Woodstock Soapstone tour

[Adios Pantalones]

This should be Vic's thread, but screw him- it's only Vic.

We went up to Lebanon, NH yesterday to see stoves and take a tour of the Woodstock factory. I believe it was Ron that gave us the tour. It was a great trip on many a score: People took a significant amount of time out of their day to accommodate us. Ron answered Vic's seemingly endless questions, having paint samples prepped, and giving out samples of soapstone, telling me the history of the company.

Folks on the floor were genuinely psyched to meet interested folks, answer questions, and demonstrate what they do- cutting and shaping stone, assembling, packing, etc. As Vic and I are both dog people- we were happy to see the number of labs hanging out in offices there, rounding out the environment. Throw in Doritos and Cokes and I don't see a reason not to just hang out there all day.

Lewis in R&D;was also too cool- he was like the me of woodstove science. He was pumped to be doing exactly what he was doing. The good folks there are genuinely interested in staying ahead of the curve on efficiency, ease of use, and value- and they put a lot of time and money into testing.

Finally- we hit the 7 Barrel Brewery for lunch. typical pub food with good beer. We each had a stout that tasted almost exactly like the stout that I used to brew. Yum.

Aside from the traveling company- it was quite a trip. I'm not in the market for a stove, but if I was- this is the kind of company that I like to deal with.

I have no affiliation with this company at all. If you're a stove freak or a fan of American industry- you should go see this.

 

[Todd]

Did you get a look at their Fireview cat/non-cat hybrid?

 

[Jags]

MMMmmmm....beeeeer!

Oh, and the other stuff was cool too.

 

[btj1031]

Sounds like a quality operation. I visited 7 BB for the first time 2 weeks ago. Atmosphere leaves a little to be desired, but the brown ale was excellent.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Sounds like an interesting trip for sure. Glad you had a good time. Someday I hope to get up there for a tour.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Todd- not sure, to be honest. I saw a stove undergoing testing/modification in the lab. There's a lot going on there. Actually- my favorite part was the antique (1860's) soapstone stoves they have restored. Really amazing pieces of art.

 

[potter]

Sounds like a good time, AP.
hmmmm... firebug, engineer, ceramacist... maybe you should start designing that cast ceramic woodstove in your spare time.
Or how about the material used for stove windows, thats ceramic. A transparent stove! Seriously I wonder if any one has ever looked at thin walled high-tech cast ceramic. There's some amazing new materials out there that could probably take the thermal shock etc. Suppose you'd still have to be more careful tossing a log in- although many fired materials would be as strong as soapstone.

 

[Todd]

Well, did Vic take the plunge? Where are you Vic?

 

[Bobbin]

We own two of their stoves and I can't say enough nice things about them. The husband picked our Fireview up at the factory many, many moons ago and it arrived at our home as a surprise for me. I've never been to the factory but I can see that the next time I'm in a mood for a road trip it would make an excellent destination.

Thanks for the report! you didn't happen to pack your camera, did you? The antique stoves really pique my curiosity, too.

 

[savageactor7]

Do they put the stones on all at once? I take it they must use some kind of compressing net so the stones don't settle...I dunno.

 

[Vic99]

I have posted about a desire to tour the Woodstock factory, but I waited a day to post because I wanted to digest everything I've seen . . . that and I had the day off from work and scrounged nearly a cord of pine, sugar maple, and shag bark hickory today.

I agree with nearly everything that AP observed. It was a good trip. Although I have not visited any other stove companies, Woodstock is a company that I think most people would like. Regardless of wether I buy a stove from them, it was worth the trip. Very nice operation . . . but AP pretty much said it all . . . the people, the attitude, the work environment . . . they seemed to have gotten it right. Seems they are always tinkering and want to continue to improve. Ron was very nice and informative. Lewis was great to talk to. Mike H. came up and introduced himself and we chatted a bit. If I were buying my first stove, I think that I would go with the Woodstock Fireview.

Although I have until my summer renovation project to decide, right now I am leaning toward keeping my Hearthstone and adding a damper to it. Perhaps I'll also vent out of the top of the stove, instead of out the back, to get a bit more heat into the living space out of it. I would like a longer burn. Realistically I hope that the damper would give me another half-an-hour. Not ideal, but better than what I have. Since the my renovation is going to include adding insulation to a large gap in the first floor walls and knocking down a wall to more evenly distribute heat and adding a damper, and possibly exposed stove pipe, perhaps that will more effectively heat my house in January.

I saw a Fireview in action and it seems to be a great stove with a longer burn time. Attractive stove, higher over fire threshold than Hearthstone too. But the firebox seems to be about the same size as the Homestead. I measured the Homestead at 2.1 cubic feet and Fireview at just shy of 2.2 cubic feet. I may get more heat out of the Fireview with a more efficient combustion of the smoke (1.3 g/hr vs. 1.9 g/hr) due to the CAT. I think this is significant (AP and I disagree on how much this is worth and I have found that it is better to listen than argue at times) ;-) Even so, that difference, even if significant, does not seem to be enough to merit changing out my stove without first seeing how these other modifications mentioned above help my set up. Although I would recapture some of my money in selling the Hearthstone, it still isn't trivial.

I still maintain that the Homestead is a good stove. The Fireview may be a bit better, but this is where I am.

I'll still go back and forth with this over the next few months.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

"I may get more heat out of the Fireview with a more efficient combustion of the smoke (1.3 g/hr vs. 1.9 g/hr) due to the CAT"

Here is my disagreement- if you think you're getting more heat because you are burning 0.6 g of particles, then you are only getting the heat of burning an extra 0.6g of particles more per hour. Clip your toenails and throw them in- there's your extra 0.6 g of fuel to burn. Seriously- one extra gram more fuel- the weight of a dollar bill- the weight of a paper clip- worth of fuel is required to overcome the difference. That splinter that you sweep up after loading is more than the difference in efficiency.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

I'd also add that the way these tests are done- the confidence intervals of 1.9 and 1.3 g/h are very close if they do not overlap.

 

[Corey]

Interesting info. Any pics / video of the trip?? (Especially the pub!)

 

[begreen]

"I may get more heat out of the Fireview with a more efficient combustion of the smoke (1.3 g/hr vs. 1.9 g/hr) due to the CAT"

Here is my disagreement- if you think you're getting more heat because you are burning 0.6 g of particles, then you are only getting the heat of burning an extra 0.6g of particles more per hour. Clip your toenails and throw them in- there's your extra 0.6 g of fuel to burn. Seriously- one extra gram more fuel- the weight of a dollar bill- the weight of a paper clip- worth of fuel is required to overcome the difference. That splinter that you sweep up after loading is more than the difference in efficiency.

The toenails and splinters are fuel inputs. The particulate is a measurement of output, no? To be more accurate, I think the question is what volume of wood emits .6 gms of particulate when burned in a modern efficient stove? Even if the stove is emitting only 1.3 gms of particulate/hr. (simply amazing), I would imagine it's still consuming pounds of wood during that hour. If the other stove is putting out .6 gms more, than that is an increase of almost 50% more particulate. When they are measuring that accurately, is there really a ~50% tolerance in measurement? Dunno, just asking.

 

[Vic99]

AP,
I think that by itself, 0.6g is a not a huge amount. That coupled with a CAT burning the smoke at 500F instead of waiting for the secondary burn tubes to engage at ~1,100F makes the increase in efficiency significant, in my opinion. . . . although as I've alluded, I'm not sure that it is prominent enough to merit swaping one stove for the other, particularly since I have all those other environmental modifications that I'm making. I do make a distinction between significant and prominent.

I'm actually more encouraged by what this summer's change in my set up could potentially do. Last year, I've realized gains by insulating the floor, tightening the rim joists, cauking holes in the basement, adding cellulose ontop of fiberglass in my attic, replacing drafty kitchen windows, and dropping cellulose insulation into some open first floor wall cavities. Clearly I'll eventually reach a point of dimishing returns, but I don't believe I'm there yet.

Cozy,
I brought my camera, but left it in the car when we went. Pub was right next to route 89 and easily accessible.

Savage,
If I remember correctly, when constructing the stove, they put the bottom metal frame together first. A piece of thick clothesline-like rope was strung around the metal corners and then the soapstone sides were slide down/slotted. I suspect an adhesive is used somewhere, but I don't remember if they went over that. Some of the soapstone cuts were gorgeous. Light gray with the occasional pale blue vein.

They said it takes about 8 hours to finish a Fireview.

Todd,
Not sure about a non-cat hybrid. What we saw suggested that they are always tinkering. If the EPA raises emission and efficiency standards, they want to be ready, possibly with a retrofit for current stove owners.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Begreen- I hear what you are saying, but his argument was based on heat output difference, as stated above, rather than a pollution concern. In that case, if we assume the stove is 73%+ efficient, then the addition of one gram of fuel makes up the difference in efficiency as measured in particulate load. This would not be accurate, however, because there are lots of potentially combustible gases such as CO, H2, and hydrocarbons that are not counted in particle/smoke measurement.

I would contend that calling it a 50% increase and putting importance on the "50%" is a bit like "doubling nothing", and they are both pretty amazing claims anyway.

You would not need a 50% tolerance to have an overlap in confidence intervals, but really- a paired t test would be the proper way to say they are statistically different or not anyway. It was my understanding that the tests are run with dry small splits of pine or something- which themselves have a natural variability- and that reproducibility was difficult, though trends are apparent when improving a stove. I could be wrong on that.

 

[Vic99]

BeGreen says: "When they are measuring that accurately, is there really a ~50% tolerance in measurement? Dunno, just asking."

I wonder about a CI of 45% as well. I imagine that some test data points overlap, but to test properly to advertise X emissions with a large body of data is another matter. Of course, all of this assumes that the advertised emissions between Hearthstone and Woodstock are correct and have comparable circumstances.

and . . . it wouldn't be the first time that I am missing something.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

"That coupled with a CAT burning the smoke at 500F instead of waiting for the secondary burn tubes to engage at ~1,100F makes the increase in efficiency significant, in my opinion"

If it burns at 500F, or there's a secondary burn at 1200 F- as long as it burns, I don't see how one is more "efficient". Burnt is burnt and you get the energy out either way- it's a measurable/calculable parameter, rather than a matter for opinion.

Now maybe there's extra fuel used or heat up the chute getting a non cat to temperature- I have little experience on that. A cat will make a load burn longer, but you can only get out as much heat as fuel you put in.

I know that one limiting factor for stove companies is that it costs a lot to have a stove fully tested for efficiency, so they can't advertise independently verified numbers that can be compared against other stoves (for heat, not pollution). Going by the extra 0.6g of smoke emitted as a measure of efficiency doesn't tell us anything though.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

AP,

I'm actually more encouraged by what this summer's change in my set up could potentially do. Last year, I've realized gains by insulating the floor, tightening the rim joists, cauking holes in the basement, adding cellulose ontop of fiberglass in my attic, replacing drafty kitchen windows, and dropping cellulose insulation into some open first floor wall cavities. Clearly I'll eventually reach a point of dimishing returns, but I don't believe I'm there yet.

Now that's a mouthful. I went around and stuffed up some air leaks downstairs, and the heating difference this year was amazing. As far as bang for your buck, the heating people always say that attic insulation, nailing air leaks, and other insulation are the way to go. If you need someone to knock holes in walls so you can stuff in insulation- gimme a call

 

[Todd]

I can't tell you the difference in efficiency from all the technical numbers, but can flat out tell you from real world experience since I've burned both stoves in the same house and setup, the Fireview just puts out more heat and burns longer with similar loads period.

Vic,
It would probably be smart to just wait and see how your Homestead works out after your remodel. No sense in buying a new stove if the one you have woks out fine. Woodstock will be around for a long time, no need to rush.

 

[Vic99]

" “That coupled with a CAT burning the smoke at 500F instead of waiting for the secondary burn tubes to engage at ~1,100F makes the increase in efficiency significant, in my opinion”

If it burns at 500F, or there’s a secondary burn at 1200 F- as long as it burns, I don’t see how one is more “efficient”. "


--- Perhaps I was not clear. If I understand how this works . . . the CAT combusts the particulates, HCs, et. al at 500F. In a non-CAT there are less particulate etc. burn when the stove is getting up to temp because the threshold for them to burn is not until 1200F. Thus, during the heat up and cool down of the burn cycle (a range of around 700 F wide) you are getting a more complete combustion. I'm saying this more complete combustion is a more efficient burn.

Maybe, though, I am not grocking what you're sayin' . . . . and anyway, maybe this has gone on long enough.

 

[Vic99]

AP,
When I moved into this house, the only insulation was the wood on the walls and a bit of vermiculite hear and there. The nat. gas bill was killing me. Other improvements were done before those mentioned above. I'm hoping that this summer actually brings a close to my insulation days, unless we decide to convert basement space into living space . . . but that is in the medium to far future, if at all.

Knocking holes in walls sure is fun, albiet dusty. Two years ago we updated the walls and ceiling of the bedroom upstairs. Clinging to the attic rafters and stomping through the ceiling from above was the coolest thing I did that day, although I did get cut up a bit. I kept thinking as daylight shot through those foot sized holes how it was taking me 15 minutes to wreck a couple of days worth of work.

Todd,

That is great that you can give real world experience with both stoves. I agree, I think I'll wait unless something else occurs to me.

 

[bjkjoseph]

i bought and installed my fireview in early december,very happy with quality and long burn times.but your saying you want more heat,the homestead heats a larger area than the fireview,it will use more wood and have shorter burn times but it will heat a larger area.you might want to consider a good cast iron stove to meet your needs.

 

[Todd]

but your saying you want more heat,the homestead heats a larger area than the fireview,it will use more wood and have shorter burn times but it will heat a larger area.you might want to consider a good cast iron stove to meet your needs.

I don't agree with that statement, I've burned both and found the opposite. I also don't believe the manufactures heating claims. Woodstock is very conservative in their numbers and there are plenty of people heating more than 2000 sq ft. There are many variables in sq ft heating numbers.