Wood stove technology timeline

[cjung]

Hi,

We need to replace our Vermont Castings Defiant Encore wood stove and are researching all options. We visited our local retailers (wood stove stores & big box stores). We want to get something fuel efficient and as non polluting as possible but at the same time we need to keep costs (purchase price & long term costs) under control.

So far we like the Lopi Republic 1250 ($1320) the best. The Summers Heat/Englander models from Lowes/Home Depot don't thrill us and we still worry that they won't last in the long run but the price is certainly attractive. We plan to go to another local retailer and look at a Napoleon.

A friend suggested we check out Craig's List. We wouldn't get the tax credit by purchasing a used one but if we might be able to get a better model cheap enough and be ahead in the long run. After a CL quick search, I found a number of wood stoves of all vintages. Some look to be rather primitive (box with legs and a stove pipe attached) but others sound fairly recent. We want to have one with the secondary burn fire box design and we definitely don't want catalytic again.

Is there a time line for wood stove technology/design? When did the more high efficiency fire boxes come out and who made the first ones? I'm seeing some names I recognize (Pacific Energy) and at least one I did not (Airtight). Are there any manufacturers to avoid? I figure not every model is a home run for even the best manufacturers so are there any known lemons?

Thanks in advance for all advice & comments

 

[BrotherBart]

Tom has a good explanation of the time line and EPA phase in on his website.

(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoepareg.htm)

 

[Pagey]

How much space are you heating and how often are you burning? Lopi certainly makes a fine product (we love ours), but that 1250 has a pretty small fire box. You won't get spectacularly long burn times out of it.

If you want to go with a plate steel stove, reliable manufacturers include: Pacific Energy, Quadrafire, Lopi, Avalon, and Englander (Summer's Heat), just to name a few.

Soapstone stoves: Woodstock and Hearthstone

Cast iron: Pacific Energy, Quadrafire, Jotul

I'm sure I'm missing several names, but others will offer recommendations!

 

[Nonprophet]

A friend suggested we check out Craig's List. We wouldn't get the tax credit by purchasing a used one but if we might be able to get a better model cheap enough and be ahead in the long run. After a CL quick search, I found a number of wood stoves of all vintages. Some look to be rather primitive (box with legs and a stove pipe attached) but others sound fairly recent. We want to have one with the secondary burn fire box design and we definitely don't want catalytic again.

Actually, I'd been led to believe that a used stove WOULD qualify for the tax credit as long as it was 75% efficient...................That narrows the field down quite a bit, but used stoves that efficient are out there.



NP

 

[stockcarver]

I am a hard core Blaze King user, so I admit that colors my view of stoves. I've owned and heated with 4 of them in different locations. They are very cost effective over the long run. If you buy your firewood, or cut it, you are going to get 1 cord free for every two you buy or cut/haul. That alone should convince you to keep catalytic technology in your next stove. If you like to constantly play with stove settings and reload every couple of hours, this brand is not for you.
Granted not all stoves make good use of cats, but some do, the B-K is one of these.
I am not sold on non cat stoves that use secondary air to reclaim heat from creosote. The few I've seen show signs of burnout in 2 seasons. The air tube show fatique and fire brick starts degrading from intense firebox heat. They seem to be designed to keep intense heat in the firebox for efficient burn, rather than heating the house for more than a few hours. One of the problems with this type of stove is the small firebox, for small intense, shortlived burns. This is guaranteed to keep you on a short leash, tending it.
While great for meeting EPA rules, I am more interested in getting low emissions AND comfortable heat over a long period, burning a lot less wood in the process. To me, that is the economy.
Craigslist is a good place to look, but keep in mind that rarely will people willingly sell a stove that really works well. I bought my latest blaze king princess from a dealer that took it in on trade, a very lucky find in good condition. You are smart to research brands and models, so you will recognize a good stove when it becomes available, the key will be to KNOW what you are buying, and not jump on something because it is attractive looking or inexpensive. To do so will get you exactly that, inexpensive or attractive, but probably not an excellent woodheater.
Searching these forums for a few hours should give you a pretty good knowledge of what you want to look for, certainly a used heater should be on your radar, the best will be rare on the market, but patience and knowledge will reward you.

 

[Wet1]

I basically agree with Stockcarver, but I'm not going to get into the cat vs non cat thing. Although I will say your VC is a POS (sorry) and I wouldn't judge something like a BK based on your VC.

What I do want to mention is the quality and longevity of the Englander stoves should not be questioned. Don't think just because they are cheap, that this means they are junk. Not so! They are very well made product and don't have the added cost of the typical dealer network included in their price. If the product doesn't float your boat, well that's another matter...

 

[Fsappo]

A friend suggested we check out Craig's List. We wouldn't get the tax credit by purchasing a used one but if we might be able to get a better model cheap enough and be ahead in the long run. After a CL quick search, I found a number of wood stoves of all vintages. Some look to be rather primitive (box with legs and a stove pipe attached) but others sound fairly recent. We want to have one with the secondary burn fire box design and we definitely don't want catalytic again.

Actually, I'd been led to believe that a used stove WOULD qualify for the tax credit as long as it was 75% efficient...................That narrows the field down quite a bit, but used stoves that efficient are out there.



NP

If someone who is not a tax lawyer or an accountant leads you to believe anything to do with tax credits, beware and claim your credits at your own risk.

 

[Wet1]

A friend suggested we check out Craig's List. We wouldn't get the tax credit by purchasing a used one but if we might be able to get a better model cheap enough and be ahead in the long run. After a CL quick search, I found a number of wood stoves of all vintages. Some look to be rather primitive (box with legs and a stove pipe attached) but others sound fairly recent. We want to have one with the secondary burn fire box design and we definitely don't want catalytic again.

Actually, I'd been led to believe that a used stove WOULD qualify for the tax credit as long as it was 75% efficient...................That narrows the field down quite a bit, but used stoves that efficient are out there.



NP

If someone who is not a tax lawyer or an accountant leads you to believe anything to do with tax credits, beware and claim your credits at your own risk.

Agreed. I couldn't find anything in the wording that stated only new stoves qualify, but I don't think used items were within the spirt of the credit. I personally wouldn't want to defend an audit by showing them how I had purchased a used stove on CL and that the new version qualifies so I figured I could claim it. But that's just me.

 

[cjung]

I basically agree with Stockcarver, but I'm not going to get into the cat vs non cat thing. Although I will say your VC is a POS (sorry) and I wouldn't judge something like a BK based on your VC.

What I do want to mention is the quality and longevity of the Englander stoves should not be questioned. Don't think just because they are cheap, that this means they are junk. Not so! They are very well made product and don't have the added cost of the typical dealer network included in their price. If the product doesn't float your boat, well that's another matter...

I think we're so overly cautious about the Englander/Summers Heat because we hold stock in the old saying: "if it looks too good to be true, it probably is." The Englander/Summers Heat models we are considering are listed for $799 compared to the Lopi at $1320. That's certainly an attractive savings but we want to make sure it won't cost us down the road.

About our VC being a POS - you're not nearly as sorry as we are. ;-)

 

[firefighterjake]

I basically agree with Stockcarver, but I'm not going to get into the cat vs non cat thing. Although I will say your VC is a POS (sorry) and I wouldn't judge something like a BK based on your VC.

What I do want to mention is the quality and longevity of the Englander stoves should not be questioned. Don't think just because they are cheap, that this means they are junk. Not so! They are very well made product and don't have the added cost of the typical dealer network included in their price. If the product doesn't float your boat, well that's another matter...

I think we're so overly cautious about the Englander/Summers Heat because we hold stock in the old saying: "if it looks too good to be true, it probably is." The Englander/Summers Heat models we are considering are listed for $799 compared to the Lopi at $1320. That's certainly an attractive savings but we want to make sure it won't cost us down the road.

About our VC being a POS - you're not nearly as sorry as we are. ;-)

There's a lot of very happy folks here using Englanders . . . and folks here generally are pretty vocal about what works and what doesn't work.

 

[BigBlockChevy]

I would add that I looked at the VC's when we looked for a stove. They have their catayltic deal in the back of the stove and the flame hits it all the time. I have posted before, but it bears repeating, you can call the companies that make the catalytic converters and ask them straight out, which companies have the fewest issues and too what degree. That call kept me from buying the VC Encore. So much failure due to poor location selection for the catalytic converter!

I too have become a big fan of a well-engineered and proven design of a Blaze King King Parlor. They had their issues too back in the early 80's according to my dealer, but around 1990-1992 they redesigned the housing and locatiuon of the catalytic converter. Some of the older models by some companies were never changed and are stll sold with poor engineering.

Even some of the stoves without catalytic converters have HUGE issues...the warped tubes, broken insulation panels etc...and they are costly.

As for the tax credit, be weary! Go to www.irs.gov and see if you cann get some details on the used versus new. I need one for my shop so post your research results here please.

See Ya!

 

[SolarAndWood]

I basically agree with Stockcarver, but I'm not going to get into the cat vs non cat thing. Although I will say your VC is a POS (sorry) and I wouldn't judge something like a BK based on your VC.

What I do want to mention is the quality and longevity of the Englander stoves should not be questioned. Don't think just because they are cheap, that this means they are junk. Not so! They are very well made product and don't have the added cost of the typical dealer network included in their price. If the product doesn't float your boat, well that's another matter...

I think we're so overly cautious about the Englander/Summers Heat because we hold stock in the old saying: "if it looks too good to be true, it probably is." The Englander/Summers Heat models we are considering are listed for $799 compared to the Lopi at $1320. That's certainly an attractive savings but we want to make sure it won't cost us down the road.

About our VC being a POS - you're not nearly as sorry as we are. ;-)

From your other thread about your house and what I know about your climate, you should be shopping for a bigger stove. The big Englander would have been sitting in my house right now if it hadn't been for my catalytic stove addiction. I also had 2 cat Encores that warped and know what you are going through. The catalytic gives you a lot of flexibility especially this time of year. But, it is a big $ premium over the Englander that will do the same job come Thanksgiving, maybe even earlier for you depending on where you are.

 

[wsorg]

I'd be careful with the used stove. It technically may not qualify for the credit and I'd be wary of people selling a recently bought stove since there is a good chance its not working well.

 

[PunKid8888]

Don't doubt the Englander/Summer Heat, they are serious non cat work horses. I spent over a year looking and with all the positive reviews and the price I found the Englander to be the best bang for the buck. some don't care for the look, but I have the legs which make it look a little nicer.