but the final duct work on those, for individual rooms, not cleanable. If you got crap in your ductwork my advice is to sell your house. Go buy some place with steam radiators and opable windows.
I shall now approach the electric third rail, VOCs, with a well insulated battle axe. If you want to measure VOCs accurately you are screwed. There is a field effect transistor that actually changes its field behavior in the presence of carbon dioxide. If you have a good sized conference room, this is handy. Empty room, the HVAC system just keeps up with temperature. If 200 people show up in the next ten minutes to hear your inspirational sales speech they will be blowing off CO2, a sophisticated HVAC system can detect the CO2 and start the ventilation fans so folks don't pass out from lack of oxygen while you are banging on about fourth quarter sales goals.
If you want to know if the CO2 in your conference room is 16 or 17 parts per million, this semiconductor simply cannot provide that kind of resolution. You may have heard of MOSFETS. Metal Oxide Something Field Effect Transistor. Great idea. Less material. Lower cost. Instead of physical P-N junctions inside the transistor, the FET family generates fields in the air near the semiconductor that interact. IIRC MOSFETs started showing up in consumer amplifier circuits in the mid to late 1990s. I don't recall which are the P and N dopes in the xyzFET that changes its characteristics in the presence of CO2, or rather diminished partial pressure of oxygen because of (most of the time) increased CO2.
The bad news is some ahem, person, somewhere came up with some math to use this property to estimate VOC like formaldehyde. If you are looking at a consumer grade AQ monitor that is supposed to monitor VOCs and it costs less than $1000, someone is selling you an xyzFET and some software. When you get it home, spoof it with a gentle kiss from a CO2 fire extinguisher and see if it doesn't detect fatal levels of formaldehyde in your home. You're welcome.
To find out (in a definitive way) whether or not VOCs are a problem in your home, you have two options. One is to send away for an air flask. Follow the directions with the package, send the flask back to the supplier. They will run your air sample through a gas chromatograph machine. You get a report telling you what they found. The higher resolution you want, the more money you pay. The other option is to rent a handheld VOC detector from a local company that most likely has the words "fire and safety" in the business name. Garden State Fire and Safety. New Jersey Fire and Safety. I made these up. Keystone Fire and Safety. Something like that. One of those will have some handheld meters for rent. Retail value/ credit card deposit in the $3-5k range. Half or full day rentals local to me, with a discount for a week long rental. With one of these you can wander around your house looking to see if you have problem areas, without the accuracy of gas chromatography.
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Wow, impressive treatise, Poindexter. I learned a lot from that.
BTW... "Something" = "Semiconductor", and the name of the boat was "S.S. Minnow", James.
BTW... "Something" = "Semiconductor", and the name of the boat was "S.S. Minnow", James.
Yep carpet does collect a load of crap.i ripped all my carpets out and put pine flooring in bedrooms and ash in the livingroom.floors are colder but area rugs take care of that.
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