Woodburning Insert Installation Tips (Hearthstone Clydsdale)

[WIT Performance]

Purchased a Hearthstone Clydesdale having the place I purchased it from Ashwood fireplace in Patchohue li ny install it. Was going to tackle it my self but with the tax savings of a capital improvement it didn't make sense.
They are charging $750 for the install and want to make sure it is installed right w/o any corners being cut. I'm saving about 350 in taxes having it installed.

Just wanted to make sure it gets installed correctly I have a masonary chimney 13 x 13" clay flu they will be installing a 6" stainless liner 18 ft to the top.


How should it be insulated? ( Installer mentioned sealing at top of chimney and at the damper w/ sounded like regular R30 fiberglass not Roxul which I read on here should be used? I asked if there would be a metal block off plate at the damper which didn't seem like they are going to install one...If there is no block up plate what will prevent the insulation from falling onto the insert is this a possible fire hazard?


I have natural stone around the opening which sticks out wanted to know if it could be mortared in to avoid seeing gaps didn't seem like installer wanted to bother. Would rather not grind bricks in case I ever sell house and remove insert

I also have a Vacu-stack on my current chimney to eliminate a down draft (came with the house I bought last yr) not sure if it's needed anymore? Installer said I wouldn't need it but I wasn't confident in his answer.


I will attach a few pictures of the stone and chimney with vacu-stack below. Any help would be appreciated!!

 

[chimneylinerjames]

As regards to insulating the liner, I would insulate the entire liner with 1/2" insulation. If your chimney has a vacu-stack cap on it, I would worry about draft. I would try to do everything possible to get best draft as possible. Your chimney isn't that tall and it is an exterior chimney, other reasons I would insulate the entire length

It should be insulated with a high density insulation used for chimney liners, it has a foil backing on it to reflect the heat back to the liner. Since your current flue is 13x13 this will be very easy to install with the insulation. This style of insulation is secured to the liner and is impossible to fall off if done correctly.

 

[WIT Performance]

As regards to insulating the liner, I would insulate the entire liner with 1/2" insulation. If your chimney has a vacu-stack cap on it, I would worry about draft. I would try to do everything possible to get best draft as possible. Your chimney isn't that tall and it is an exterior chimney, other reasons I would insulate the entire length

It should be insulated with a high density insulation used for chimney liners, it has a foil backing on it to reflect the heat back to the liner. Since your current flue is 13x13 this will be very easy to install with the insulation. This style of insulation is secured to the liner and is impossible to fall off if done correctly.

So would the vacu--stack give me a better draft?

How would you insulate the damper of the original brick fireplace? (the damper metal flap is currently out)

 

[chimneylinerjames]

Well the vacu-stack wont give you better draft, it will help alleviate some of the symptoms of a down draft. The other option is raising the chimney.

You insulate the liner, it is like a blanket that gets wrapped around the liner. Then you could, many people seem to like this idea, is to install some sort of horizontal plate above the stove with some insulation on that also.

This page show you what I am talking about. https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/making_a_block_off_plate/

 

[sticks]

Totally agree with chimneylinerjames. Insulate the liner. As for the vacu-stack I would bet it was put on for the wrong reason. Vacu-stacks are great for wind induced down drafts which I guess you could have. The first thing that sticks out to me is the one story attached to the two story. Any air leaking out the top of two story can sometimes be replaced with air from the fireplace which creates the down draft. The insulated liner makes for ahotter flue which creates better draft and hopefully counteracts the downdraft. Would love to see a picture of the finished install. The Clydesdale is a beautiful insert.

 

[loudog]

The manual calls for a blockoff plate, so I'd make sure that goes in.

 

[flyingpig]

Not sure you have enough room in the existing fireplace or not, but you may want to lift the insert up ... may be 6 inches if your hearth floor is low on the floor. That will make it easier for you to feed the wood or even look at the fire. I didn't do mine so I need to bend down to see the secondary burn sometime.

Welcome to the forum........Som

 

[WIT Performance]

Thanks for the tips want to make sure it gets installed right!

 

[WIT Performance]

The manual calls for a blockoff plate, so I'd make sure that goes in.

The manual states this ...."3. In all cases, a sealed block off plate, or a plug of
other noncombustible material such as unfaced
fiberglass insulation, must be installed at the
damper area of the existing fireplace to seal the
chimney from the room air."


Says you can use unfaced fiberglass insulation as a block off ?? I know everyone says a metal plate is better just want to make sure installer doesn't give me a hard time about it,what do you guys do metal block off?

 

[webby3650]

The metal is meant to block heat transfer as well as hold up the insulation. If the damper area is tight, there's no real reason that a doubled over bat of insulation wouldn't stay just fine. I find it hard to believe they would allow fiberglass though.

 

[Eaglecraft]

Purchased a Hearthstone Clydesdale having the place I purchased it from Ashwood fireplace in Patchohue li ny install it. Was going to tackle it my self but with the tax savings of a capital improvement it didn't make sense.
They are charging $750 for the install and want to make sure it is installed right w/o any corners being cut. I'm saving about 350 in taxes having it installed.

Just wanted to make sure it gets installed correctly I have a masonary chimney 13 x 13" clay flu they will be installing a 6" stainless liner 18 ft to the top.


How should it be insulated? ( Installer mentioned sealing at top of chimney and at the damper w/ sounded like regular R30 fiberglass not Roxul which I read on here should be used? I asked if there would be a metal block off plate at the damper which didn't seem like they are going to install one...If there is no block up plate what will prevent the insulation from falling onto the insert is this a possible fire hazard?


I have natural stone around the opening which sticks out wanted to know if it could be mortared in to avoid seeing gaps didn't seem like installer wanted to bother. Would rather not grind bricks in case I ever sell house and remove insert

I also have a Vacu-stack on my current chimney to eliminate a down draft (came with the house I bought last yr) not sure if it's needed anymore? Installer said I wouldn't need it but I wasn't confident in his answer.

I will attach a few pictures of the stone and chimney with vacu-stack below. Any help would be appreciated!!

WIT Performance:

Like with anything else, there are many ways of completing your Clydesdale installation. But only a few of those ways will allow the Clyde to achieve its best performance and give you peace of mind when your Cyde is operating. I suggest that you convince your installers that "you want the installation completed your way." After all, you are paying for the work. If they refuse, you can always find other installers.

Here are a few thoughts from a previous post that I wrote months ago. They are all pertinent but the one item about insulating your SS liner is most appropriate:

There are several conditions where "the chimney or flue may not be acceptable for woodstove, hearthstove, or fireplace insert use for a number of reasons," including:​

​

1. absence of flue liner​

2. condition of liner (cracked, broken)​

3. size of flue liner (more than the maximum cross-sectional area in relation to the appliance collar size)​

4. failure of chimney to meet clearances​

​

Performance and safety can be improved with a stainless steel or poured liner system by:​

​

1. proper sizing​

2. insulation that keeps the flue gases warmer (reduced creosote and maintenance)​

3. easier maintenance​

4. tested temperature limits."​

​

All of the above is quoted directly from Heart Handbook for Building Officials - Solid Fuel Hearth Systems.​

​

I recommend that you have your installers insulate the liner from top to bottom using at least 0.5 inches of the type of insulation that is sold from such suppliers as: http://www.chimneylinerdepot.com/store/1122/category/.5-in-Thickness-Insulation-Kits-(3in-6in-Dia).html. Or course there are many other suppliers of liner insulation. Also I recommend that you avoid the use of the "pink stuff" fiberglass insulation anywhere near your stove installation. Why? Because the "pink stuff" is not fire rated. That is not to say that many posting on this site haven't used "pink stuff" as a poor man's block off plate. See below for more information about block-off plates.​

​

The liner insulation kits that many suppliers sell comes with a wire mesh "overcoat" and SS clamps to secure the insulation to the liner. Not to worry. If the liner insulation is installed properly, it will not fall off.​

​

I also suggest that you install a solid block-off plate at the bottom of your terra-cotta flue, or in the area of the damper that you have removed or will remove. The block off plate will "surround" your SS liner to prevent air infiltration into the space between the top plate and the Clyde. If you read the comments of those on this site who have installed block-off plates, most will state that having the block-off plate improved stove performance.​

​

Did you know that if you install high-performance windows in your home, that stuffing the void spaces between the window and its headers, sill, and jams with fiberglass no longer qualifies as an "Energy-Star" install? One must use either silicone sealant or low expanding foam to fill those void spaces. That is, the filler used must be solid. Fiberglass can't be used anymore because fiberglass does not prevent air infiltration. Hence the real need for a solid block-off plate.​

​

Yes you can still use fire rated insulation like Roxul adjacent to your bottom plate and under you top place to further reduce heat loss.​

​

The surround that came with your Clyde is purely decorative. When the surround is used in conjunction with a stone fireplace, it will not fit flush against the stone. The surround will fit "snug" against the stone, however. You will not notice any spaces when you get a few feet back from the Clyde. The surround serves no real purpose to prevent heat loss. However, you do not want to stick mortar, or any other adhesive materialI that would prevent you from accessing the liner/stove connection. If the Clyde surround is lacking for your installation due to aesthetic reasons, have you sheet metal shop modify it so that it looks better.​

​

I recommend that you use the Vacu-Stack that you already have. It will work nicely with you 6 inch SS liner. If the Vacu-Stack that yiu now have is 7 inch or 8 inch (I don't know what sizes are available), have your sheet metal shop modify it to work with your 6 inch liner. They can work with 316 SS.​

Good luck with your install...​

 

[webby3650]

Well said, but I'm not sure what the sheet metal shop could do to make a cast Iron surround fit up to rough stone any better. I think a combination of notching stone and a little mortar in the big voids would be the thing to do.

 

[HomeBruin]

I'm about to get my insert installed, replacing a Vermont Castings Aspen that is connected to a 6" steel single wall non-insulated stove pipe running the length of a 2 story masonry chimney in decent shape. There has been no block off plate or insulation in the lower end of the chimney. Never had draft or creosote problems. I do not intend to insulate the chimneypipe or install a block off plate. I DO intend to insulate the bottom end of the chimney above the insert. I brought up the Roxul insulation to my installer, he told me regular insulation is just fine. He said the rockwool is much more expensive, and does not stay up in the chimney cavity as well. He said that in the past 25 years he has been doing installs, he had never seen problems with regular fiberglass insulation such as melting or burning, even when pulling old insulation out during repairs, etc. I said, "can't the fiberglass melt though?" Then he reminded me what the braided gaskets the stoves themselves use around the doors, flue collars, etc. Fiberglass. I figure if insulating the chimney is so important, plugging the top and bottom of the masonry chimney with insulation creates a great dead air space insulation.

 

[webby3650]

I figure if insulating the chimney is so important, plugging the top and bottom of the masonry chimney with insulation creates a great dead air space insulation.

Unless it's an exterior chimney, then it could act as a massive heat sink. You said that you have a single wall stove pipe lining the flue, is this pipe Stainless Steel?
As for the Fiberglass, If it's so good, why do they make ceramic wool? Fiberglass isn't tested or approved to be in contact with this kinda heat. I wouldn't put myself in the position to say it's OK in my house or anyone elses house. This is what ceramic wool is for and the installer should have it readily available. Sure it might be OK either way, but wouldn't it be better to know it's right?

 

[Haven]

Well said, but I'm not sure what the sheet metal shop could do to make a cast Iron surround fit up to rough stone any better. I think a combination of notching stone and a little mortar in the big voids would be the thing to do.

If you didn't mind altering the actual stone facade. You could cut/grind into the stone to make it flush with your surround when you slip it in. For our install, we had to grind some bricks away so we could recess it into the fireplace opening instead of having it flush with the outside of the opening.

 

[Eaglecraft]

I'm about to get my insert installed, replacing a Vermont Castings Aspen that is connected to a 6" steel single wall non-insulated stove pipe running the length of a 2 story masonry chimney in decent shape. There has been no block off plate or insulation in the lower end of the chimney. Never had draft or creosote problems. I do not intend to insulate the chimneypipe or install a block off plate. I DO intend to insulate the bottom end of the chimney above the insert. I brought up the Roxul insulation to my installer, he told me regular insulation is just fine. He said the rockwool is much more expensive, and does not stay up in the chimney cavity as well. He said that in the past 25 years he has been doing installs, he had never seen problems with regular fiberglass insulation such as melting or burning, even when pulling old insulation out during repairs, etc. I said, "can't the fiberglass melt though?" Then he reminded me what the braided gaskets the stoves themselves use around the doors, flue collars, etc. Fiberglass. I figure if insulating the chimney is so important, plugging the top and bottom of the masonry chimney with insulation creates a great dead air space insulation.

Home Bruin:

Being a fan of Humphrey Bogart, your comments reminded me of the quote taken from The Treasure of the Sierra Madre , We don't need no stinking badges." "

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"

No offense intended.

Good luck with your install.

 

[HomeBruin]

It is an exterior chimney, 3 sides are exposed to exterior. Although it may act as a heat sink if a lot of pipe surface area is actually touching the interior surfaces of the chimney via conduction, I would tend to think the heat radiating from the pipe in the enclosed space would overcome the intrusion of cold air through the mansonry. The pipe is SS flexliner. I know steel is a relatively poor heat conductor, being many times less conductive than other metals, but the relatively small air space in the chimney (I do not have a huge flue) SHOULD act as an insulating boundary layer, if my memory of thermodynamics is correct. Of course this is assuming the air preventing conductive heat loss is not offset by loss due to radiation from the pipe to the masonry. At least this was the case without any BOP/insulation down at the bottom. I would think plugging the bottom with the insulation/insert itself would only improve the situation. As far as the insulation itself, theoretically rock wool would be the better choice, but in practice, if the installer has not had a problem with fiberglass insulation in 25 years, why should there be a problem with it now.

 

[HomeBruin]

I always thought that stinkin' badges line was from Blazing Saddles, lol. They recycled it in that movie!