ZC fireplace to wood insert

[Derrinx]

So I'm experienced with wood burners. We have a stove, and I recently installed an insert into an old fireplace at the family cabin. I absolutely love them and have been gathering dozens of chords since I would swing a chainsaw.

I bought my first home, and immediately the fireplace drew my attention. I know all the costs and benefits of wood heat, and I'm convinced I want to do an insert here. Though I wont do the install myself here for the liability issues. My question is, what inserts are rated for zero clearance??? Its hard to find this on manufacturer's manuals.

Also, for my piece of mind, is it advisable to line the opening in the ZC fireplace with durok and roxul?

I attached a picture of the existing fireplace. Its 38 wide and 31 tall. It's a pretty generic piece.

Also found this thread https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/zero-clearance-to-insert-conversion.78430/

I figure installed this project will be around 6k. Hopefully less. So what inserts am I completely ok with and should I be considering?

 

[begreen]

Not all ZC fireplaces permit insert installation. Look for the manufacturer and model info. It should be on a metal tag on the frame. Let us know what you find.

Most insert manuals say whether they are for masonry only or also approved for ZC (metal) fireplace installation.

 

[Derrinx]

Not all ZC fireplaces permit insert installation. Look for the manufacturer and model info. It should be on a metal tag on the frame. Let us know what you find.

Most insert manuals say whether they are for masonry only or also approved for ZC (metal) fireplace installation.

Thanks. So I understand, are you implying I have to install the insert into the zero clearance fireplace? I thought the entire metal fireplace would come out, and insert would replace it.

 

[begreen]

Ah, this is a common issue. Some fireplace marketing refers to them as inserts. That thread's title is misleading and incorrect. A replacement would be a different ZC fireplace, not an insert. An insert is inserted into an existing fireplace.

Back to your question, yes it can be done, but I think your budget may be low because the chimney most likely will also need replacement and then there is the carpentry and finish work. There are some decent EPA value inserts available but getting one may be a little challenging due to the changing of EPA rules in 2020. See if you can find a Flame Monaco to keep the budget reasonable.

 

[Sbrown28]

Ah, this is a common issue. Some fireplace marketing refers to them as inserts. That thread's title is misleading and incorrect. A replacement would be a different ZC fireplace, not an insert. An insert is inserted into an existing fireplace.

Back to your question, yes it can be done, but I think your budget may be low because the chimney most likely will also need replacement and then there is the carpentry and finish work. There are some decent EPA value inserts available but getting one may be a little challenging due to the changing of EPA rules in 2020. See if you can find a Flame Monaco to keep the budget reasonable.

Could you please explain/define what you mean by an “insert” and “replacement”.

 

[Derrinx]

Ok. I'm pretty sure I have a stainless 8inch chimney. I imagine the install would be a 6 inch flex coil run down the opening from chimney cap down to the junction on the "insert". So then the install should be simple from that perspective. For my understanding, let's refer to a drafty open box as a zero clearance fireplace and a sealed controlled burn chamber as an insert. I want to remove the zero clearance fireplace, and install a sealed efficient "zero clearance" insert?

I checked out the flame monaco. It looks like a more efficient version of a conventional zero clearance fireplace. You're saying this type is my only option and I can forget about a proper insert like a Vermont castings merrimack?

 

[begreen]

Without knowing what make/model your current "generic" ZC fireplace is, I can't answer that question.

 

[bholler]

Ok. I'm pretty sure I have a stainless 8inch chimney. I imagine the install would be a 6 inch flex coil run down the opening from chimney cap down to the junction on the "insert". So then the install should be simple from that perspective. For my understanding, let's refer to a drafty open box as a zero clearance fireplace and a sealed controlled burn chamber as an insert. I want to remove the zero clearance fireplace, and install a sealed efficient "zero clearance" insert?

I checked out the flame monaco. It looks like a more efficient version of a conventional zero clearance fireplace. You're saying this type is my only option and I can forget about a proper insert like a Vermont castings merrimack?

Yes it is very likely that an insert is not an option for you. But to know for sure we would need to know what make and model your fireplace is

 

[Derrinx]

Majestic rc36

 

[bholler]

Majestic rc36

MAJESTIC RC36 HOMEOWNER'S MANUAL Pdf Download

View and Download Majestic RC36 homeowner's manual online. MBU Series; MBUC Series; R Series; RC Series; MR Series; MRC Series; WM Series; MST Series; C Series; BAY Series. RC36 indoor fireplace pdf manual download. Also for: R36, Wmii-42s, Wmii-42d, C36l, C36r, Bay.

www.manualslib.com

Looks like no insert allowed.

 

[Derrinx]

Thanks for the info!

So again, if I remove the rc36, my only option will be another zero clearance fireplace like the flame monaco.

So my follow up question, can any zero clearance fireplaces approach the sealed combustion and efficiency and heat output of a fireplace insert?

Thanks again

 

[begreen]

Yes, a good EPA ZC fireplace can be a respectable and efficient heater.

 

[Derrinx]

Yes, a good EPA ZC fireplace can be a respectable and efficient heater.

So what zc fireplaces are airtight, have good air control, and heat output?

Flame monaco
What else?

Fully aware of the pain EPA 2020 will be...

My house is oil heat, you'd think the EPA would want to make it easy for me to switch to renewable heating sources.

 

[begreen]

There is a large list of EPA approved fireplaces that are good heaters. The right one depends on what fits the location and budget. Pacific Energy, RSF, Astria, Kozy, Osburn are some good known brands.

 

[Derrinx]

Ok.

I need an epa rated zc fireplace. We're on the same page now.

Let's talk the install. I'd have to break the surround a bit to get the rc32 out, since the surround is built around the zc fireplace. Then, I'd have to reframe and veneer any bricks on the face to accommodate the new zc epa rated fireplace. And I may need changes to existing flue system to accommodate the new zc fireplace....

The simplicity of dropping in an insert and running a 6 inch flex coil down the existing 8 inch flue is lost now. I'll go to the local hearth store and see what this will cost me now...

I see now why 6k was optimistic.

 

[begreen]

The price is typically in the 10-12K range. Some setups allow the chase to be opened up from the rear and the fireplace to be removed from the back. If one is really lucky, the new fireplace fits in with only minor modifications, but often it's a tear-out like you described.

 

[Derrinx]

Thanks again for all the info. I feel like I could zip right through the majestic rc36 with an agle grinder. The steel is paper thin and stamped. In theory in would destroy it by cutting into small pieces and pulling out of the front. Then, find a smaller epa certified zero clearance fireplace that would slide in through the front, and cover any overlap with some trimming material? The connection to the flue would be tricky though, I'm guessing the only way would be a 6inch flex liner since the zc fireplaces are built in place and the flue is attached before the wall is closed up. This is complicated.

 

[kennyp2339]

Thanks again for all the info. I feel like I could zip right through the majestic rc36 with an agle grinder. The steel is paper thin and stamped. In theory in would destroy it by cutting into small pieces and pulling out of the front. Then, find a smaller epa certified zero clearance fireplace that would slide in through the front, and cover any overlap with some trimming material? The connection to the flue would be tricky though, I'm guessing the only way would be a 6inch flex liner since the zc fireplaces are built in place and the flue is attached before the wall is closed up. This is complicated.

whats in the back of the stove - prefab chimney that's covered with siding or stove veneer work? might be easier to cut a hole behind the unit, slide the old on out and install the new one in that way then run a new class a chimney down the chase is that's the construction behind the wall.

 

[ericm979]

We replaced a cheap zero clearance fireplace with a Monaco Flame. We had the entire surround removed and rebuilt differently which added to the cost. It was cheap fake stone and was cracked. We also had to replace the entire flue inside the chase. It was dual wall 8" and not rated for a stove. I researched this a bunch and it didn't look to me that there's any approved way to line a flue like that. You have to replace it. The flex liner is for masonry flues. The Flame Monaco manual is on line and is very detailed on installation and flue requirements.

 

[Derrinx]

whats in the back of the stove - prefab chimney that's covered with siding or stove veneer work? might be easier to cut a hole behind the unit, slide the old on out and install the new one in that way then run a new class a chimney down the chase is that's the construction behind the wall.

It's in the corner of room with one side of the corner being exterior wall with wood siding and chimney chase, the the other wall is an interior wall that happens to have a bathroom in the other side.

 

[bholler]

Thanks again for all the info. I feel like I could zip right through the majestic rc36 with an agle grinder. The steel is paper thin and stamped. In theory in would destroy it by cutting into small pieces and pulling out of the front. Then, find a smaller epa certified zero clearance fireplace that would slide in through the front, and cover any overlap with some trimming material? The connection to the flue would be tricky though, I'm guessing the only way would be a 6inch flex liner since the zc fireplaces are built in place and the flue is attached before the wall is closed up. This is complicated.

Many times you can take it out the front in prices. But then you need to get the new one in

 

[hoot]

So I'm experienced with wood burners. We have a stove, and I recently installed an insert into an old fireplace at the family cabin. I absolutely love them and have been gathering dozens of chords since I would swing a chainsaw.

I bought my first home, and immediately the fireplace drew my attention. I know all the costs and benefits of wood heat, and I'm convinced I want to do an insert here. Though I wont do the install myself here for the liability issues. My question is, what inserts are rated for zero clearance??? Its hard to find this on manufacturer's manuals.

Also, for my piece of mind, is it advisable to line the opening in the ZC fireplace with durok and roxul?

I attached a picture of the existing fireplace. Its 38 wide and 31 tall. It's a pretty generic piece.

Also found this thread https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/zero-clearance-to-insert-conversion.78430/

I figure installed this project will be around 6k. Hopefully less. So what inserts am I completely ok with and should I be considering?

I don't know where you are on this project but like you I would do everything in my power and financial ability to get an insert in there safely and legally. I had trouble finding where in your manual where it says no insert allowed. Lots about if you alter it you void the warranty.
Lopi makes inserts that has Majestic on its list of approved zc fireplaces it can be used in
Zero-Clearance (Metal) Fireplace Requirements  Must be manufactured by one of the following manufacturers:
• Marco • Majestic • Heatilator • Preway • Tempco • Superior • Heat N Glo • Lennox • Martin • Monesson

(broken link removed to https://www.lopistoves.com/products/wood/premium-steel-wood-inserts/)

 

[bholler]

I don't know where you are on this project but like you I would do everything in my power and financial ability to get an insert in there safely and legally. I had trouble finding where in your manual where it says no insert allowed. Lots about if you alter it you void the warranty.
Lopi makes inserts that has Majestic on its list of approved zc fireplaces it can be used in
Zero-Clearance (Metal) Fireplace Requirements  Must be manufactured by one of the following manufacturers:
• Marco • Majestic • Heatilator • Preway • Tempco • Superior • Heat N Glo • Lennox • Martin • Monesson

(broken link removed to https://www.lopistoves.com/products/wood/premium-steel-wood-inserts/)

The fireplace manual says only use components and accessories listed in the manual for use with this majestic fireplace. Another manufacturer can't over ride that. An insert can't be put in there legally.

 

[hoot]

The fireplace manual says only use components and accessories listed in the manual for use with this majestic fireplace. Another manufacturer can't over ride that. An insert can't be put in there legally.

That's why I feel fortunate the Superior manual specifically allows inserts that are approved by the insert manufacturer for Superior ZC's. It's almost like Majestic simply didn't go the extra mile to evaluate an insert installed in their units probably for liability reasons. When I read "components and accessories", imho an insert isn't a component or an accessory. I think they are talking about people installing contraptions and/or unauthorized replacement parts. They simply do not address inserts. If this was my issue I would call Majestic. At least ask about it.

 

[bholler]

That's why I feel fortunate the Superior manual specifically allows inserts that are approved by the insert manufacturer for Superior ZC's. It's almost like Majestic simply didn't go the extra mile to evaluate an insert installed in their units probably for liability reasons. When I read "components and accessories", imho an insert isn't a component or an accessory. I think they are talking about people installing contraptions and/or unauthorized replacement parts. They simply do not address inserts. If this was my issue I would call Majestic. At least ask about it.

An insert is considered an accessory. They are not allowed by the manual for their specific fireplace. The only way around it would be to get majestic to give a written addendum to their manual.

Very few prefabs allow inserts and supposedly ul is rewriting the standard so none are allowed unless they are specifically tested and listed as a unit with every part specified.

Most superior fireplaces don't allow inserts either