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DIY Install HearthStone Clydesdale

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by bren582, Nov 4, 2008.

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  1. bren582

    bren582 Member

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    Loc:
    Monmouth County NJ
    Hello all,
    I am a new arrival to these parts with a standard masonry fireplace, been using it for years and even with the glass doors it’s a lost cause regarding heating anything unless your standing right in front of it.. I now understand why wing backed chairs were invented all those years ago LOL..

    I pulled the trigger on a Hearthstone Clydesdale insert currently on order and will install it myself. I am prepping the chimney and firebox while awaiting delivery of Hearthstone’s Equine offering.
    Some details:
    2000 Sqr Ft Ranch
    Firebox 42”w x 30”h x 30”`d
    Exterior Chimney 14 ft from top to damper opening

    The fireplace is a circa 1970’s monstrosity in my family room at one end of the house that opens to Kitchen followed by dinning room with 2 entry ways to living room and entry hall to the side or front of house. The bed rooms are at the other end down a center hall.
    I went with the Flex King Pro double wall liner with smooth interior and insulation kit. With the short chimney I figured smooth flow might help. I plan on lining the masonry firebox with sheetmetal insulated with ceramic wool between the sheet and the brick including the damper block off plate and flue top plate to create a dead air space for the insulated liner.

    The recent discussions surrounding fresh air intake has me thinking and left with more questions than answers. I have an ash pit. The chimney is on the outside of the house so the clean out door is outside.

    Is it worth the extra effort to install the OAK from the cleanout door to the firebox at the back of the inset I’m installing?

    Will I save much in warm house air going up the flue?

    I'm trying to wrap my head around the whole cold air drops/warm air rises thing. If the OAK terminates to the outside 2 feet lower than the fireplace will the cold outside air be drawn up into the firebox versus being drawn from the house air? note, the fireplace is on the windward side of the house with wind blowing against it most of the time and the house is moderately tight and insulated.

    I would like to have a better understanding on the outside air thing before I install my block off plates and seal up that ash pit door in the firebox. It seems that running some cheap flex vent from the cleanout door to the firebox would be an easy thing to do. I see no indication that the Clydesdale has a connection for an OAK so where does the air get drawn into the insert to go up the flue??

    Thanks for you input.. Adding a few pics as well for clarity sake..

    Attached Files:

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  2. bren582

    bren582 Member

    Joined:
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    Loc:
    Monmouth County NJ
    I could really use some feedback from the seasoned experts here.. If there are any Clydedale owners out there who could comment that would be appreciated as well. I am coming down to the wire on my install. I have read a great deal and still can't come to a conclusion concerning the following:

    The recent discussions surrounding fresh air intake has me concidering an outside air solution. The chimney is on the outside of the house so the clean out door is outside approx 2 feet below the firebox floor.

    Questions:
    Is it worth the extra effort to install an outside line from the cleanout door to the firebox ash door which will be at the back of the inset upon install?

    Will I save much in warm house air going up the flue by drawing from the outside air for combustion?

    Where does the insert draw air for cumbustion specific to my Clydesdale?

    The dealer has no answers and it seems impossible to actually talk to someone from hearthstone. I would like to have a better understanding on the outside air thing before I install my block off plates and seal up that ash pit door in the firebox.

    Thanks..
  3. thechimneysweep

    thechimneysweep Minister of Fire

    Joined:
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    Loc:
    Bellingham, WA
    The Clydesdale is designed to burn room air: the intake is in the air convection plenum under the viewing window, open to the room. If you introduce outside air to the existing fireplace's firebox, that air will need to flow around the outside of the Clydesdale's convection air plenum, then squeeze through any gaps between the surround panels and your fireplace facia and into the room before it can be drawn in by the combustion air intake.

    The resulting flow of cold outside air around the perimeter of the heat exchange plenum will cool the temperature of the heated air flowing through the plenum into the room, while introducing cold air directly into the room around the edges of your surround panels. I don't recommend it.

    Another consideration: unless your house is so tight that the roundabout combustion airflow path described above is the path of least resistance to the combustion air intake, It seems likely that you'd end up burning room air anyway.
  4. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    Toms the man, he said it perfectly.
    ON a side not, that is a sweet looking fireplace, Love the shape.
    Insert will look awesome in there. Even better with an arched surround to follow the shape of the fireplace.
  5. bren582

    bren582 Member

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    Thanks for the feedback Tom. I find it odd that the dealer sales people don't really know the product like folks here do.. The house is 30 yrs old and is not very tight. I will close it up as you suggest..

    Another concern I have is my chimney, Its on the short side at 14 feet measured from top to the damper plate level. Would I gain much in draft performance buy adding a few feet to it ?
    FYI:
    I have a 20 foot liner in there insulated since the Chimney is exposed to nature. I have 5 feet sticking out the top of the chimney and I'm thinking about adding some sort of surround in a 2-3ft section to lengthen the height before I cut the liner to fit.

    ====

    Thanks Hogwildz.. it's a mass of brick thats for sure.. Not a stick of wood to be found on it. I went with the cast rectangular surround. Arched surround would certainly look nice. I wish one was offered but I guess cost of producing one for a small market compared to rectangular makes it hard to justify with stove manufacturer's..

    I finished my damper block off plate and installed the liner yesterday.. I plan on painting the sheetmetal with high heat black paint as soon as the rain lets up..
  6. bren582

    bren582 Member

    Joined:
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    Loc:
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    My install odyssey continues. Making steady but slow progress. The insert is scheduled to be delivered in a weeks time.. Can't wait to receive it but first things first, I have to finish its new home..

    Finished installing the liner kit and did a dry run on the block off plate and heat shielding. Everything fits pretty good so far. I just finished painting the plates and should have them installed for real by the end of the weekend. I certainly couldn't have done it without the info afforded by this forum. Pictures tell this story best. More to come.

    Attached Files:

  7. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    Very nice. At 14' I think you will be fine. I would try that first, then add on if still needed. No sense making more work for yourself.
    Heat shield looks good, you do realize that it may buckle and make some noice as it expands & contracts? It is a big span for a pc of sheet metal.
    Not a big deal, might scare ya the first time it pops.
  8. bren582

    bren582 Member

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    Loc:
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    Thats a good point regarding expansion due to heat stress. For a 500 degree rise in temp on a 25 to 30 inch sheet we are looking at 2mm expansion.

    Any idea how hot the shield will get under normal use? there is a 5 or 6" clearence in the back and sides. I'm thinking that a floating installation might reduce any expansion related noise. Perhaps allow for some space for expansion by not bolting the bottom and side plates down, just mortar them in place to allow for a bit of expansion.. What do you think ?

    re:
    Delta L = (alpha)(delta T)(L)
    Where:
    delta L= total change in length, inches (total deformation)
    alpha = coefficient of thermal expansion (Steel Sheet alpha 0.000 0065")
    delta T = temperature change
    L = length in inches
  9. bren582

    bren582 Member

    Joined:
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    Loc:
    Monmouth County NJ
    More progress and a few issues to deal with, Nothing serious and this forum has helped in so many ways as I live and learn this install..

    The damper block plate is in and I decided to leave a few feet on the liner length, At least for now. Measuring a 10ft radius from the masonry chimney top shows 22 inches above the roof line at 10 Ft from the flue. I can't understand why the mason couldn't have thrown another flue tile and several course of brick up there.. I hate when things are done just to the bare minimum or code as it's commonly referred. So I am now left with the task of finishing off the top to not only look presentable but also function water tight which leads to one issue that popped up. It's been raining on and off for days here in the Northeast and the terracotta top plate I bought from Chimney Liner Depot is a piece of junk. Half the pathetic spot welds that hold the collar to the plate have already failed resulting in water leaking inside the chase. The liner is the Flex King Pro anb is of very high quality, double walled with a much smother interior compared to most single wall liners.

    Finally, I did not receive a spark screen with the cap that came with the Flex Pro kit. 3 calls to CLD each time being told they will ship one out to me and still have not recieve it..

    Hey Chimney Liner Depot!! If you happin to visit this forum, how bout sending me my spark screen!! Re: Order from 10/21/2008 #2001486

    Some more pics.. Thanks..

    Attached Files:

  10. bren582

    bren582 Member

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    More progress made today. The firebox heat shielding is complete and the flue liner is ready to drop into the stove collar. I should have a firm delivery date tomorrow. Man I can't wait..

    A few pics of the fireplace ready to accept the Clydesdale insert:

    Attached Files:

  11. pinewoodburner

    pinewoodburner Feeling the Heat

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    Va.
    I also ordered a liner kit from them and there is no screen in my cap either. Jeff
  12. bren582

    bren582 Member

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    Well, I was surprised to find a box on my front porch today from Chimney Liner Depot. They went above and beyond by sending me a complete new chimney cap. At first look it's obvious the replacement is far superior in quality to the one that came with the kit, the one missing the spark screen.

    I would give them another call and ask for them to do the same with yours..

    Take a look and compare the 2.. Thanks,,

    Attached Files:

  13. bren582

    bren582 Member

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    The insert was delivered yesterday and I spent a good part of today setting it up. The delivery guys took pitty on me and were nice enough to carry the beast inside and place in on my raised hearth. Otherwise I would have had to wait for friends to help lift it. Man this thing is heavy. Even with fan, front face frame and soapstones removed it still very heavy. 2 man job minimum. I few glitches encountered during installation but nothing major. biggest blunder was sealing the collar plate on the block off plate before setting the insert for a dry fit. Dispite all my measuing I was still a bit off and had a hard time flexing the liner forward to reach the collar. I have the insert out the maximum distance onto the hearth for better heat radiation. The dual position collar on the clydesdale saved the day as placement in the aft position made it possible to connect the liner without having to pull apart the dmaper plate. I was lucky here.. undoing that plate would have been a nightmare.

    Some more pictures..

    Attached Files:

  14. 04RevX

    04RevX Member

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    Can't wait to see more pictures of the finished product. Nice work!
  15. GVA

    GVA Minister of Fire

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    Waxhaw, NC... Formerly North shore Mass
    Wow that brings back memories of turner n burners install
    rhonemas and turner n burner could help you out on tips to running that beast, try PMing them.......
  16. bren582

    bren582 Member

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    yeah, I've read those posts over and over. Very helpful in bringing me up to speed along with so many posts on this forum. The whole process from start to almost finished has been both enjoyable and a bit unnerving in that I underestimated just how much work it would require to finish what I planned to do. Things did come together towards the end and so far so good, A bit lucky in some respects. I burned my break in fire yesterday and man did it stink out the house. It took 4 or 5 hours before the smell subsided for the most part. Venting the house was required. I'm now 3 fires in and 95% of the odor is now gone. I would estimate 10 to 12 hours of burn time ebfore the stink totally subsided.

    Take a look at this picture of the virgin firebox with stones installed, Hearthstone sent 5 polished stones mixed in with the whole lot. Not sure why they would do that, anyway The look is striking and its a shame that the Clydesdale soapstones are for refractory purpose only. After the break in fire the beauty was covered with combustion product. Oh well.. Makes me want to go out and buy a small soapstone stove for the living room just to take in the beauty of it.. Currently finances will not allow that dam!!

    Attached Files:

  17. bren582

    bren582 Member

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    Thanks 04.. here's a few pictures from the break in burn. 3 hours worth. I don't have a stove thermometer yet so I placed an oven therm on the stove with the probe placed on the stove collar. Temp read between 200 and 300 with a brief rise to 400 through the burn period. I tried to keep things under control and for the most part the face plate surface was hot but not so hot that I couldn't keep my hand on it.

    Attached Files:

  18. bren582

    bren582 Member

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    and 2 more toward the end of the breakin burn

    Attached Files:

  19. bren582

    bren582 Member

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    This idea concerning expansion on the heat shields seems to have worked out OK. Several days of burning at higher temps each day and no sound
    at all coming from the heat shields.
    The damper plate is secured by Tapcon screw to the masonry but the back, side and bottom plates are not secured in any way other tham the
    high heat mortar used to seal up the seams. Final clearence from stove to shields, 10 inches in the back, 7 inches on the sides, 13 inches on top. I wonder how
    much going with 22gauge sheet may have helpded in this regard?? The 22G is much heavier compared to the more comman 26/26G stuff..

    re:
    Thats a good point regarding expansion due to heat stress. For a 500 degree rise in temp on a 25 to 30 inch sheet we are looking at 2mm expansion.
    Any idea how hot the shield will get under normal use? there is a 5 or 6” clearence in the back and sides. I’m thinking that a floating installation might
    reduce any expansion related noise. Perhaps allow for some space for expansion by not bolting the bottom and side plates down, just mortar them in place
    to allow for a bit of expansion.. What do you think ?

    Delta L = (alpha)(delta T)(L)
    Where:
    delta L= total change in length, inches (total deformation)
    alpha = coefficient of thermal expansion (Steel Sheet alpha 0.000 0065")
    delta T = temperature change
    L = length in inches
  20. bren582

    bren582 Member

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    Loc:
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    Speaking of noise. I fired the clydesdale pretty hot tonight. I notice some clink and clank type nioses coming from the bowels of the insert itself, especially when the top of the insert at the collar reached between 500 and 600 degrees F. Lots of nioses that subsided as the collar temp dropped to 400 or so.

    Am I at risk of overfiring this thing?

    The hearthstone catalog does not mention a temperature range in any way, Only warns against overfiring.

    Anyone know for sure what the operating range is for this insert?

    Thanks..
  21. InTheRockies

    InTheRockies New Member

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    Very nice job on your DIY install. You do good work. That stove's a beauty. I agree--those interior soapstones are a thing of beauty. Enjoy your new stove; it looks like it will have no problems keeping you warm this winter.
  22. bokehman

    bokehman Feeling the Heat

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    My insert is an Hergóm (which I think is a sister of Hearthstone). It makes a few noises too. The top sheet metal goes convex and makes a big ching when it heats up. As for temps, ten minutes after a reload and with the air closed temp on the single wall SS liner one foot up is often over 600F. The collar is about the same. I don't know my stove temps would be much use to you for comparison because mines iron without a stone liner but I'll post them if you like.

    About the sheet metal, my fireplace is brick lined and it is often at 150ºF. I'd guess your sheet metal will be hotter but only time will tell.
  23. bren582

    bren582 Member

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    Thanks bokehamn.
    I have a call into the dealer to try and confirm the operating range of temp for the clydesdale.
    So far without the surround installed the back and side heat shields get hot but not so hot that placing a hand on them would burn you.
    The top plate does get pretty hot though, to hot to touch for more than a second or 2. I have about 7" clearence on the sides, 12 or 13" on
    the back plate and 12 or so from top of insert to blockoff plate so there's a good deal of air space around the insert.
    All the heat shields have ceramic blanket 1" or more between the metal and brick. Block off plate has more like 3 inches of insulation.

    I tracked temps last night and this is what I recorded (deg F, 35-40deg outside temp).
    FamRm temp at startup 60deg
    1 hour later FamRm up to 73deg, dampered down to 50%
    2 hours later FamRm up to 78deg, dampered down to 75% (Living Room and Kitchen went from 61 to 68 in this time)

    So far I am very happy with the heat output. I have no frame of reference to compare but I think my totally overkill effort is paying off.
    I certainly hope so. Overall this was an enjoyable project but I must say working with the ceramic balcket was a nightmare, Even with
    resporator and gloves that ceramic blanket insulation is pure evil!! The devil, 666 number of the beast, beelzbub!!!
    I will never attempt to work with the stuff again.

    Re: Crude diag of my floor plan, pretty open:

    Attached Files:

  24. bren582

    bren582 Member

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    Another burn pic.. Love that secondary burn!!

    Attached Files:

  25. bokehman

    bokehman Feeling the Heat

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    You've gone to a lot of trouble to save energy with your heat sheilds, etc. but I think you are probably wasting a lot with your damper settings. My stove doesn't really start to heat up until the damper is closed. As soon as I close it fully it starts tinging (ting! ting! ting!) and the temperature rises a fair bit over the next few minutes. I'm normally down to 0% damper in about 30 minutes, and even less with my best wood.
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