Wood stove clearance to exposed overhead beam

[salad]

Hey gang, I'm very new here, so I apologize for the thread title: I'm not sure how else to phrase it in so few words.

I am on a mission to put a wood stove into my 150 year old farm house. Its main source of heat is currently an outdoor wood boiler (one of those fabulous smoke dragon pieces of junk) and performance is on the bad side of dreadful. Budget is an issue so I'm looking at used stoves. This obviously limits my selection.

I've found a Pacific Energy Vista that I really like that has great clearances. Only trouble I've determined is the ceiling! The manual lists the minimum ceiling height as 84" (7'), but ALSO says there must be 58" above a 28" tall stove... funny math, that. Some inspector resource stuff I've read says that 82" is acceptable. The actual ceiling in my living room is slightly over 90".

Doesn't sound like an issue, right? Well one of the previous owners decided to install these obnoxious 6"x9" wood beams laterally across the ceiling, spaced 4' apart (just enough for a sheet of drywall!). The bottom of these beams is unfortunately 83" from the floor. I don't believe they were originally intended to be structural, but until I figure out how and where this house is sagging I'm reluctant to remove them.

So I'm stuck with an absolute clearance of 83", 1" below the "ceiling" minimum specified by Pacific Energy.
Based on where I want to place the stove, the unit would not be directly underneath one. Measured from the furthest corner of the stove, the ceiling exceeds the largest of the minimum required clearances.

What do you guys think? One half of me says "there's lots of air space, ceiling is fine", the other half says "it's combustible and maybe within the clearance". I can't find any information on how far out the "ceiling" clearance needs to extend... it's hard enough to find ceiling information in the first place. I don't want to waste too much of my local WETT/building inspector guy's time with questions, so thank you very much for stopping in and at least reading!

 

[jwfirebird]

I wouldn't get into moving stuff, if you haven't bought anything yet, would add a lot of money. just get one that fits your space
would check lowes summer heat or home depot Englander, pretty good clearances and can buy new for almost the same as the used stoves were around here at least. they seem like a well built stove for good value. pretty simple but smart features which is good in something you want to last

 

[Doc C]

Hey gang, I'm very new here, so I apologize for the thread title: I'm not sure how else to phrase it in so few words.

I am on a mission to put a wood stove into my 150 year old farm house. Its main source of heat is currently an outdoor wood boiler (one of those fabulous smoke dragon pieces of junk) and performance is on the bad side of dreadful. Budget is an issue so I'm looking at used stoves. This obviously limits my selection.

I've found a Pacific Energy Vista that I really like that has great clearances. Only trouble I've determined is the ceiling! The manual lists the minimum ceiling height as 84" (7'), but ALSO says there must be 58" above a 28" tall stove... funny math, that. Some inspector resource stuff I've read says that 82" is acceptable. The actual ceiling in my living room is slightly over 90".

Doesn't sound like an issue, right? Well one of the previous owners decided to install these obnoxious 6"x9" wood beams laterally across the ceiling, spaced 4' apart (just enough for a sheet of drywall!). The bottom of these beams is unfortunately 83" from the floor. I don't believe they were originally intended to be structural, but until I figure out how and where this house is sagging I'm reluctant to remove them.

So I'm stuck with an absolute clearance of 83", 1" below the "ceiling" minimum specified by Pacific Energy.
Based on where I want to place the stove, the unit would not be directly underneath one. Measured from the furthest corner of the stove, the ceiling exceeds the largest of the minimum required clearances.

What do you guys think? One half of me says "there's lots of air space, ceiling is fine", the other half says "it's combustible and maybe within the clearance". I can't find any information on how far out the "ceiling" clearance needs to extend... it's hard enough to find ceiling information in the first place. I don't want to waste too much of my local WETT/building inspector guy's time with questions, so thank you very much for stopping in and at least reading!

That's a tough one. I can tell you in my area the inspector does not look at clearance above a stove. All long as it's within reason of course. The caveat in my area is that it is on the home owner or installer to install according to the manufacturer.

I really think that if you have to have it inspected in your area that you need to just call the inspector to see if they will allow it.

Also your insurance agent deals with wood stoves all the time and can probably shed some light on the rules in your area.

My suspicion is that it's going to fall back on the manufacturer requirements.....even if they are extremely cautious requirements.

I just don't know if anyone will want to take the liability of installing a stove outside the manufacturer rules.

 

[BeerChemistWhiskey]

Just something I thought of when reading your description. Will the surface below the stove where you are planning to locate be a noncombustable surface?

If you have to build a hearth pad or something to accommodate clearances to the floor you may be pushing up closer to the ceiling than you are planning to

 

[Squisher]

Have you looked at any shielding solutions to reduce clearances? Clearances are simple. You either have them or you don't. IMO, this grey area of 'almost enough clearance' that people get hung up on isn't grey to me at all.

 

[BlankBlankBlank]

Take a picture or two and draw in where the stove goes to make this easier on the posters.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Have you looked at any shielding solutions to reduce clearances? Clearances are simple. You either have them or you don't. IMO, this grey area of 'almost enough clearance' that people get hung up on isn't grey to me at all.

Shielding is your answer.

 

[salad]

Thanks for all the responses! Not bad for my first day here lol

I certainly appreciate the candid answers. I agree that there isn't a grey area with regards to "close" clearances. Trouble is I couldn't find any information on what the upwards clearance actually is! Floor, walls, all that stuff is pretty clear, but the manuals from the stove companies only indicate height immediately above the stove. Hence the reason for my thread here - I don't know what I don't know.

The room's floor is currently carpet over the subfloor. Measurements are taken from the carpet surface. All the stove models I'm considering require only ember protection, not thermal, so I intend to cut back the carpet and put tile or a stove board down. Shouldn't be any height increase really.

Earlier today I got some emails back about stoves I was interested in (wicked deal on a Regency that includes chimney), so I reached out to my municipality's inspector. He mentioned 18" measured horizontally from the stove, so I sent this:

I'm going to assume he'll talk shielding as well.

So far I've only read about examples of wall shielding. In Canada 29 gauge or heavier sheet metal with a 7/8" air gap behind it is acceptable for reducing clearances, allegedly good for reducing the clearance on a ceiling by 50%... sounds a little too good to be true to me. Also, note the diagram showing the area of contention with that beam.

What would you guys do in my situation?

(I did look at stoves with better vertical clearances, all I can find in my price range are very small units that would wind up being a waste of time and money.)

Thanks!

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Thanks for all the responses! Not bad for my first day here lol

I certainly appreciate the candid answers. I agree that there isn't a grey area with regards to "close" clearances. Trouble is I couldn't find any information on what the upwards clearance actually is! Floor, walls, all that stuff is pretty clear, but the manuals from the stove companies only indicate height immediately above the stove. Hence the reason for my thread here - I don't know what I don't know.

The room's floor is currently carpet over the subfloor. Measurements are taken from the carpet surface. All the stove models I'm considering require only ember protection, not thermal, so I intend to cut back the carpet and put tile or a stove board down. Shouldn't be any height increase really.

Earlier today I got some emails back about stoves I was interested in (wicked deal on a Regency that includes chimney), so I reached out to my municipality's inspector. He mentioned 18" measured horizontally from the stove, so I sent this:

View attachment 215870

I'm going to assume he'll talk shielding as well.

So far I've only read about examples of wall shielding. In Canada 29 gauge or heavier sheet metal with a 7/8" air gap behind it is acceptable for reducing clearances, allegedly good for reducing the clearance on a ceiling by 50%... sounds a little too good to be true to me. Also, note the diagram showing the area of contention with that beam.

What would you guys do in my situation?

(I did look at stoves with better vertical clearances, all I can find in my price range are very small units that would wind up being a waste of time and money.)

Thanks!

Sounds like you're making progress. Hopefully someone will chime in regarding ceiling shielding. My stove offers an optional shield specifically to reduce clearances to the ceiling. Keep doing your research and I suspect you'll find your answer. I guess the clearances are designed to minimize pyrolysis as well as provide a margin of error should there be a runaway fire in a damaged stove that has somehow lost it's flue pipe or door.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

The air gap behind, and on top, allows air to move behind the sheet metal, keeping everything cool.

 

[jwfirebird]

had to do a shield in my basement, only thing is its ugly, wouldn't want something like that on the one everyone looks at on the first floor. you have to hang it down for air space too

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

had to do a shield in my basement, only thing is its ugly, wouldn't want something like that on the one everyone looks at on the first floor. you have to hang it down for air space too

It can be painted. Not awesome to look at, maybe, but better than a cold house or burned down house. I saw one on the Houzz website that looked fine.

 

[BlankBlankBlank]

View attachment 215870


What would you guys do in my situation?

(I did look at stoves with better vertical clearances, all I can find in my price range are very small units that would wind up being a waste of time and money.)

Thanks!

You're currently planning for a corner install. Is there a need for this, such as chimney, window, or door locations? I ask because it looks from the drawing (and I understand that the drawing might not be to scale) that you could turn the stove clockwise 45 degrees and slide it down out of the corner. Thus your stove would be at the top of your drawing in the full 90" ceiling height area. Doing so would keep your stove out from under the beam and possibly far enough away from the beam to avoid shielding.

Another option would be to turn the stove counter clockwise 45 degrees and slide it down the left side of the drawing into another 90" ceiling clearance area. This would definitely take care of the clearance issue.

It all depends how important the corner placement is to your overall design.

 

[kennyp2339]

If I'm comprehending this correctly based on your drawing... you have a beam that is installed in the ceiling but in not directly over any portion of the stove? the height is 83" from floor to bottom most part of the beam, but again no part of the beam would be over the stove top (hanging a plumb bob off of beam) If that's the case then no worries and go for the install, also while heavy timber is a combustible if it were me I wouldn't be to worried about it lighting off at that distance.

 

[Doc C]

If I'm comprehending this correctly based on your drawing... you have a beam that is installed in the ceiling but in not directly over any portion of the stove? the height is 83" from floor to bottom most part of the beam, but again no part of the beam would be over the stove top (hanging a plumb bob off of beam) If that's the case then no worries and go for the install, also while heavy timber is a combustible if it were me I wouldn't be to worried about it lighting off at that distance.

Definately verify that it's not one of the faux Styrofoam beams. Also I have done dimensional lumber wrapped with hardwood for decorative beams before that would not be as fire resistant as a solid beam.

Also I'm wondering if a guy needs to measure diagonally from the stove to the beam in this case or does just not being directly above the stove make it outside the requirements for clearance?

 

[Squisher]

Ceiling shielding is supposed to extend past the stove until the required clearance is reached by measuring at an angle. So in this case I would measure at an angle off the top of the stove and see if the beam is within 58"s of the stove top. Measured from the closest point of stovetop to the beam.

The manufacturers instructions are certified clearances and are what are meant to be followed. Up here atleast they 'override' code. so disregard any other anecdotal 'clearances' you find poking around the Interwebs.

Don't be thrown off on the 7' vs the height measurement plus the 58"s. 7' ceilings is the minimum height ceiling room that this stove can be put in. 58"s is the clearance required off the top of the stove irregardless.

 

[Squisher]

ceiling shielding gives the reductions you mentioned. The only real difference is needing a 3" spacing from adjacent walls. And even though you install a shield which gives a 50% reduction the 7' min ceiling height requirement isn't negated. So it's not like you can put it in a crawl space if you liked.

The dramatic clearance reductions offered by properly constructed shielding is such because they work so effectively. The convective air movement that comes with the proper spacing aids greatly in keeping the combustible surfaces behind the shielding cooled.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

ceiling shielding gives the reductions you mentioned. The only real difference is needing a 3" spacing from adjacent walls. And even though you install a shield which gives a 50% reduction the 7' min ceiling height requirement isn't negated. So it's not like you can put it in a crawl space if you liked.

The dramatic clearance reductions offered by properly constructed shielding is such because they work so effectively. The convective air movement that comes with the proper spacing aids greatly in keeping the combustible surfaces behind the shielding cooled.

That's an excellent post, Squisher. Lots of clear and useful information.

 

[salad]

You're currently planning for a corner install. Is there a need for this, such as chimney, window, or door locations? I ask because it looks from the drawing (and I understand that the drawing might not be to scale) that you could turn the stove clockwise 45 degrees and slide it down out of the corner. Thus your stove would be at the top of your drawing in the full 90" ceiling height area. Doing so would keep your stove out from under the beam and possibly far enough away from the beam to avoid shielding.

Another option would be to turn the stove counter clockwise 45 degrees and slide it down the left side of the drawing into another 90" ceiling clearance area. This would definitely take care of the clearance issue.

It all depends how important the corner placement is to your overall design.

Yeah, the west wall has a bunch of crap on the outside that prevents the chimney from going there, similar story with much of the north wall. I'd really prefer to do an interior chimney but there's nowhere on the second floor in that part of the house that can afford to give up that much space.

But anyway, the beams are installed with 4' between them, it's not just this corner. I can pick any angle and place the stove somewhere satisfactory where there won't be one directly overhead any part of it, as long as the stove is less than like 3' wide.

If I'm comprehending this correctly based on your drawing... you have a beam that is installed in the ceiling but in not directly over any portion of the stove? the height is 83" from floor to bottom most part of the beam, but again no part of the beam would be over the stove top (hanging a plumb bob off of beam) If that's the case then no worries and go for the install, also while heavy timber is a combustible if it were me I wouldn't be to worried about it lighting off at that distance.

Correct. I'm also skeptical that it would magically ignite, but without a signoff from an inspector and my insurance it's a non-starter as Squisher hinted in an earlier post.

Definately verify that it's not one of the faux Styrofoam beams. Also I have done dimensional lumber wrapped with hardwood for decorative beams before that would not be as fire resistant as a solid beam.

Oh they're most certainly wood. I believe they're pine. Some of them have split and warped. The one end is inserted into the wall somehow, the other end is nailed against a bunch of 2x8s that sit on other posts. The only foam in this house is the foil-clad stuff they wrapped the exterior with, trapping moisture in and keeping cellphone signals out! lol

Also I'm wondering if a guy needs to measure diagonally from the stove to the beam in this case or does just not being directly above the stove make it outside the requirements for clearance?

Ceiling shielding is supposed to extend past the stove until the required clearance is reached by measuring at an angle. So in this case I would measure at an angle off the top of the stove and see if the beam is within 58"s of the stove top. Measured from the closest point of stovetop to the beam.

The manufacturers instructions are certified clearances and are what are meant to be followed. Up here atleast they 'override' code. so disregard any other anecdotal 'clearances' you find poking around the Interwebs.

Don't be thrown off on the 7' vs the height measurement plus the 58"s. 7' ceilings is the minimum height ceiling room that this stove can be put in. 58"s is the clearance required off the top of the stove irregardless.

AHHA! This is the kind of thing I was looking for! Since the documentation doesn't give anything other than immediately above the stove, what you guys are suggesting makes sense.

But something still isn't clear to me... Would you consider the 83" beam part of the "ceiling"? Or say the ceiling is 90" but there's a combustible at 83" - so therefore the 58" clearance needs to be worked around, but otherwise the room is tall enough?

It sounds like you are suggesting that if I can wrangle it so that the beam isn't within that distance measured in a straight line from the stove it should be okay.

Now considering that, what about the walls? 8" to 10" off of a side and as low as 3" from a corner are what I'm seeing for clearance to a wall when double-walled pipe is used.

ceiling shielding gives the reductions you mentioned. The only real difference is needing a 3" spacing from adjacent walls. And even though you install a shield which gives a 50% reduction the 7' min ceiling height requirement isn't negated. So it's not like you can put it in a crawl space if you liked.

The dramatic clearance reductions offered by properly constructed shielding is such because they work so effectively. The convective air movement that comes with the proper spacing aids greatly in keeping the combustible surfaces behind the shielding cooled.

Thanks! Makes sense. So am I correct in interpreting that there is a difference between "ceiling height" and "overhead combustibles", then?

I just noticed your location is listed as BC. Not sure how much difference there is between your area and Ontario but at least the major guidelines are the same!



(In case any of you guys are thinking I'm trying to waste your time or find a way to jury rig this, the point of this thread is to ultimately decide if I can proceed with this project in the time frame and budget that I need. We're supposed to host Christmas and I kind of need to get the living room back together, lol. I'm not opposed to installing shielding, etc, but if what is required is too complicated and expensive then I'll probably shelve the stove idea for another time and throw money at insulation and hydronic stuff.)

 

[Doc C]

Yeah, the west wall has a bunch of crap on the outside that prevents the chimney from going there, similar story with much of the north wall. I'd really prefer to do an interior chimney but there's nowhere on the second floor in that part of the house that can afford to give up that much space.

But anyway, the beams are installed with 4' between them, it's not just this corner. I can pick any angle and place the stove somewhere satisfactory where there won't be one directly overhead any part of it, as long as the stove is less than like 3' wide.



Correct. I'm also skeptical that it would magically ignite, but without a signoff from an inspector and my insurance it's a non-starter as Squisher hinted in an earlier post.



Oh they're most certainly wood. I believe they're pine. Some of them have split and warped. The one end is inserted into the wall somehow, the other end is nailed against a bunch of 2x8s that sit on other posts. The only foam in this house is the foil-clad stuff they wrapped the exterior with, trapping moisture in and keeping cellphone signals out! lol





AHHA! This is the kind of thing I was looking for! Since the documentation doesn't give anything other than immediately above the stove, what you guys are suggesting makes sense.

But something still isn't clear to me... Would you consider the 83" beam part of the "ceiling"? Or say the ceiling is 90" but there's a combustible at 83" - so therefore the 58" clearance needs to be worked around, but otherwise the room is tall enough?

It sounds like you are suggesting that if I can wrangle it so that the beam isn't within that distance measured in a straight line from the stove it should be okay.

Now considering that, what about the walls? 8" to 10" off of a side and as low as 3" from a corner are what I'm seeing for clearance to a wall when double-walled pipe is used.



Thanks! Makes sense. So am I correct in interpreting that there is a difference between "ceiling height" and "overhead combustibles", then?

I just noticed your location is listed as BC. Not sure how much difference there is between your area and Ontario but at least the major guidelines are the same!



(In case any of you guys are thinking I'm trying to waste your time or find a way to jury rig this, the point of this thread is to ultimately decide if I can proceed with this project in the time frame and budget that I need. We're supposed to host Christmas and I kind of need to get the living room back together, lol. I'm not opposed to installing shielding, etc, but if what is required is too complicated and expensive then I'll probably shelve the stove idea for another time and throw money at insulation and hydronic stuff.)

Shielding can be very simple it's just up to you to decide how you want it to look. In alot places it's as simple as a non combustible service with a 1" air gap behind it.

Don't get hung up on the shielding aspect of things.

And I think your over thinking the ceiling issue. It's okay we all do it!

The ceiling is the ceiling. If it's above the 7' required then you are good. After that you just need to make sure that combustible stuff is outside the clearance requirments or its shielded.

Also depending on your subfloor you might have some options as well.

In my house I have over 2" of subfloor. If I had to could remove both layers, strengthen my joists there and use a thinner subfloor in order to gain the 1" I was missing.

 

[Squisher]

Hold the boat a second here. I've been doing a bit of digging. The actual ulc test booth is 82"s. Just under in fact. So to certify to ulcs627 (which it did) that stove passed at 82"s. So the only reason it requires 84"is because PE has stated this in the manual.

You may find if you are slightly close that no one notices it. Because of the height of the test enclosure some may just measure 82"s. Depends on how much due diligence they do/have. Depending they may not even measure. Lol. Maybe worth a chance with shielding as a back up plan. Or you could try to contact pe outlining the points above and see if they would send you a letter/e-mail. This also would be something to ask your local inspector how he sees things the AHJ(authority having jurisdiction) has the final and ultimate say.

Shielding can be quite easy and inexpensive. 26ga galv cut and hemmed from a local hvac to your measurements. Copper brass plumbing unions are readily available in 1" for spacers and hang it up.

No one likes the shielding that I had to do in my house (except me. Lol) but it sounds like yours would be a lot less intrusive if necessary at all.

 

[salad]

Really? The test standard is only 82"? That's hilarious! Thanks for digging that up.

The Regency I'd prefer to get (largely because the owner is including the entire pipe and chimney assembly) doesn't have anything other than ceiling height in the manual. 1990 medium R3/R9. Same 7' ceiling reference but nothing about clearance to combustibles in the vertical plane other than the floor pad. I'd like to go see it tomorrow actually, I'll drop Regency a line and see what they can tell me. Unfortunately no response from my local inspector yet (very busy guy, he's the township CBO)

So let me now pose this question:

*IF* I need to shield that beam, how extensive do you think would be prudent? Would something spaced 1" out around the beam itself on sides facing the stove likely do the trick/make you comfortable? I'm pretty sure I have enough steel for that sitting in the garage.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

That's a tough one. I can tell you in my area the inspector does not look at clearance above a stove. All long as it's within reason of course. The caveat in my area is that it is on the home owner or installer to install according to the manufacturer.

I really think that if you have to have it inspected in your area that you need to just call the inspector to see if they will allow it.

Also your insurance agent deals with wood stoves all the time and can probably shed some light on the rules in your area.

My suspicion is that it's going to fall back on the manufacturer requirements.....even if they are extremely cautious requirements.

I just don't know if anyone will want to take the liability of installing a stove outside the manufacturer rules.

This is solid advice. There is sometimes a large difference between what is sensible and safe, and what code or insurance companies require. For the sake of your insurance coverage, you need to meet their requirements, and if there is ever a claim, they will look for every possible loophole. If you have not followed the manufacturer's requirements to the letter, that just might be their loophole.


As for shielding.... It doesn't have to be ugly. Painted in a color of your choice, or jeweled (engine turned) stainless steel, or hammered copper. There are lots of options. Just figure out the motif of your room and go for it.

 

[Squisher]

*IF* I need to shield that beam, how extensive do you think would be prudent? Would something spaced 1" out around the beam itself on sides facing the stove likely do the trick/make you comfortable? I'm pretty sure I have enough steel for that sitting in the garage.

All I can really say without seeing it or being there is I would shield every part of it that was within the manufacturers stated clearances effectively.

If you call around and get the right guy I believe you may get something in writing to honour a shorter clearance. Unless a manufacturer states otherwise, as in if their manual makes no reference to ceiling clearance 82" is the default for a stove certified to ulc s627

It's goofy that some/a lot? Of manufacturers state greater clearances than they passed testing at. I've heard that some are waking up to this and getting more thorough testing on the top and coming out with some greater reduced stove clearances.

 

[salad]

This is solid advice. There is sometimes a large difference between what is sensible and safe, and what code or insurance companies require. For the sake of your insurance coverage, you need to meet their requirements, and if there is ever a claim, they will look for every possible loophole. If you have not followed the manufacturer's requirements to the letter, that just might be their loophole.

An excellent point. I will run it by them as well.

Same BlueRidgeMark from CF? I haven't had much time to hang out in forums for a few months.

All I can really say without seeing it or being there is I would shield every part of it that was within the manufacturers stated clearances effectively.

If you call around and get the right guy I believe you may get something in writing to honour a shorter clearance. Unless a manufacturer states otherwise, as in if their manual makes no reference to ceiling clearance 82" is the default for a stove certified to ulc s627

It's goofy that some/a lot? Of manufacturers state greater clearances than they passed testing at. I've heard that some are waking up to this and getting more thorough testing on the top and coming out with some greater reduced stove clearances.

Interesting!

The impression I'm getting is that the beam is to regarded as a combustible. My big worry was that it would lower what was considered the ceiling because it creates air pockets. Like you said you can't stuff them into a crawlspace. The fact is that this room does NOT have free movement of air up to 84" from the floor. Shielding a part of that beam is not a big deal as long as I don't get "this room is too short"

Still waiting on the local inspector. I'll call my insurance agent and see if she has anything to chip in. Based on everybody's feedback here I'm going to go see the stove.

Thanks!