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30% tax credits on new stoves

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by semipro, Mar 1, 2009.

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  1. Highbeam

    Highbeam Minister of Fire

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    I got the email from corporate woodstock to come buy a stove. They seem to be very excited about selling their stoves and also being first to the party. Good for them.

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  2. MishMouse

    MishMouse Minister of Fire

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    Info from the Harmanstoves website

    http://www.harmanstoves.com/tax-credit.asp

    Apparently the Oakwood and the TL-300 will qualify for the credit.

    To bad I bought mine in 2008 instead of 2009, but I feel the savings made up for it.
  3. Wet1

    Wet1 Minister of Fire

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    Better read a little closer - "If the IRS accepts the recommendations of the Hearth, Patio & Barbeque Association and the Environmental Protection Agency..."
  4. CrappieKeith

    CrappieKeith New Member

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    I think there's a lot of putting the cart in front of the horse going on with these manufactures saying they they are going to be ok for the credit when the rules have not been set forth yet. Anything to make a buck!
    Anyone can say anything....still does'nt make it true.

    NOTE>>>>>>>>>”If the IRS accepts the recommendations of the Hearth, Patio & Barbeque Association and the Environmental Protection Agency...”

    If is a might important word here.
  5. tradergordo

    tradergordo Minister of Fire

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    To the previous two posters - I'm not sure you got the message I just posted - but the rules have been finalized as described. That said, I do think there is some "cart before the horse" going on when manufacturers are making assumptions that their stoves will qualify before they have actually gone though the formal testing/certification process. But apparently some manufacturers have already had their stoves tested using the exact criteria the EPA is requiring now for this tax credit, so they can reasonably say that their stoves will pass.
  6. Wet1

    Wet1 Minister of Fire

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    http://www.hpba.org/index.php?id=34

    2009 Tax Credit Information – Important New Details

    Included in the 2009 Economic Stimulus legislation signed into law by President Obama on February 17, 2009, is a 30% (up to $1,500) consumer tax credit in 2009 and 2010 for the purchase of a 75% efficient biomass-burning stove as measured using a lower heating value. The Hearth, Patio & Barbecue Association (HPBA) and the Pellet Fuels Institute (PFI), succeeded in improving the tax credit to promote renewable energy and help consumers fight rising home heating costs.

    The tax credit provisions in this new legislation contain improvement amendments to the legislation passed in October 2008. The major changes made were an extension of the credit to 2010 and an increase of the credit from $300 to 30% of the total cost.

    Guidelines for determining what stoves meet the efficiency requirements to qualify for the credit or how a manufacturer will qualify their products are determined by the U.S. Department of the Treasury and the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). The tax credit took effect January 1, 2009, though the IRS has not issued the guidelines. These guidelines are expected by March 31, 2009, however the credit applies to all qualifying stoves sold in 2009 and 2010. HPBA will keep the industry informed on the status of the guidelines for qualifying stoves. For the latest information, check the HPBA website, www.hpba.org, for critical developments.

    Tax Credit FAQs

    Q: What is a federal consumer tax credit?
    A: Consumers claim the credit on their federal income tax form at the end of the year. The credit then increases the tax refund or decreases the amount the taxpayer has to pay.

    Note: With regard to tax credits vs. tax deductions, in general, a tax credit is more valuable than a similar tax deduction. A tax credit reduces the tax you pay, dollar-for-dollar. Tax deductions - such as those for home mortgages and charitable giving - lower your taxable income.

    Q: When does this tax credit go into effect and how long will it last?
    A: The tax credit goes into effect January 1, 2009 and is valid only for the purchase of a qualifying biomass-burning stove in 2009 and 2010. The sales receipt must indicate that the purchase was made between January 1, 2009 and December 31, 2010. If a retailer sells a stove before the list of qualifying stoves is made public, the retailer must keep a complete record of the sale (name and full contact information) so the purchaser can be notified.

    Q: Who is determining the tax credit guidelines for the qualifying units?
    A: The Department of the Treasury, and specifically, the IRS.

    Q: Will other wood and solid-fuel appliances (like inserts, EPA-certified wood-burning fireplaces and outdoor wood heaters) qualify for the tax credit?
    A: This legislation includes only 75% efficient biomass-burning stoves. In communication with the IRS, HPBA requested that inserts be included, but no confirmation has been received.

    Q: Do all pellet stoves qualify for the tax credit?
    A: We do not know at this time. In a letter to the IRS, we recommended that all pellet stoves be included because EPA has previously assigned a default efficiency rating sufficient to qualify pellet appliances. However, we do not have a confirmation from the U.S. Department of the Treasury or the IRS about whether they will accept or reject this recommendation.

    Q: Why was 75% efficiency selected?
    A: The 75% efficiency number was approved by the U.S. Congress in 2005 as part of the Energy Policy Act and was used again for this tax credit. Unfortunately, with a truncated timeline of the legislation that included this tax credit, we were not able to change the number to reflect a more realistic efficiency rating.

    Q: How will the 75% efficiency requirement be determined?
    A: The 2009 Economic Stimulus legislation, signed into law on February 17, 2009, stated that a lower heating value will be used to measure the efficiency of a biomass-burning stove. HPBA has provided the IRS with extensive information on product efficiency. This method will include a broader range of efficient biomass products for the tax credit and be consistent with the original legislative intent.

    Q: How will a consumer know that a product is certified?
    A: The manufacturer will have to certify that its product meets or exceeds the IRS efficiency requirements. A manufacturer’s certification is a signed statement from the manufacturer certifying that the product qualifies for the tax credit. The IRS encourages manufacturers to provide these certifications on their websites to facilitate identification of qualified products. Tax payers must keep a copy of a certification statement for their records, but do not have to submit a copy with their tax return.

    Q: What should a retailer and consumer do while waiting for qualifying information?
    A: Keep exact records of any sale or purchase. It is imperative that retailers keep records of sales and buyers should save all receipts for payment along with stove manufacturer and model information.

    Q: How does the language in this legislation differ from what was passed in October 2008?
    A: The new legislation 1) increases the tax credit from $300 to 30% of the total cost of a biomass-burning stove, 2) extends the credit to purchases in 2010, and 3) measures the stove’s efficiency based on the lower heating value.
  7. CrappieKeith

    CrappieKeith New Member

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    "But apparently some manufacturers have already had their stoves tested using the exact criteria the EPA is requiring now for this tax credit, so they can reasonably say that their stoves will pass. "

    The EPA is not setting this requirement.The IRS is I believe...could be wrong but when I called the EPA they said to contact the IRS as they will beissuing the criteria.

    reasonably say that their stoves will pass....we are UL listed.UL does not list a furnace under 75% ,but we will not go out on that ledge until the criteria has been set forth.
    Saying that they think, maybe and or if is being a bit presumptious.
  8. tradergordo

    tradergordo Minister of Fire

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    They are out, and it was by March 31, 2009. It was also by March 12. :)
  9. kork

    kork New Member

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    Anything heard from Jotul?
  10. Harley

    Harley Minister of Fire

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    Certainly this isn't meant to be knocking Woodstock, or any other manufacturer that references the potential for the credit..... However to me, to aggressively advertise and hold out a "carrot" (that they don't even have yet) is irresponsible.

    If any of the Companies are certain that their stoves will pass the EPA (and more importantly, IRS) tests, then they should put in writing that in the event the stove you purchased doesn't qualify, and we told you it would, then we'll cut you a check for 30% (up to $1,500). Other than that - pure speculation and advertising B-S.

    So, buy the stove you want, get the best deal you can, and if it eventually qualifies - then that's an additional bonus.

    I won't insert my whole opinion of the stimulus package, but my guess is that getting the Cert. for a wood stove might be a little tough. I hope manufacturers aren't looking to see how the sales go with the "bait", and then abandon the commitment to certify if sales aren't as good as they had hoped.
  11. gyrfalcon

    gyrfalcon Minister of Fire

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    Just to be clear, in no known alternate universe is the IRS going to be carrying out fuel-efficiency testing on woodstoves. EPA is arranging for that, as it should, and IRS will rely on their data. If EPA is pushing callers off to IRS, it's because they're not set up to deal with the public on this kind of thing.

    I also think you're being a litlte harsh on the stove manufacturers we've seen dealing with this so far. They've laid out detailed FAQs and have been pretty clear that it's not a done deal until their testing is done and they have certification in hand to give to customers. Woodstock, of course, has no dealers, and therefore can control the message given to customers, and I don't see them as being likely to try to bamboozle anybody.

    Obviously, the whole situation bears careful watching, but this early into it, I'm not seeing any big red flags yet.
  12. jmhpsu93

    jmhpsu93 New Member

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    Here's what I got from Hearthstone...not sure this would stand up in court. :)

    Yes I does

    -----Original Message-----
    From: e-mail@yahoo.com
    Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:03 PM
    To: Inquiry
    Subject: Contact Form Submission




    Comments:
    I recently purchased/installed a Phoenix wood stove. Is it going to
    qualify for the 2009 tax credit?u
  13. gyrfalcon

    gyrfalcon Minister of Fire

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    Ugh. Now that is a bad sign.
  14. Harley

    Harley Minister of Fire

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    I agree it bears careful watching, but again, I think some of the advertising is putting the cart before the horse at this point in time, and yes, I realize the IRS isn't going to be doing any testing (God help us if they got into that). Obviously people should read the details in the FAQ's and make a well informed buying decision as with anything else. What I do believe is misleading and irresponsible are the "headlines" in the addvertisements which would indicate the certification is already there (you have to read further to find that it isn't quite there yet).

    These would be the some of the statements I'm referring to:

    "At long last, here’s some truly good economic news!

    Double Savings during our Best-Ever off-Season Discount "

    "Our best prices for the year, plus the 30% Tax Credit
    can help you save on high efficiency soapstone stove
    and save money on your heating bills!"

    "With all the unfortunate economic news these days, it’s a pleasure to give you this great news: in February, 2009 President Obama signed into law a 30% Tax Credit for high efficiency wood stoves. The combination of Clearance Sale prices, the 30% Tax Credit, and low freight rates makes this a “once-in-a-lifetime” deal, compliments ..."

    None of those statements indicate a the possibility that their stoves wouldn't qualify, or "subject to" any sort of final certification. I do hope they and the others are able to get the cert.
  15. CrappieKeith

    CrappieKeith New Member

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    Exactly....well said men!
  16. jdinspector

    jdinspector Feeling the Heat

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    You bring up a valid point. However, one thing that hasn't been said about Woodstock, in particular, is that they have a 6 month return policy. I'm sure this in effect if the stove doesn't pass the testing. How do I know? I ordered my stove earlier this week and they're even taking it a step further than 6 months. I was told that they'll extend the return policy until December 31,2009. Don't forget, that includes THEM paying for return shipping. So, with this sale they're having, my worst case scenario would be the $100 I'm paying to have the stove shipped to me. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

    I can't speak about other manufacturers, but I'd say this puts a little pressure on them to step up. Mind you, I have no allegiance to Woodstock, I just think they they have "it" figured out in this particular case. I had considered Hearthstone stoves, but was never convinced that their stove was better than Woodstock. I'm a bit concerned about the size of the Fireview (may be too small for me), but that's a chance I'm willing to take. I think the $100 gamble (and some time for me to install the stove) is a pretty cheap gamble.
  17. DAKSY

    DAKSY Patriot Guard Rider Staff Member

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    Here's the official list of qualifying units from Hearthstone...

    Equinox #8000
    Bennington #8350
    Phoenix #8612
    Heritage #8021
    Homestead #8570-H
    Homestead #8570-F
    Tribute #8040
    Shelburne #8370
    Craftsbury #8390
    Clydesdale #8490B
    Clydesdale #8491
    Morgan #8470B
    Bari #8170
    Heritage Pellet #8090

    This info was contained in correspondence to Hearthstone Authorized dealers...
  18. johnn

    johnn New Member

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    Not a data base on information here, but I`ve been trying to educate myself on what so many allready know, and I find that its slow but rewarding!!I dont think the manufacturers are trying to "hoodwink" the consumers, however yes , they should be offering to cover the total package if in fact , all things don`t work out as inticipated, since their sale was based on there initiative.
    Emission particle testing started on 05 for heavily poluted areas,and the reviewable outcomes vs solutions aren`t scheduled until 2013. Ten years ago they tested wood burners and all the parties couldn`t agree on using Europien, Canadian, Phase 1 or Phase 2 testing procedures. primarily because there is no controll over real world burns. The type of wood, its moisture, the altitude of burn, exhaust set up, wood storage for curing duration, suppliers of "SEASONED" wood, upgraded stoves in homes, the cold fire, duration of burns, Maintenance of stoves to keep optimul performance, inexperienced burners ect.ect.
    These are not appliances the have fixed regulators with matched orifices to a determined purity of fuel you just hook up and any Joe Blow gets a standard result! They have their hands full and I for one ,,hope its not another rating company, stamping its AAA approval on a COD package because Wall Street demands more and more investment packages!!!
    I for one am just one person trying to use alternate fuel to heat my wife, and see my grandbabys feet more often. I dont want a 30% refund if it means any future wood burners are going to have to pay $600 more after 2010. Perhaps we should monitor retail prices and see what the future holds for them?
  19. CrappieKeith

    CrappieKeith New Member

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    Just curious....did you get that in writting?
  20. gyrfalcon

    gyrfalcon Minister of Fire

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    Boy, I'm not following your reasoning here. I follow for sure about the wife and the grandbaby feet, but I don't get why a price increase would somehow the fault of the current tax credit program.

    The manufacturers will charge for their stoves as much as they can get people to pay for them. That's called capitalism!
  21. CrappieKeith

    CrappieKeith New Member

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    That's not rue for all manufacturers.
    We make multi fuel furnaces that could and should be way more then they are ,but because there are others that charge less we charge less to stay competitive in our pricing.
    Some folks could care what's in a furnace.
    The bottom line is what does it cost.

    I would only think that pricing should stand pat .We have a glut of steel with the lack of cars being built & appliances for new homes not being made because of the saging economy.
    Sure there's the ole supply vs demand ,but you also have to look at other factors.
  22. Highbeam

    Highbeam Minister of Fire

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    "Heritage Pellet #8090"

    There's a pellet stove?
  23. johnn

    johnn New Member

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    Not sure , I understand myself at times! :-/ I have no clue what the average increase per manufacturer price goes up each year, just curious if they will increase more than the standard average, because the consuer is getting a stimulus which gives a new sells angle. I wouldnt be in the market for a number of stoves without this credit, and would hate to see down the road them being even further out of reach.
  24. CrappieKeith

    CrappieKeith New Member

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    1 point being over looked is this.
    What does liquid fuel cost vs solid fuel?
    I also know different solid fuels run at different rates. Coal vs wood logs vs pellets vs corn all vary, but there is a pay back as solid fuel typically is cheaper then liquid fuel.
    I burn wood logs at $110 per full cord of oak. That cord makes close to 250 gallons worth of propane.My propane this year floated around 2-2.50 a gallon.
    So at the end of the year I'll see about $3000 in a check I'll write myself instead of giving it away to the gas guy.
    If those numbers stayed constant over 10 year ...that's 30,000.
    So buying a well built effient furnace that pays for itself in the 1st year is a great investment.In my mind if it cost an extra 600 to 1000 more ...mute point because I'll recoup that in no time.
    There is of coarse coming up with the original investment. Spent properly it will be a great investment.
  25. Todd

    Todd Minister of Fire

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    They must of retested their stoves because their current literature states most of those stoves don't meet the 75% efficiency rating. I think this whole 30% credit thingy is a great thing, it's going to push manufactures to standardize an efficiency test and make better stoves.
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