HELLO FELLOW WOOD BURNERS, IM A NEWBIE HERE AND I HAVE A FEW QUESTIONS ON GASIFERS WOOD BOILERS. I HAVE 3200 SQ FT OF LIVING SPACE AND A 1600 SQ FT ATTATCHED GARAGE I WILL BE HEATING ALL RADIANT FLOOR HEAT, MOST WITHOUT OXY BARRIER PIPE, I LIVE IN CENTRAL IL. TEMPS AS LOW AS 10-15 BELOW (MOST EXTREME) AVERAGE 0- 35F. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT SIZE OF BOILER SHOULD I GO WITH, CAN YOU GO TO BIG OR SHOULD I TRY SMALLER WITH STORAGE. THE PLACE IS SEMI WELL INSULATED, THE OTHER QUESTION IS PUMP SIZEING IN THE PAST IVE BEEN USEING A NATURAL GAS LARRS MIGHTYTHERM 220 BTU. AND THE BOILER WOULD RUN ON FOR A COUPLE HOURS TO GET THE AREA UP TO TEMP, IM SURE THIS WAS MY FUALTY PLUMBING, ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRECIATED.
eko40-60 or attackdp
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Welcome Edy. I'm going to move this post over to the boiler room for a more targeted response. Several Eko owners here.
PS: No need for ALL CAPS here. We hear you fine.
PS: No need for ALL CAPS here. We hear you fine.
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
Welcome, and as stated, please use normal case, not all caps...
The non-oxy barrier pipe is a problem - as a result you probably will want to have a heat exchanger of some sort between your heating system and the boiler, which will hurt your efficiency a bit, but you really don't want to be running oxygenated water through a gasser, as it will rapidly destroy it from the inside.... One possible other exception might be to use one of the Stainless Steel "Wood Gun" units, not sure, but they might have fewer corrosion problems w/ oxygenated water... Also make sure that you are using stainless or bronze circs, valves, etc. on the non-oxy barrier side as well.
Also the first step in deciding on any setup is to do a thorough and complete heat load evaluation.
That said, you want a storage setup w/ any gasifier, for several reasons, especially that most of your heating will be done at less than "design day" loads and the storage helps reduce your firing load at those times. IMHO you are better off using a boiler that is slightly bigger than your design-day heat load - go for the next step up in size.
Given your non-oxy barrier plumbing, I would think your best option might be to use pressurized storage, with a heat exchanger to go from the storage to the rest of the heating system plumbing... That way you keep the oxygen out of the boiler and storage tank, and limit it to the areas where it won't do as much harm.
I'm sure others will also be able to suggest equally good or better alternatives.
Gooserider
The non-oxy barrier pipe is a problem - as a result you probably will want to have a heat exchanger of some sort between your heating system and the boiler, which will hurt your efficiency a bit, but you really don't want to be running oxygenated water through a gasser, as it will rapidly destroy it from the inside.... One possible other exception might be to use one of the Stainless Steel "Wood Gun" units, not sure, but they might have fewer corrosion problems w/ oxygenated water... Also make sure that you are using stainless or bronze circs, valves, etc. on the non-oxy barrier side as well.
Also the first step in deciding on any setup is to do a thorough and complete heat load evaluation.
That said, you want a storage setup w/ any gasifier, for several reasons, especially that most of your heating will be done at less than "design day" loads and the storage helps reduce your firing load at those times. IMHO you are better off using a boiler that is slightly bigger than your design-day heat load - go for the next step up in size.
Given your non-oxy barrier plumbing, I would think your best option might be to use pressurized storage, with a heat exchanger to go from the storage to the rest of the heating system plumbing... That way you keep the oxygen out of the boiler and storage tank, and limit it to the areas where it won't do as much harm.
I'm sure others will also be able to suggest equally good or better alternatives.
Gooserider
tom in maine
Minister of Fire
Just to add more to this topic: you can use corrosion inhibitor to protect a heating system from oxygen migration.
Another way around this is to use an unpressurized system and run tank water right into the radiant floor system, as an unpressurized loop, using a bronze or stainless
pump to circulate the tank water. This way there is nothing that can corrode. The boiler inputs heat into the tank via a copper heat exchanger.
This way the tank is functioning as a heat exchanger.
Probably the least expensive way out is corrosion inhibitor, though.
Another way around this is to use an unpressurized system and run tank water right into the radiant floor system, as an unpressurized loop, using a bronze or stainless
pump to circulate the tank water. This way there is nothing that can corrode. The boiler inputs heat into the tank via a copper heat exchanger.
This way the tank is functioning as a heat exchanger.
Probably the least expensive way out is corrosion inhibitor, though.
Thanks Gooserider and tom on the reply, are the gasification units as hard to operate as some of the posts ive been reading, another question about heat exchangers, what tempratures can you expect to get out of a plate heat exchanger if your water on the loop side is 65 and your boiler side would be 165-180. thanks again in advance.
tom in maine
Minister of Fire
I'll let someone who has lived with an Eko comment on how difficult they are to operate. My sense is that most gasifiers are pretty easy to live with.
The performance of the plate heat exchanger is a function of several variables, the temp. difference of both sides, the flow rate and most important the number of plates(the surface area).
The bigger the surface area is, the more heat exchange.
I would assume from the numbers you asked about, you are wondering about domestic hot water? Sizing of a plate heat exchanger is something that a vendor can assist on. Most plumbing houses can assist here, in case you cannot get a vendor to offer this information.
The performance of the plate heat exchanger is a function of several variables, the temp. difference of both sides, the flow rate and most important the number of plates(the surface area).
The bigger the surface area is, the more heat exchange.
I would assume from the numbers you asked about, you are wondering about domestic hot water? Sizing of a plate heat exchanger is something that a vendor can assist on. Most plumbing houses can assist here, in case you cannot get a vendor to offer this information.
sdrobertson
Minister of Fire
EDYS68 said:
My biggest fear of this forum is that individuals reading the posts trying to find information on gasification units will come to the conculsion that they are hard and take allot of time to "tinker" with. This is not the case as most of thoses type of posts are dealing with individuals that are trying to get the absolutely best efficiency and highest millage out of the boiler. Most are DIYer's that like to tinker. I think this has led to some miss-information on the downdraft gasifiers. They are no more difficult to operate than a standard wood appliance. Just a little different but no where the complicated mess that some of the posts at first lead you to believe. Its the difference between a vehicle getting 15 mpg and then trying to "fine-tune" it by playing with the electronics, tire size, muffler bearings, etc.... to get 16 mpg. Some of us take these up as a new hobby and try to spend as much time in the boiler room as we can.
I also think some of the impressions visitors get here that gassifiers are tricky to run comes from some of the older posts from people trying to run their new downdraft gassifiers the same way they ran their OWBs with massive chunks of wood that were not dry enough.
sdrobertson
Minister of Fire
DaveBP said:
I'm really, really guilty of this...I had no idea what dry wood really was and I'm still in the opinion that a moisture meter should be included and mandatory with the purchase of any boiler. This would solve allot of problems. I'm still amazed at the difference between OWB's and the downdraft gassifers.
For sure.... Gassers aren't all that tough.... Some of us enjoy a challenge and LIKE to complicate things....
I would say that your best bet for long-term is to stay away from tricky boiler chemicals that need maintenance, etc and go with a stainless flat plate..... As far as your low water temps from the floor...... The bigger the difference in temperature of the two water sources, the more heat you can move with a flat plate...... With 65F water on one side and 165F water on the other, even the smallest pumps will move more heat than even an EKO 60 can supply.... But, as the floor heats up, then your demand starts to drop.... Most floors run about 115-130F water in them......
My 70 plate would move about 165,000 BTU/hr with a 20 degree difference using two small 007 sized pumps.... And that was without counterflow which kills transfer efficiency......
I might add that I do have my 70 plate stainless exchanger for sale in the classifieds here... (Shameless plugging..... I know......)
I would say that your best bet for long-term is to stay away from tricky boiler chemicals that need maintenance, etc and go with a stainless flat plate..... As far as your low water temps from the floor...... The bigger the difference in temperature of the two water sources, the more heat you can move with a flat plate...... With 65F water on one side and 165F water on the other, even the smallest pumps will move more heat than even an EKO 60 can supply.... But, as the floor heats up, then your demand starts to drop.... Most floors run about 115-130F water in them......
My 70 plate would move about 165,000 BTU/hr with a 20 degree difference using two small 007 sized pumps.... And that was without counterflow which kills transfer efficiency......
I might add that I do have my 70 plate stainless exchanger for sale in the classifieds here...
(Shameless plugging..... I know......)- Status
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