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Central Boiler 1400 vs 2400

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by Mass Heat, Feb 24, 2012.

  1. martyinmi

    martyinmi Member

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    Brian,
    Thanks for pointing those inconsistencies out. I noticed the disparities quite a while back also, and me being me, I asked why they were there, and how can they be explained away, and the answer that I received was as follows:

    "The 97% efficiency rating pertains to the combustion efficiency as far as the units ability to completely burn available flammable gasses present during gasification".

    I'm not impressed with that type of advertising at all, and it sounds like you are not either. In CB's defense, I will also comment that every manufacturer out there(whether American,Canadian,or European,both indoor and outdoor gasifiers) who publish literature that I have taken the time to read all publish efficiency statistics that are misleading at best. An honest marketing strategist employed by any manufacturer appears to be an exception, not a rule.

    I see that you have taken the high road on your site by giving your personal realistic efficiency ratings(80-85%) as opposed to going with your manufacturers inflated ratings(90%). Kudos to you for that. You would be a trustworthy dealer.

    All that being said, which unit(1400 or 2400) do you suppose might serve Massheat the best? (I am trying to stay on topic and be helpful without hijacking)

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  2. Mass Heat

    Mass Heat New Member

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    Brian, What would estimate the price of your system to be? As you probably are aware Mass supposedly does not allow non ASME stamped units for pressurized setups. Trying to get approval from the town, but if not successful my options are limited. For the record I appreciate all the input, especially real life experiences.
  3. stee6043

    stee6043 Minister of Fire

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    I suspect the mechanical engineering gods would prefer you say "one third the size" as opposed to three times smaller. Don't want to confuse the laypeople!

    Good post, nonetheless. Comparing sizes of the fireboxes with output and "efficiency claims" is a great idea. Especially when talking about "high efficiency" boilers. Everyone knows efficiency is killed when a boiler idles. And having a half cord capacity on your boiler firebox can only mean one thing...more idling...in most cases.
  4. wishiwasfishingguy

    wishiwasfishingguy New Member

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    effecta sales guy,

    I'm going to be careful too, but I take offense to your grandstanding! When I purchased my E Classic, I was shown the numbers right off the EPA's website. They aren't made up numbers, they were right there along with all the other companies that tested under the EPA's test methods, for a true side by side model comparison. I used this data in my research of these furnaces and it was a factor in my decision to purchase the E Classic. I am now on my 4th winter and couldn't be more satisfied! Is yours tested to the same EPA standard?? I also preferred to keep my 3,500 square foot house and garage heated with a wood furnace that sits outside, no mess inside and I also didn't want to give up one stall in my garage to a gigantic storage tank. You might want to check your "FACTS" before making such "partial truth" accusations!
  5. Como

    Como Minister of Fire

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    The EPA standard they pulled as they acknowledged it was flawed?

    They were effectively made up numbers.
  6. huffdawg

    huffdawg Minister of Fire

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    I dont find Brians posts "Grandstanding" I find them quite informative, also it looks like he spends quite some time doing his research.Does anyone that reads his posts have to buy an Effecta Lambda 35. "NO". I am so glad I stumbled across this site and did spend quite some time researching otherwise I might of bought a smoke house and my neighbours would of scalped me .
  7. flyingcow

    flyingcow Minister of Fire

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    I agree, he wasn't grand standing. just being helpful.
  8. martyinmi

    martyinmi Member

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    Brian was doing a bit of grandstanding, and you all know it. He was pointing out inconsistencies that are apparent from a competing manufacturer. Hopefully everyone can see the same inconsistencies his product's manufacturer has claimed and that he himself has disproved.

    huffdawg,
    I'll wager that with your system you have more of a smoke(in the) house than fishing guy does.
  9. goosegunner

    goosegunner Minister of Fire

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    Marty,

    What part of Michigan are you from? City?

    Anywhere near any Effecta installs?

    gg
  10. martyinmi

    martyinmi Member

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    I am in the middle of the lower peninsula, 20 minutes north of Lansing. I would have no idea if there are any Effecta installs near me. I have seen Wood Gun and an Empyre install, and I am impressed. I would love to see an install with a lot of mass storage(1000+ gallons). I would like to have a small indoor storage tank just for DHW in the summer months.
    Are you in MI? If you are, I'd like to see your set-up sometime.
  11. Karl_northwind

    Karl_northwind Member

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    We all (contractors and installers) deal with products where the advertising and marketing guys compete with the engineering staff to have the "right" numbers published on the literature. From the engineering side, the "right" number is the numbers we can expect to see in the real world, and from the marketing side, it's whatever the best number is that you can put on the literature and not have enough pissed off customers to cause a backlash or lawsuit. It's the part of a responsible dealer/distributor/installer to be able to give the best available information to the end consumer.
    Unfortunately, the manufacturer usually puts all the literature/website info together, and they don't have to deal with the informed end user like the folks on this list.
    and all the other manufacturers do the same thing as far as publishing the "best of all possible worlds" data, so the manufacturer that publishes real world numbers is punished in the marketplace of moderately to minimally informed consumers who look at price and the published efficiency numbers with no knowledge of what's behind them.
    Great list, I'm learning lots.

    BTW there are a handful of Effecta installs in the upper lower MI.

    karl
  12. goosegunner

    goosegunner Minister of Fire

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    No I am in WI, but if you were ever near by I would be glad to show you.

    One of my friends who runs a heatmor OWB uses a buffer tank in his basement. It seems to work and gives him a reserve in the house because he has. 350' run one way.


    You wouldn't happen to be the Portage and Main dealer in the town north of Lansing would you?

    gg
  13. ALASKAPF185

    ALASKAPF185 Member

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    Wow talk about uninformed " UN truths" ....

    Its not grandstanding when you can back it up. Its funny when you see these giant piles of wood and huge OWB's when the same house can be heated with an "engineered " (hydronic heating engineer) system using half the wood and footprint. If there is no ASME/IBR plate rating on the unit then it can make any claim it wants. They also can write their own test procedure in a way so that any number they claim is actually correct or "FACT" as some would like to believe. As long as they can pay the EPA enuff money to accept their procedure, it will be approved as such. I know cause I have first hand knowledge. Its funny how that little 35 kw boiler or 120kbtu can heat a huge home. 5000 square is alot, and I've seen many other examples from properly piped and designed systems with great efficiency. Most boilers are oversized, and I'll go out on a limb and say close to 90% of them, other than those that are newer and used a heatloss to size, instead of the IBR plate method ( sizing the new boiler by what the old boiler size was). I wonder how many OWB salesmen use HL's to size systems and explain what it means to the customer. You don't have to size this way as long as you understand why. But this should be a part of the HO's decision.

    You can have the best high efficiency equipment on the market, but if its not installed correct its worse than a properly installed piece of junk. There are alot of requirements to achieve claimed ratings and when it comes to anything over 80% you only have to miss 1 to ruin it. There's burn efficiency, system effiency, and the big one, its ability to transfer energy from fuel to usable BTU's. Most are just claiming burn, since smoke and emissions is the big concern for the softies.

    Back to the OP, 94K heatloss is huge, which would mean that on cold days that conventional boiler never shuts off and probably has a had time keeping up even on a mild day. For example a 4000 sqft 100+ year old farm house with zero insulation or single pane windows. I would start with a HLoss if you haven't done one yet. Then also include what you "PLAN" on heating also. Have a diagram of your system , and then you should be able to get a somewhat accurate idea of what fits you best. If a salesman shoots a model size off the hip, without this info, then thats all you have.

    Atleast everyone has good intentions, when they are trying to help.
  14. huffdawg

    huffdawg Minister of Fire

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    You lose and you can send me a case of beer(and not lite beer)...LoL..The only smoke I get in my house is from 2 of my neighbours that have wood stoves.It gets sucked into my HRV if the winds are blowing the right way. I can tell when they put wood in there stoves and then damp them down so they can put smoke more efficiently into the neighbourhood air.

    When someone is said to be “grandstanding,†it means that he or she is putting on an ostentatious performance with the goal of impressing people, and that the performance includes a great deal of exaggeration. Essentially, someone is putting on a show when he or she is grandstanding, often to the detriment of the message that he or she is trying to convey. A wide number of people can be accused of grandstanding; generally, any public figure who abuses his or her position to get a point across may be considered to be grandstanding, and private citizens who indulge in a bit of hyperbole may also find themselves accused of grandstanding.

    The term references a grandstand, a large amphitheater used for performances. The idea is that when people perform in an amphitheater, they are forced to over-act so that they can be seen by people in the upper levels; without being extremely vocal and obvious, the nuances of the performance might be miss. When someone is accused of grandstanding, it means that a show is being put on which is perhaps a bit too excessive for the venue.

    Often, grandstanding involves a great deal of exaggeration, often out of a genuine desire to promote a cause with passion. Grandstanding techniques can also be used in an attempt to intimidate people; for example, a prosecutor might grandstand in the hopes of cowing a witness on the stand, or to encourage a suspect to consider making a plea, rather than going to court.

    After reading this definition . I find Brian "NOT GUILTY" of grandstanding.

    Huff
  15. Gasifier

    Gasifier Minister of Fire

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    Okay guys. That will be enough argueing. Or I am going to have to delete this thread all together. Oh, wait. That's right. I'm not a moderator. :lol:
    What was I thinking? Alright then. Stop acting like children. You never see me behaving like that on Hearth.com. :roll: Oh, wait. That's right. Okay. Alright already. I'm sorry IseeDeadBTUs, Fred61. I mean it. I love you guys man! I mean men. A-hem. Hey, how do you turn this cool smiley thing off?!

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  16. martyinmi

    martyinmi Member

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    huffdawg,
    I like the definition of "grandstanding" you choose from your google search. It came from wisegeek.com, almost word for word. It is fitting.
    goose,
    Thanks for the invite. I WILL take you up on it if I'm ever in your neighborhood.
    I am not a P&M dealer. We received a dealer discount because three of us each bought a 250. There is no way I could ever make the time to sell OWB's and still fulfill my obligations to my family and my job.
    karl,
    Who would I get a hold of to see one in action before the warmer weather sets in? I'm not interested in the boiler, but the Lamda controller sounds pretty cool. I've inquired about the costs associated with incorporating one into my system, but as of yet no one has PM'd me.

    Thanks,

    Marty

    Edit- gasifier, you are a nut. Too funny :lol:
  17. Como

    Como Minister of Fire

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    If you ever get to Colorado come and see me.
  18. Armaton

    Armaton Member

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    Marty,

    After reading your posts on how happy you were with your P&M 250, I watched the video on it and was curious about cost and availability. So I called P&M to get some info on them. They gave me the name and phone number for a Marty Felpaush, from St. John's, MI. as the closest dealer to me that I could get literature and order a boiler from. If that is you, you may want to contact P&M to correct their error!

    Armaton
  19. Gasifier

    Gasifier Minister of Fire

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    Well thank you Como. I would really like to see those Garns and your hotel. Oh, wait. Was that invite for me?

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  20. huffdawg

    huffdawg Minister of Fire

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    It does look like there is a bit of beer tipping going on at the Como Hotel by looking at your blog. Next time I come to Colorado i'd like to come see whats on tap! I mean have a look at your twin Garns.

    Huff
  21. martyinmi

    martyinmi Member

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    That is me. They don't refer potential customers to me, mainly just people who are having a hard time grasping the gasification process. I try to dissuade people from buying conventional OWB's while explaining the benefits of gasifyers.

    There is a large "Supercenter" in our state that currently sells P&M boilers, as well as three other brands, and to my knowledge they are the only dealer here.

    If you are serious about the cost and availability of a 250, send me a pm and I'll be sure that the proper guys get forwarded the information, or call the number and P&M will send you a price quote. If you don't understand the gasification process, include your telephone number and I'll do my best to explain it to you. If I can't help you, I have friends who sell Central Boiler and Empyre OWB's who will be able to help.
  22. EffectaBoilerUser (USA)

    EffectaBoilerUser (USA) Member

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    Marty,

    Maybe you should change you signature line to: "Working with Portage and Maine company to help educate and sell P&M products".

    By doing so would help other hearth.com members better understand why you are saying what you saying in your posts.

    Know that we all know that you are working closely with P & M (as is evidenced by the most recent post) it all makes sense!

    Brian
  23. goosegunner

    goosegunner Minister of Fire

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    Seems fair considering the remarks that have been tossed at Brian and others on the site that have chosen systems besides the OWB gasifier.

    gg
  24. martyinmi

    martyinmi Member

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    Brian,
    That is a very good idea. I'll have to re-word what you've suggested it to make it a bit more accurate. I'll throw Central Boiler and Empyre in there also, as I've made positive comments about their products also. I've spoken quite highly about Garn in the past too, so they should probably be thrown in the mix. Thank You for the suggestion! And I'm not being sarcastic-seriously, Thank You!

    Edit-Updated my signature to include all of my running saws and splitter brand also. Thanks again Brian!!!
  25. flyingcow

    flyingcow Minister of Fire

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    You sound a little sarcastic Marty....funny man.

    From the few CB boilers I've seen, the P and M are quite a few levels above the CB line. But on the P&M's all I've seen are the videos. Looks to be closer to a true gasser than the E-Classic.

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