Woodstock Fireview Cat question

[BDKMiller]

I got a Woodstock Fireview as my primary heat source about three years ago. Coincidentally I've been lurking here ever since which has sped up the learning curve on how to use these stoves. I've been doing everything by the book up until now & find that it does take a while to get this baby up to operating temperature. Not really complaining, I love this stove & love spending time in front of it. But this year I got curious & decided to do some experimenting. I put a magnetic thermometer on the single wall chimney stack about three feet from the stove & have been engaging the catalyst based on this temperature rather than the thermometer on the top of the stove. What I am doing is building a hot but small fire, letting it go until it is roaring & the outside of the metal chimney is around 400 or so. Then I engage the catalyst. In this totally unscientific experiment I find that the stove gets up to operating temperature much faster. So my question for all of you who know more than I do is- is this a good idea or am I doing something stupid or am I deluding myself that anything is different?
Thanks so much
Brian

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Brian, I believe Woodstock recommends 500 degrees on the flue vs 400 degrees, but you might call them to verify that.

I'd also be careful on the roaring fire if you are starting with a cold stove. If the fire is too hot and the stone is cold you could end up cracking it. Having said that, our stove heats up rather quickly but we do it a bit different. Once the fire gets going fairly well, I turn the draft down to 2 and that will heat the stove faster than leaving the draft full open. I also do not put much wood in if starting from a cold stove. In fact, I usually have to add a split or two again before engaging the cat. I'll usually do this when the stove top is about 200 degrees, then within 10-15 minutes it is time to engage the cat. Naturally, that is when the temperature goes up fast.

 

[MacPB]

Brian,

While there are certainly more experienced Fireview owners/users on this board, I'll tell you what I have found:

Using the flue temp to engage the catalytic combustor can be misleading because on startup, depending on the draft/speed of air flow through the flue, you can have a high temp in the flue while not having an adequate temp in the firebox. For example, sometimes when I start from a cold firebox, my flue temp can be 600-700 degrees while the firebox is only 300 internal (150 on stove top thermometer).

I happen to use the stovetop thermometer (placed towards the rear) to engage the cat. When it reads 250 (500 internal, I wait a few minutes, and then I engage the cat.

I use a Condar flue probe thermometer in combination with the stovetop thermometer to monitor/adjust temps.

While every setup is unique, overall the Woodstock instructions seem to be very reliable.

Another good resource is http://firecatcombustors.blogspot.com/. Tim Cork is pretty knowledgeable. I believe the Firecat is the one in the Fireview.

Mike

 

[Slow1]

I'm totally new to this stove and have been working by the flue temp for a different reason - I have a pair of the cook stones on top of my stove and while I don't have enough data to give hard numbers I can tell you the temperature lags quite a bit on them when starting the stove. When I did play with it having one on and one off I found during start-up that the difference between the non-cooktop and the one with the extra stone was as much as 100* different. Mind you that once things were stable the difference was down to 20-30* and may have just been normal differences between sides of the stove (something I have found to be the case with both on and off - perhaps one side of the cat is running hotter than the other? who knows...). At any rate, because of the extra stones I don't really want to wait the extra time for them to be up to 250 so I am trying to use the flue temp.

400* on flue is what I was using as my guide and it seems to work reasonable well for me (surface mount on single wall about 22" from the 90* bend up). I also do as Dennis does and cut the air down to 2 once kindling is well established. I'm a top-down starter too - that may make a difference, not sure.

Now, today I had an odd experience that may suggest that I engaged too soon. I thought all was well, but didn't get a nice healthy glow of the cat so I'm thinking in retrospect that it had not lit off well. About 20 minutes after I engaged, the flue temp had fallen to about 200 and the fire action was actually down quite a bit - just coals glowing. Then I noticed that things were heating up in the cat - a solid glow kicked in and the coals started to heat up more (as if I had increased air), temp on flue started to rise to about 220 or so. I then had a 'woosh' ignition of the firebox and flames stayed for the burn and the stove top started climbing more. My guess is that I had a cat stall or it it didn't ignite properly to begin with. So... perhaps I was too much 'on the line' or something. Living on the edge is not where I really want to be but no harm seems to have been done although I do wonder what my smoke looked like for those 20 minutes. What I did differently today was to engage a little earlier than normal - a bit below the 400 mark, perhaps 375. I was too eager I suppose. So I'm thinking I should consider 400 to be the floor, not the target temperature.

 

[Todd]

I have a probe thermometer 20" above the stove through single wall pipe and have found it very easy to reach that 500 degree mark and usually much higher when bypass burning but that doesn't mean the cat is at that temp. Most of the heat goes up the flue in the bypass mode cuz it's right in back of the stove and like the others have stated reducing your air down to 1 or 2 will heat up the rest of the stove and cat faster than a wide open bypass fire.

 

[Todd]

Now, today I had an odd experience that may suggest that I engaged too soon. I thought all was well, but didn't get a nice healthy glow of the cat so I'm thinking in retrospect that it had not lit off well. About 20 minutes after I engaged, the flue temp had fallen to about 200 and the fire action was actually down quite a bit - just coals glowing. Then I noticed that things were heating up in the cat - a solid glow kicked in and the coals started to heat up more (as if I had increased air), temp on flue started to rise to about 220 or so. I then had a 'woosh' ignition of the firebox and flames stayed for the burn and the stove top started climbing more. My guess is that I had a cat stall or it it didn't ignite properly to begin with. So... perhaps I was too much 'on the line' or something. Living on the edge is not where I really want to be but no harm seems to have been done although I do wonder what my smoke looked like for those 20 minutes. What I did differently today was to engage a little earlier than normal - a bit below the 400 mark, perhaps 375. I was too eager I suppose. So I'm thinking I should consider 400 to be the floor, not the target temperature.

This has happened to me a few times and it's good to have that probe thermometer to tell me that I engaged to soon. If everything is well and I have lite off my probe will stay above 500.

 

[MyFyrByrd]

I also have a set of cooktop stones that are never removed from the top of the stove (exept for accessing the cat or cleaning the stovepipe). I bought these for the purpose of protecting the top surface (you have probably noticed how easy soapstone is to scratch). Anyway, because of this extra layer, I have also resorted to using flue temps for engagement time indicators. I also do as Savage said and drop the intake lever from wide open to about 1/2 open once the flames start dancing. After adding the second log or set of logs and waiting the recommended 10 or 15 minutes to remove the excess moisture:
1. Reopen the intake air ALL THE WAY
2. Immediatley, engage the cat (lever in the up position)
3. WAIT 10 TO 15 SECONDS and then return the air intake lever from wide open to the half open or less position.
My experience has been that unless you have very well seasoned wood, you shouldn't set the intake below the 1 1/2 position.
Step 3 helps to ensure that the combuster "lights off".
It took me a while to discover this. I'm still in the learning stages having bought a Fireview last year. I'm new to posting on the Hearth.com Forums and hope to spend more time here.
Please let me know if this helps.

 

[Slow1]

That's quite an interesting process that you have there MyFyrByrd. What temps do you use on the flue as your guide? Prior to adopting your "full open air for 10-15 seconds" protocol, what symptoms did you see that indicated a failure of the cat to light off? I'm much newer at this stove than you are so am generally looking to learn from others (hey, why reinvent the wheel eh?).

As to "unless very well seasoned wood, shouldn't set intake below the 1 1/2 position" - how close to seasoned is your wood that you need to keep it open that far? Could it be something else in your configuration that is keeping the requirement to be open that much? I'm asking only because it seems that anything over 1 so far for me really seems to go through the wood amazingly fast (and pump out the heat!) so I can't imagine running at 1.5 at this point. Perhaps later in the season I will want that much heat, but the cat seems quite happy to burn for me at 1 or less (down to 1/2). Then again, I'm running very well seasoned wood - 15-22% MC

 

[TCintheOzarks]

I also have cook tops on both sides of my Fireview. I cut a 2.5" dia. hole through the left side cook top with a hole saw so that the surface thermometer sit down in the hole and on the stove top. That does two things one it reads the true temp of the stove top and it keeps the surface thermometer below the top of the cook top so that any pans or pots can sit over the top of the thermometer.
The soap stone works just like wood. It can be cut and routed or drilled with regular wood working tools.

 

[akennyd]

Hello y'all,

I'm watching this thread with great interest.

Kenny

John 3:16

 

[Todd]

I also have cook tops on both sides of my Fireview. I cut a 2.5" dia. hole through the left side cook top with a hole saw so that the surface thermometer sit down in the hole and on the stove top. That does two things one it reads the true temp of the stove top and it keeps the surface thermometer below the top of the cook top so that any pans or pots can sit over the top of the thermometer.
The soap stone works just like wood. It can be cut and routed or drilled with regular wood working tools.

Great idea! I've toyed with the idea of drilling a hole through the top to insert a probe thermometer next to the cat but I'm too chicken and don't know if it would give an accurate reading.

 

[TCintheOzarks]

Great idea! I've toyed with the idea of drilling a hole through the top to insert a probe thermometer next to the cat but I'm too chicken and don't know if it would give an accurate reading.

Todd you do know that the fireview already has a place to put a probe on the cat. It is in the back of the stove and is plugged with a small screw or bolt. I would have to measure mine but I think the probe needs to be 8" long to reach the cat. Instructions are in the manual.......Terry

 

[Todd]

Great idea! I've toyed with the idea of drilling a hole through the top to insert a probe thermometer next to the cat but I'm too chicken and don't know if it would give an accurate reading.

Todd you do know that the fireview already has a place to put a probe on the cat. It is in the back of the stove and is plugged with a small screw or bolt. I would have to measure mine but I think the probe needs to be 8" long to reach the cat. Instructions are in the manual.......Terry

Yeah, I know but to read it you have to squeeze behind the stove. Kind of a bad place to have it imo.

 

[MyFyrByrd]

[quote author="Slow1" date="1259482861"]That's quite an interesting process that you have there MyFyrByrd. What temps do you use on the flue as your guide? Prior to adopting your "full open air for 10-15 seconds" protocol, what symptoms did you see that indicated a failure of the cat to light off? I'm much newer at this stove than you are so am generally looking to learn from others (hey, why reinvent the wheel eh?).

 

[MyFyrByrd]

If the cat glows orange a few seconds after closing the bypass it is a “FOR SURE” indication that the cat is doing it’s job. The cat doesn’t have to glow to be working, but if it is then you are assured i’ts operating properly. Waiting those few seconds with full air applied gives the cat an extra shot of heat. Using the method I described above allows me to get the cat working several minutes sooner.
Most of the wood I use now was cut and stacked earlier this spring. I have a mix of oak, apple, ash, maple, and yellow birch. These species don’t season at the same rate (especially the oak and apple). I’ve been doing alot of cutting and splitting lately in an effort to have better seasoned wood for next year. Maybe next year I’ll be setting the intake air to a lower setting after the bypass is closed. But for now i’ts not going below 1 1/2.

 

[TCintheOzarks]

Great idea! I've toyed with the idea of drilling a hole through the top to insert a probe thermometer next to the cat but I'm too chicken and don't know if it would give an accurate reading.

Todd you do know that the fireview already has a place to put a probe on the cat. It is in the back of the stove and is plugged with a small screw or bolt. I would have to measure mine but I think the probe needs to be 8" long to reach the cat. Instructions are in the manual.......Terry

Yeah, I know but to read it you have to squeeze behind the stove. Kind of a bad place to have it imo.

You are right it is in a bad place. It is not as hard to see as you would think as long as your stove sets out from the wall a ways and you don't have any walls on the side you would have to squeeze around.
It is interesting to watch the difference between the cat temp versus the stove top and flue temp...........Terry

 

[MyFyrByrd]

Great idea! I've toyed with the idea of drilling a hole through the top to insert a probe thermometer next to the cat but I'm too chicken and don't know if it would give an accurate reading.

Todd you do know that the fireview already has a place to put a probe on the cat. It is in the back of the stove and is plugged with a small screw or bolt. I would have to measure mine but I think the probe needs to be 8" long to reach the cat. Instructions are in the manual.......Terry

TCintheOzarks ,
I read the manual from cover to cover. Never seen any mention of a probe location on the back of the stove. I checked Woodstock's website to see if they sell this 8 inch long probe. Nothing. Where can I purchase one? Are the thread sizes all standard on these probes or do I have to find a thread size that matches the screw removed from the back of the stove?

 

[Todd]

If the cat glows orange a few seconds after closing the bypass it is a “FOR SURE” indication that the cat is doing it’s job. The cat doesn’t have to glow to be working, but if it is then you are assured i’ts operating properly. Waiting those few seconds with full air applied gives the cat an extra shot of heat. Using the method I described above allows me to get the cat working several minutes sooner.
Most of the wood I use now was cut and stacked earlier this spring. I have a mix of oak, apple, ash, maple, and yellow birch. These species don’t season at the same rate (especially the oak and apple). I’ve been doing alot of cutting and splitting lately in an effort to have better seasoned wood for next year. Maybe next year I’ll be setting the intake air to a lower setting after the bypass is closed. But for now i’ts not going below 1 1/2.

The problem I see with engaging the cat at full air is a risk of thermal shocking the cat? Wonder what Woodstock would say?

 

[Todd]

Great idea! I've toyed with the idea of drilling a hole through the top to insert a probe thermometer next to the cat but I'm too chicken and don't know if it would give an accurate reading.

Todd you do know that the fireview already has a place to put a probe on the cat. It is in the back of the stove and is plugged with a small screw or bolt. I would have to measure mine but I think the probe needs to be 8" long to reach the cat. Instructions are in the manual.......Terry

TCintheOzarks ,
I read the manual from cover to cover. Never seen any mention of a probe location on the back of the stove. I checked Woodstock's website to see if they sell this 8 inch long probe. Nothing. Where can I purchase one? Are the thread sizes all standard on these probes or do I have to find a thread size that matches the screw removed from the back of the stove?

3 years ago I purchased one from Woodstock, they must still have them, it was made by Condar. I screwed it up when I scraped the crud off it with sandpaper.

 

[MyFyrByrd]

3 years ago I purchased one from Woodstock, they must still have them, it was made by Condar. I screwed it up when I scraped the crud off it with sandpaper.

I always thought that the screws that are on the back of the stove were for an optional heat shield. Did your probe thread into the hole or was it just placed in the screw hole?

 

[Todd]

The screw for the probe is right above the UL plate. Just remove and slide the probe in.

 

[TCintheOzarks]

I bought my probe from woodstock about 4 yrs ago. I got the 8 inch and a shorter one for the flue. Look on page 31 of your manual. I will try to post a photo of mine.

 

[MyFyrByrd]

This site has taught me sooooooo much. Thanks for posting the pics, TCintheOzarks. I would have bought one of those probes with the stove if I knew there was a location designed for using one. I did check on page 31 of my manual but that page nore any adjacent pages mention about the probe. I wonder if I have a different version of the manual. On the front cover of the manual it says Rev (revision) 0306. Any chance you could scan that page for me?

 

[TCintheOzarks]

This site has taught me sooooooo much. Thanks for posting the pics, TCintheOzarks. I would have bought one of those probes with the stove if I knew there was a location designed for using one. I did check on page 31 of my manual but that page nore any adjacent pages mention about the probe. I wonder if I have a different version of the manual. On the front cover of the manual it says Rev (revision) 0306. Any chance you could scan that page for me?

My owners manual is Revision 0703 so they must have made some changes.Bought my fireview in 2005.I would be glad to scan the page but the old scanner quit working........Terry

 

[BDKMiller]

Thanks for all the info guys.
I actually live & work near the Woodstock Stove factory/showroom so I'll swing by later today & see if those probes are still available. I found the place where one should go on the back of my stove but it looks like I will have to cut my heat shield to make it fit.