wood stove insert down draft smoking question

[wood_insert_regency]

Hi,

Ok.. I have a new Regency i2400 (medium sized wood stove insert) in my fireplace on the 1st floor of my 2 story house.

The chimney is external to the house -- goes along the side of the 1st and 2nd stories and ends a little above our peaked roof and was newly capped/screened when the insert was installed.

The chimney is lined with a 6 inch flexible steel liner tube which is directly connected to the stove.

The first time I fired up the stove it did smoke a bit at first, but I did this on Dec. 7th (when it was still not too cold in Maryland -- where I live). So after watching the smoke roll around in the firebox for perhaps a minute or so, it then cleared as a decent upward draw / draft established itself and then kept going. Then later on I added another split or 2 and had a decent fire going as you can see in the attached pic of the stove.

Ok, now it's Feb. and a few days ago (at night when it was more cold -- perhaps 20's or 30's), I tried building and starting a fire, but that time again the smoke rolled around at first in the firebox a bit, but the downdraft from the cold air in the chimney was so strong that after a minute the smoke was actually being forced out the 2 vertical intake vents that are on either side of the stove. It's really kinda distressing to watch smoke streaming out of those vents into the surrounding room and I wasn't sure what to do -- fortunately the newspaper I'd lit soon went out (perhaps due to the cold) and so the smoking stopped. But boy it's a pain to have to then open all your windows and fan out your smoky house.

Perhaps I had built that fire a bit poorly... I'm not exactly sure since this is my first time with a wood stove insert. With the fire that smoked I had 4 or 5 balled up pieces of newspaper under some pieces of fatwood and a smaller split and some bark pieces (for kindling) placed across the fatwood. I think part of the problem was that the burning newspaper balls (which generated most of the smoke) had flames that were mainly only hitting the split on top -- so of course it was not enough to catch it on fire and that made a bit more smoke to add to the newspaper smoke... next time I was just going to try to burn a small fatwood stack as explained below:

Anyway, ok I read on here some of the techniques to try to deal with a cold down draft in a cold chimney:

* tried first opening the door of the stove for like 40 min. or so to let some warm air up the chimney to at least reduce the total volume of cold air in the chimney

* opened a nearby sliding door to the outside to let in air to prevent negative pressure in the house

* tried lighting a stick of fatwood and held it in my hand to wave near the opening in the top of the stove that leads to the chimney to establish a small upward draft -- when doing that it worked for a while but actually after a little while the downdraft even blew out the stick of fatwood (perhaps I held it a bit too far up and the slight downward breeze was a bit too strong). I have a friend who uses a "torch" of rolled up newspaper -- waves it up in his flue and then lights his fire with that... maybe newspaper would work better, but it seemed like it was the newspaper that was mainly generating the smoke the last time the smoke came out my vents, so I'm not sure I should use paper.

* I've also considered maybe trying supercedars since that should not smoke as much...

So, I'm not really sure about what to do to be able to start a fire fast enough that I can avoid some smoke being forced out my vents before a fire can catch enough to establish an updraft. If it gets fairly cold outside is it not possible to avoid a fair amount of smoke being forced out your intake vents??

I was going to just try lighting a little pile of fatwood sitting in the middle of the firebox hoping that would smoke less than the newspaper from before and that it might be enough to warm it up and create a little updraft so that I could then add some larger kindling... and then later add a real split piece. Is that a good approach?

I was even considering maybe first lighting the fatwood and then trying to blow a warm hairdryer up the chimney for a bit to see if that might help.

Well I'd appreciate any advice about how to get a fire going quickly enough to establish an updraft fast enough so that smoke doesn't have to be forced out into the room -- or at least maybe only a small amount of it, if that is unavoidable on a cold day.

Thanks for any help / ideas!!

--Matt

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

once its going it works fine?

 

[wood_insert_regency]

once its going it works fine?

Well, I have a relatively small sample space of fires, ehe... 1 successful and 1 not successful .

I'm slightly afraid to try again 'cause I did not enjoy the ordeal of the smoke spewing from the vents...

But I know soon I just gotta give it another shot...

I actually just called my installer and he said to use "fire starter blocks" which he says you can find at local stores like wal-mart or home depot... maybe even safeway I guess. He said not to use paper, perhaps crack the door a little, and maybe start a ceiling fan in the next-door room to reverse fan the air downwards.

Maybe all that might help?

Anyway perhaps I'll go try and find some of those fire starter blocks...

But yes, that first fire, once it got going, it did work fine... but as I'd said it did smoke a bit first... but the first time when it worked, even tho' it smoked a little *inside* the firebox, none of it really leaked out the vents.

It was the 2nd fire when it was cold outside that the smoke got forced out... and for that fire I stopped trying after the newspaper burned out...

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

are you sure thats not new stove burnoff??

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

the stove will cure untill its ran at 400* for a extended period of time. It will smoke alot.

 

[Shane]

Sounds like you had an inversion. The next time you start your fire take a piece of newspaper and roll it tightly into a torch like apparatus then place it up into the flue to reverse the draw. A butane torch works well for this also. Another possibility is negative pressure. If you are having a negative pressure issue you need to try a couple of things. First make sure that no bathroom or kitchen exhaust fans are operating and that the dryer is not operating when your starting the stove. This is both upstairs and downstairs. Often times this is enough to reverse the pressure and get the chimney drawing again. Another trick is to crack a door or window adjacent to the unit. Worst case scenario you will have to install a make up air vent. But this is highly uncommon.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

he has a tall chimney and has cracked a window to neturalize the pressure. If he has only tried twice,and is getting smoke out of the vent im betting its paint.

 

[wood_insert_regency]

Sounds like you had an inversion. The next time you start your fire take a piece of newspaper and roll it tightly into a torch like apparatus then place it up into the flue to reverse the draw. A butane torch works well for this also. Another possibility is negative pressure. If you are having a negative pressure issue you need to try a couple of things. First make sure that no bathroom or kitchen exhaust fans are operating and that the dryer is not operating when your starting the stove. This is both upstairs and downstairs. Often times this is enough to reverse the pressure and get the chimney drawing again. Another trick is to crack a door or window adjacent to the unit. Worst case scenario you will have to install a make up air vent. But this is highly uncommon.

Yes basically it is a bit of a downdraft I think when it gets cold outside...

Well I guess I didn't really try actually lighting a significant fire yet since trying having the nearby sliding-glass door to the outside open... But when I had the first successful fire I didn't open any doors or windows at all that time.

All I'd done at the start of my "almost" 3rd fire was try holding a burning stick of fatwood somewhat like the newspaper torch trick... but when the fatwood got blown out by the downward breeze I didn't feel like lighting my kindling at that point... eheh.

Mainly I think the issue is the cold air and not much negative pressure made by other house vents... at the time I was trying no house vent fans were blowing.

Basically when you open the stove door when it is cold outside and put your hand near the flue you can feel the cold air spilling down... So yeah an inversion to some degree.

I kinda don't want to use the rolled-up newspaper 'cause it may leave particles up over the baffle, etc.

I was considering the hairdryer approach perhaps...

But I may just try lighting some of those fire-starter blocks and see what happens...

I agree that my stove can't possily be fully paint cured after only 1 fire and I suppose I can see how that might lead to a few smoky fires, but it does seem clear that the main issue is dealing with the tower of cold air in the chimney in an effective way...

Thanks for all the ideas, and if anybody has anything else to add, I'm ready to listen!

 

[wood_insert_regency]

are you sure thats not new stove burnoff??

pretty sure it was not 'cause when it was smoking really bad it was really mainly just my newspaper which was burning under the kindling to generate that smoke... not nearly hot enough to really make anything else generate much smoke at that point...


But yeah, perhaps when / if I get some really good fires going there may be a little extra "paint smoke" at that point...

Even after my first fire which went fairly nicely I didn't recall smelling anything much like any paint exhaust...

But thank you very much for the idea!

 

[jabush]

Is your chimney insulated?
I have an exterior chimney as well..lined and insulated. I occasionally have a down draft condition when I open the stove and I get leary of smoking up the place. I use the "rolled up newspaper" routine...loosely rolled, folded in half with the end twisted. I light one end off and hold it in the back of the stove up near the stove collar. Now..newspaper does smoke, but it also flares up real fast and puts a lot of heat on the flu pipe, which should reverse the air flow and start the draft. I use this routine every time I start a fire and it works every time.
If your chimney is not insulated it will make a difference when it's cold. Prior to having my chimney lined and insulated I had a constant downdraft condition.

 

[ozarkjeep]

Your installer is right, if it isnt paint burning off ( which will smell bad, you will know its not paper smell)

I buy those smaller slightly smaller than brick sized fire starter logs at wally workd, about $1.47 for like 6 of them, I break them in quarters, and use a couple of pieces between some small splits in the back of the insert.

they dont smoke much, and I place mine in the back because that is directly under the flu connection, so the heat goes straight up.

I tried newspaper, and its doable, but NOT ideal to say the least, ive had much better success with the wax/sawdust-starter logs, and small dry kindling, keep the door cracked and the air intake wide open until youve got a log cabin type stack of progressivly larger wood flaming well.

its a learning curve, each stove, and even each install is differerent.

learn it, and be happy.

 

[wood_insert_regency]

Is your chimney insulated?
I have an exterior chimney as well..lined and insulated. I occasionally have a down draft condition when I open the stove and I get leary of smoking up the place. I use the "rolled up newspaper" routine...loosely rolled, folded in half with the end twisted. I light one end off and hold it in the back of the stove up near the stove collar. Now..newspaper does smoke, but it also flares up real fast and puts a lot of heat on the flu pipe, which should reverse the air flow and start the draft. I use this routine every time I start a fire and it works every time.
If your chimney is not insulated it will make a difference when it's cold. Prior to having my chimney lined and insulated I had a constant downdraft condition.

My chimney does have a flexible 6-inch lining tube, but errr I doubt it is insulated... But now that the stove and lining is all in place it would seem maybe it's a bit late to have it insulated??

In my stove the (permanently open) flue opening is at the front of the stove which goes up to a slanted baffle plate above the firebox. In my case, if I used the newspaper torch, I think I'd want to hold the lit paper a bit up the flue... at least intuitively that seems to make sense... I don't think holding it in back would do much in my stove since the roof of the stove has firebrick on it... up the flue in the front seems to make more sense for my setup.

Now that I think about it, it seems kinda stupid that Regency put the flue opening at the front of the stove -- right near the door since obviously when you open the door the rising gases are right there... I know they did it to produce "air washing" of the glass when you get a really good blaze going, but ummm I don't know if it's worth it... seems like it might have been alot more logical to put the flue connection at the back...

In my stove the roof is slanted upward as you go from back to the front of the stove... so the idea is the exhaust gases rise, hit the roof, roll forward along the firebrick roof (where they encounter the re-burning air intake tube jets) and then goes up the flue-slot which is toward the front of the roof and only a couple inches set back from the glass door. Seems like maybe a bit of a risky setup, but well, Regency seemed like a good brand at the time.

I will most likely go hunt for some of those "fire starter blocks" as my installer said...

thanks for your thoughts!

 

[begreen]

Search your neighborhood stores for SuperCedars. Or contact Thomas for a free sample. They're the best.

edit: there are lots of threads on the forum about these great products. Here's one:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/3295/

If interested email Thomas at: [email protected]

 

[damien]

I agree with begreen, I had this problem w/ a customer that bought a brand new insert, all you have to do is buy the small firestarters from Wallmart about 10 bucks or so for a case. Take the starter and break off a chunk the size of a shooter marble and light it, close the door w/ no wood, air intake all the way open and let it burn out( about ten minuites). You should now have established a good draft. Light your wood the way you normally do, or use another little chunk to get it started. The other route like so many here, is to start youre stove and dont let it go out until spring.

 

[wood_insert_regency]

I agree with begreen, I had this problem w/ a customer that bought a brand new insert, all you have to do is buy the small firestarters from Wallmart about 10 bucks or so for a case. Take the starter and break off a chunk the size of a shooter marble and light it, close the door w/ no wood, air intake all the way open and let it burn out( about ten minuites). You should now have established a good draft. Light your wood the way you normally do, or use another little chunk to get it started. The other route like so many here, is to start youre stove and dont let it go out until spring.

Thanks for the idea! Yeah at Safeway tonight I bought a 4-pack of "StarterLogg fire starters" made by Conros Corporation. They are roughly brick-shaped and 2 stacked together are about the thickness of a regular brick.. lengthwise they are about 4/5 the length of a brick. It sounds like this is probably the type of firestarter you are talking about. I hope that a marble-sized piece is enough to overcome a downdraft -- I guess in really cold weather I could use a bigger piece.

Anyway I will give this a try soon... thanks again!

All thoughts on how to overcome downdrafts due to very cold weather are welcome!

--Matt

p.s.

Here is the company's website which I just found:

(broken link removed to http://www.conros.com/html/LOGG/starterlogg.html)

 

[velvetfoot]

If I put my hand by the flow and feel cool air I crack open a side window until I don't feel cool air then use the newspaper then light fire starter piece in wood then close window.

 

[webbie]

don't get confused here - you have flow reversal. The only real solution is to:
1. Notice if the chimney is drafting upward before you start. do this by opening the door and if the air is cold inside the stove, it has reversed...or, simply hold a match or a lighter up near the shelf (baffle) and see which way it goes.
2. If it has reversed, shove a small piece of balled up newspaper HIGH UP in the stove - as close to the flue outlet as possible. Light it and close the door most of the way - leave it open about an inch.

Hopefully, the paper will start to burn - maybe reverse for second...then get sucked up the chimney.

Then, light a good fire and follow the instructions elsewhere in the informational area of this site - articles on starting and tending a fire.

 

[Robbie]

Ceramic heater placed in the door of mine for about 4 to 5 minutes works every time for me. I had a few smoke outs when my pipe was cold, but not any more.

Stack kindling in ready to light, then place heater in door for a few minutes, then light..........remove heater.


Robbie

 

[wood_insert_regency]

I agree with begreen, I had this problem w/ a customer that bought a brand new insert, all you have to do is buy the small firestarters from Wallmart about 10 bucks or so for a case. Take the starter and break off a chunk the size of a shooter marble and light it, close the door w/ no wood, air intake all the way open and let it burn out( about ten minuites). You should now have established a good draft. Light your wood the way you normally do, or use another little chunk to get it started. The other route like so many here, is to start youre stove and dont let it go out until spring.

I think this is a great strategy you have given...

I just lit a chunk of that StarterLogg stuff that I bought at Safeway. I took a brick of the stuff and broke off a piece about the size of a golfball and boy does that stuff burn!!

What is *great* about this stuff is that it burns CLEAN, continuously, and vigorously.

It seems like the perfect solution for me... mainly that there is *no smoke* at all. So I can just light the thing and wait for the heat build-up to reverse the draft for me.... beautiful.

The chunk I'm burning right now is just blazing away beautifully...

Thanks so much!!

 

[wood_insert_regency]

Ceramic heater placed in the door of mine for about 4 to 5 minutes works every time for me. I had a few smoke outs when my pipe was cold, but not any more.

Stack kindling in ready to light, then place heater in door for a few minutes, then light..........remove heater.


Robbie

I also like this idea... I have a nice little portable heater that I can try for this purpose... also might try the hairdryer concept...

But boy, just burning a golfball sized chunk of StarterLogg fire starter brick is burning like crazy and so clean that I think, even if I had the biggest downdraft in the world, that it wouldn't matter 'cause the thing doesn't generate any smoke at all!!... man it's SO much better than fatwood.

Right now it is 33 degrees where I am in Maryland and no problem at all in the chimney so far... when this little chunk burns out then I'm gonna quickly build a small fire using a bigger chunk of the StarterLogg stuff.

Thanks to everyone for all the help This is a great community!! The way the internet is meant to be...

 

[pistonslap]

Last year was my first year and my first few fires smoked the place out. After a friend showed me how to get a good flame going on start up, it hasn't been a problem. Getting the confidence to keep building the fire up when you see a little smoke takes time.

 

[wood_insert_regency]

Last year was my first year and my first few fires smoked the place out. After a friend showed me how to get a good flame going on start up, it hasn't been a problem. Getting the confidence to keep building the fire up when you see a little smoke takes time.

Yeah.. makes total sense!

Hey, guess what tho', with those StarterLogg fire starter brick things (and I'm sure SuperCedars are even better, from what I've read here), I get NO smoke at all... I mean virtually zero... can't see any at all.

And THAT gives me the confidence to start just a small golfball sized piece to create a draft... I did that, then pushed the small coal it generated to the back of the stove... Then I built a medium sized structure out of 3 small chunks of StarterLogg, and stacked a few pieces of my extra fatwood on top of that, and a slightly bigger piece of kindling... that thing went up like a rocket! Once that was going, I put on a couple larger pieces... and finally 2 giant mac-daddy pieces... and attached to this post you can see the fruits of my labors!

The Regency i2400 is burning like a champ... I guess their design is pretty good after all, once you know how to use some non-smoking kindling .

And the automatic blower is just *pumping* heat out into the room...

Anyway, it's a thing of beauty!!

Deepest thanks to everyone on here who helped me

 

[restorer]

Hit Lowe's Tomorrow. Buy the starter logs that are on sale for 50% or more off. Today in my local one they had forty or fifty boxes. Use more than the recommended with small splits and let the warm air push the cold. May take a while, but once the convection is started you are good to go with a normal fire start.

The ceramic heater is also a real energy efficient plus. Better than the hair dryer. You don't have to hold the heater and if it gets too hot, supposing you get busy, it will shut itself off.

 

[pistonslap]

After all that talk about not being afraid to add wood when the fire was a little smoky, I was lighting my wood furnace this morning and I looked out my back window to make sure it wasn't windy. The trees weren't moving so I went down and started a fire. I was building the fire up from kindling and it was going fairly well. I went out back to get some bigger wood and when I came back in, the basement was full of smoke and it was blowing out of the intakes like a shotgun. I installed an exhaust fan in my basement for just such an occasion, turned it on and cleared out all the smoke in a couple of minutes. I relit my fire, had it back to about the same stage, closed the door, and after a few minutes the same thing happened. The only time this happened before was when it was really windy. So I went outside again and sure enough the wind was gusting about 30 -35 mph ( I checked the weather channel). My chimney temp was only up to 100 degrees. I opened the door to take the remnants of the wood out, and while I was doing that, the wind gusted again and blew a cloud of smoke out of the stove again. Normally I have excellent draft and the only time I have trouble is lighting it on a very windy day. Once the chimney is heated up, it doesn't matter how windy it gets, it will still draft.

 

[pistonslap]

btw, i did the firestarter trick that day to heat my chimney that day. i didn't see any smoke but my smoke detector went off after about 10 mins.