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Cat vs Non-cat

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by Beno, Mar 6, 2007.

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  1. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    I asked this same question. What if a cat was placed in the everburn chamber. I got a smile then then news of the invention of super cat combustor came out
    I did not ask about a new improved combustor. Vc vollenteerred the additional imformation. I then asked their plans for the Intrepid II? Are you going to introduce everburn to them?
    Again a smile but no further info. Let me interpet and guess here. The cat combustor is small in the Intrepid II, meaning it would be the easiest one to introduce the super combustor to
    The least effected by cost. No VC did not confirm this but they did not deny it either. I mean their head of engineering took the model parts and positioned them explaining the everburn technology which carries a life time warranty. This also was illustrated on a black board before the tour and the modeling during the tour.

    One has to understand under 2 grams per hour is considered good real good .7 has never been done and this w is done without a cat combustor What would a super combustor do in that secondary burn chamber? Before the Epa listed all non cat stoves at 63% effeciencies VC had listed the everburn Encore and tested it to 82.5% effecient This is where common oil burners and pellet stoves opperate. Remember the secondary burn chamber is like a mini gassification burning chamber. The feeling I got VC was very proud at developing the cleanest burning stoves ever but they were also researching to improve on that. Not just wood stoves but also in ZC fireplaces. Some how Englander got their NC-30 down to 1.6 grams per hour that;s amazing for that size firebox. BB is reaping the benifits of that technology.

    Credit also goes to PE the summit is not just squeaking by the 7.5 gph. they with EBT, have calmed that beast down to 1/2 the required gph. I am also willing to bet, they too are not sitting pat and are working to improve their design. A current post points out that there exist an atti wood burning forum. I think we should applaud all efforts to introduce new technology for cleaner burning. I know as with any new technology and designs, there will be some glitches, bumps in the road. It is my hope they are worked out and negativity does not stiffull inovations.

    A better title to this post might be cleaner burning and not cat vs non cat. I do not resent PE stoves their quality or market place. I resent them being pushed into every post here and as the only alternative stove out there. I'm not alone with this thinking or the following post would not have thousands of views Some have situations ,that require rear exit exhaust, suggestion a top exit PE product to that situation is useless. A few PE owners have dominated so many post they are suffering from backlash from others tired of hearing it. Or hearing their choices are inferior, because they did not purchase a PE product.. They even initate post to try to discredit owners who purchased Woodstock stoves or any other stove but a PE stove. They are also quick to pass negative comments to other manufactures trying to bring cleaner burning to the market when any other manufacture has a dis gruntled consumer. this too adds to a backlash effect.

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  2. mikeathens

    mikeathens New Member

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    Catalytics are siginificantly more efficient. Period. But, like everything else, if one is convinced that a non-cat is more efficient or looks nicer or is easier to operate (etc. etc.), then that's what theyre going to go with. If someone drives a huge hummer everywhere and think Toyota Prius' are dangerous or "stupid" or less efficient, that person is going to continue driving the Hummer. "no damn liberal is gonna make me drive in some sardine can".

    Deal with it. Make your choices. Facts are facts. Ignore those that don't fit your needs, embrace those that do. It's the American way.
  3. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    My goodness, it must be Cabin Fever time!

    Spring will be here soon.

    I think the worst thing one can do in a public forum is to bring in their own bias. Sure, experience is important, but bias is not! It is not a matter of VC vs. PE vs. Woodstock, etc....I'm certain they all have some good stoves. In fact, the point is often exactly that. Way back when I started selling stoves, I had customers walking in the store who were 100% brainwashed by the VC story. I use that word "brainwashed" because in this case it was true to an extent. These customers would come in telling me how their new Resolute with the coal kit was the best coal stove made...and I would laugh inside knowing that it was one of the worst (a retrofit that hardly worked). But the fact is that VC had spent more money on marketing - in this case direct to the customer (here's a tidbit, the President of Woodstock worked at VC then - so did some Harman bigwigs!).....

    When it comes to measuring grams per hour or number of stoves made - well, I can only say one thing - Sam Adams beer does not make the most, and their price per bottle is not the lowest. Now Elk understands perfectly.

    The forum is about helping people get the most out of their stoves - whether they have an old Fisher or a new VC. Let's try to keep it positive and not play King of the Hill. I know my dad can lick your dad, but we'll save that for later.

    Anyway, the stove thing goes a lot like this " No one ever wants to admit they spent $800 on a turkey" or at least that was my take back when Consolidated Dutchwest sold more stoves than any other manufacturer...and they had perhaps the worst stoves made at the time! But the theory was true, and still holds true. You don't always get what you pay for - sometimes it is more, sometimes less and sometimes you were sold a bill of goods.
  4. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Well put Elk. Also to be noted: Quad 3100 & 4300 milleniums - 1.26 gph + Isle Royale and Yosemite coming in at under 3gph without everburn.Hearthstone Homested comes in a 1.9 gph. Kudos are well deserved to the stove manufacturers that have made great progress in cleaning up emissions.
  5. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    BEGReen I'm trying to defuse PE vs everbody else. All the negativity about cat stoves or non PE stoves are from ones that never opperated one. I did not initiate this post
    I only used VC as an example, because that is where my knowledge base is. I had direct contact to ask the questions I did At no point did I say VC was better than any other manufacturer only that they are trying to manufacture cleaner stoves. And I hope all manufactures are trying to do the same. WE have to burn cleaner and be more resopnsible

    Anyone that is trying to interpet and twist the meaning of my last post to VC being better than manufacturer xyz missed the entire point.
    The point missed is efforts to cleaner enviormentaly friendlier burning.
  6. TMonter

    TMonter Minister of Fire

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    I don't see the hard numbers backing that up. I see an efficiency gain of 2-5% on average which with a highly variable fuel like cordwood translates into no real world difference.
  7. Gunner

    Gunner New Member

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    Elk, ever since VC wrote the letter about glowing red stoves being normal you have had a bug up your arse over PE because people were critical of them....what do you expect, every other mfg says glowing red is overfiring...a statement like that is going to take some heat.

    First it was PE's produce to many gph
    then there are not enough dealers
    they are not made in the USA
    they don't make enough stoves (VC makes more in 2 weeks)
    they don't have any small heaters in their lineup
    they cost to much
    no rear venting, they might outsource some of the manufacturing and on and on and on..........sound familiar. So it there has been an unusual amount of PE boasting lately it has been a result of you grasping at straws to try and tear them down.


    That being said, it doesn't mean we can't put all that behind us and kiss and make up :kiss: :lol:
  8. Rhone

    Rhone Minister of Fire

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    Although I agree that some PE owners can often times be presumptuous, I'd like to thank them they certainly have taken notice and toning it down. This post backfired, I saw what I believe cat owners stretching it now. I'm thinking "We've got 2 groups instead of 1 now" :)

    Anyway, I too can get annoyed sometimes and hope this isn't a new trend. Todd deserves credit, his posts were well written and weren't a stretch. Todds Fireview, and finding out how his cat configuration is almost like a hyrbrid, I think that system would be more efficient than a regular cat like on the VC's or a secondary burn like mine. I know Todds been commenting on the fact he's been getting higher efficiencies since moving to a cat, but the more I think about the configuration he has with it being sort of a hybrid the more I think that setup is better than a regular cat as well. I honestly don't think a regular cat system is any more than 3-5% more efficient than a secondary burn over its life, but the Fireview with that configuration, the more I think about it the more I'm convinced he's got something better than anyone else. I wonder if that's the new direction with cat configurations... secondary burn units may become a thing of the past :) I'm kidding of course, but I think Woodstock is onto something.
  9. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    I did not drag Vc into this post I never mentioned cost I don't know what they cost I don't know what blaze king's cost lopi cost unless I looked it up
    I never said anything negative because they are not made in USA / America. In fact I happen to like our neighbors to the North. I have no problem with Canadian built
    True I support USA manufacturing but I said that long before any PE debate, nothing new there. What I have a problem with, is sweatshop outsourced products, that eliminated American Jobs
    That's a big issue with me. I admit I do not shop Walmart

    I think availability is a valid question, especially if recomended everyday and then some. People should be able to see what all the hype is about?

    If they are that good then they should be available for viewing. Nothing negative there .unless someone want to twist it around and try to factor perceived what my motives are.

    Rear venting option is valid ,not all location can be top vented. That's only a negative if you have a situation that requires a rear venting stove. Nothing about a value of quality issue there

    Today with gobal warming, GPH is an issue. The question I asked is how can a stove costing 3x less produce 1/2 the emissions. A question that has not been answered yet

    You got me on the two weeks production one that was slanted I admit..

    I thought this was a cat vs non cat issue again Pe loyalist has dragged and pushed its way into this question.

    Start a new post if you want to debate the merits of PE its manufacturing process or any thing new you can add. It does no belong in every post
  10. MountainStoveGuy

    MountainStoveGuy New Member

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    this thread has exasuted itself. Like craig said, lets keep it positive folks. These types of threads always end like this. I think there is plenty of documented material on cat vs non cat to research in the archives. The original poster got more then he asked for. This thread is closed.
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