1. Welcome Hearth.com Guests and Visitors - Please enjoy our forums!
    Hearth.com GOLD Sponsors who help bring the site content to you:
    Hearthstone Soapstone and Cast-Iron stoves( Wood, Gas or Pellet Stoves and Inserts)
    Caluwe - Passion for Fire and Water ( Pellet and Wood Hydronic and Space Heating)

Englander Auger Motor Failure and Replacement

Post in 'The Pellet Mill - Pellet and Multifuel Stoves' started by NEStoveOwner, Jan 24, 2009.

  1. NEStoveOwner

    NEStoveOwner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Messages:
    59
    Loc:
    Mass
    Many of you have read about my troubled past in several other threads. To those who were sympathetic or offered suggestions, thank you.

    I posted that I had a Plan B : http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/31098/



    My stove came with a Merkle Korff (MK) Auger Motor. It can be bought from MK directly for about $73.00.

    http://merklekorff.thomasnet.com/vi...nal-gearmotors-thermally-protected?&forward=1

    Because i have gone through a LOT of motors i thought there was an issue with the motor design:

    http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/32191/
    http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/28051/



    I made several calls to my stove manufacturer and their answer was buy another motor for ~$130.00. There has been subsequent communication with them
    to do some further investigation on my stove. But there has yet to be a conversation where i am next to my stove telling them over the phone anything they need
    to know. I needed to do something so i can get my stove running normal again.

    My theory still remains that the windings on the MK motors fail. Mine seem to fail more than most, possibly because i have an insert ?????? I am not sure.

    Its going to take a lot to convince me to ever put another Merkle Korff auger motor in my stove so i looked for alternatives.

    FYR, the Auger Motor is also called an AC Gearmotor, the electric portion of the gearbox is a C Frame Shaded Pole motor.

    I found some on Granger for $82. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/1LNG2

    I think it would have been up to the task, there was one other model with slightly more torque that might have been better.



    Next i stumbled upon Gleason Avery (GA)

    http://www.gleasonavery.com/catalog/pellet-corn-stove-motors.html

    They offer a line of pellet stove motors for $79.95. I took a chance and bought one. The photo below is a side by side of the two motors.

    The physical design differences:

    GA Armature = 1 1/8", MK Armature = 13/16"
    GA terminals are soldered, MK terminals are crimped (the pic shows soldered because i did).
    GA has a gasket sealing gearbox halves, MK doesnt
    GA uses rivets to secure the two sections of motor frame, MK slides them like a jigsaw
    GA uses a sealed bearing, MK uses sintered bronze
    GA operating current (no load) = .35A, MK operating current (no load) = .49A - my actual measurements
    GA operating temp (no load) = 101F, MK operating temp (no load) = 180F - my actual measurements


    You can order any motor from GA in CW or CCW. You can also reverse direction yourself by removing the bobbin (windings) and flipping it over.

    I installed this motor tonight and just turned the stove on to verify all is okay. This motor is so unbelievably quiet it isnt even funny. No more motor hum, grrr noise, or noise resonating through the stove. I will fire it up tomorrow and report back.

    I have offered some of the above info to Englander and encouraged them to look at this as an alternative motor. It does need to be tested but it should be looked at. The street price is almost the same, the quality is much better. If you buy in qty from either supplier the price will come down.

    A lot of people bashed me because Mike is a good guy and they think because they have an Englander that works fine, i must be the idiot. Well my stove doesnt work fine. I like Mike too but when i started on this investigation Englander (not Mike) wanted me to spend $130 on a $73 motor that i have no confidence in. Mike has offered to investigate but that hasnt happened yet. I am still going to try and coordinate with Mike. Id like to see if he can figure if failed motors are the symptom and not the cause.

    I did come here looking for answers - some offered answers and thank you. Those that replied to me without offering suggestions or help, i am not sure why you come here. I hope this experiment works so that i can share the answer and i am hoping to save anyone who has a MERKLE KORFF motor some money and aggravation.

    Thanks

    [​IMG]
    smoke show likes this.

    Helpful Sponsor Ads!





  2. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Messages:
    13,490
    Loc:
    Northwestern CT.
    NEStoveOwner,

    Nice write up, I will bet this helps a few people down the road.

    OK, My 2 cents sintered bronze bushings suck. They require lub every so often. I had an old quadra fire that used to make funny noises when it got hot(Merkle auger motor). I too bought a new motor only to have it do it again shortly after. Motor was hot to touch. I would completly disassemble the auger motor and regrease it. I could get maybe 2 months or so out of it. But now having 2 of them made it not bad to deal with.

    I will bet if you freshened up the grease at the output shafts your run temp would drop on the Merkle. I found it best to do a complete disassemble and relude. Lasted longer.

    But the gleason with ball bearings has to be better. There is less resistance in a ball bearing than a sleeved bushing. I would never call a sleeved bushing a bearing. I would also never us a sleeved bushing in a severe duty application, Unless it was lubed by an oilbath.

    You will also find that the convection blower motors will require lubing every so often. Because of the sleeved bushings. I have been working on an upgrade to my bigE's blower motor. The fasco B24220 blower would get loud after a month or so(finally got my dealer to replace it). When my stove is out of warrenty I will replace the POS with a grainger dayton 1TDR6 blower motor that has ball bearings. Then I would only have to lude maybe once a heating season.

    Now that you have provided this info I can order on of these motors too!

    Thanks, Hope I didn't ramble on to much for ya
    jay
  3. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    12,337
    Loc:
    Western Mass.
    Thanks for sharing.
    Yes, as you mention, snide comments and even nice customer service people do not in any way affect physics or mechanics. It will be great if your solution works and I'm sure the Englander and other makers may note the difference.

    One problem, however, is that many companies have bean counters who look at every cent - and even though the street prices are similar, the dead OEM wholesale could be different by as much as $5 or more. Take that times 20 or 30,000 stoves per year and you have a "free" $150,000. Then add the replacement motor business - but subtract the few (relatively) that you have to send out under warranty.

    I think a longer warranty from pellet stove makers would go a long way toward assuring BOTH better quality (the bean counters look at warranty costs!) and more customer satisfaction. The fact is - proven over and over again - that MOST unsatisfied customers do not make a fuss. Some just buy the parts, others let the stove sit there without use, etc. etc.

    I know this for a fact....having sold many thousands of stoves....made them, imported them, etc. - We had almost NO complaints....maybe a few per year and I KNOW there were a lot more people than that whose stoves were not right. In fact, sometimes we would finally get a complaint after a few years...and I'd ask the customer why they didn't tell us sooner! The answer was usually that they thought it was their fault, etc.

    I forget exactly where I heard it, but remember something like "for every customer that complains directly, there are 19 (approx) who do not".
  4. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    2,019
    Loc:
    Oakhurst, California, USA, Earth
    one of the reasons the gear reduction motors fail is they are designed to be used Horizontal. The gear box flat.

    They are mounted at a 25 to 60 deg angle in pellet stoves to it puts more stress on the Armature and the gearbox because the grease will slip down to the bottom of the gear box.
  5. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    2,019
    Loc:
    Oakhurst, California, USA, Earth
    I find this link to MK interesting.
    I pay more that they list for the motors from the Manufacures of the stoves.
    I talked to MK a few years ago to buy direct because I sell over 300 a year.
    they said I had to buy 500 at a time to buy direct and would not realy work with me.

    Time to call them agian.
  6. NEStoveOwner

    NEStoveOwner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Messages:
    59
    Loc:
    Mass
    jtakeman, One of the tests i did was to remove the gears in the gear box so that the motor was operating without the load of the gear train on it. The current draw and the operating temp was the same. I was trying to see if there was a lot of drag on the motor from the gearbox.

    Hearthtools, the part number on my MK is a custom design for Englander. The specifications on their website (voltage, torque and etc) should be a match for this application. Even something as simple as CW vs CCW might make for a custom part number.

    Webmaster .... I'm in West Mass too. Small world.

    Stove is on its fourth hour of operation and no issues.
  7. OU812

    OU812 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    184
    Loc:
    California
    Thanks for the information! Some of these dealers jack up parts like you wouldn't believe (over 100% markup) and I am always on the lookout for good parts sources. I called the Enviro dealer once and he wanted more than double the internet price for an auger motor. I have also found that a lot of the internet dealers offer fantastic service and issue refunds without a hassle. I remember calling the dealer for an auger timer not long ago. He said he would need to look the price up and call me back. I waited 3 days for his call which never came. I went online after that and found an auger timer for $40.00 (OEM and more than 1/2 off) and they shipped it to my door in 3 days!
  8. GVA

    GVA Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,140
    Loc:
    Waxhaw, NC... Formerly North shore Mass
    On the GA gearmotors I had alot of experience.......

    They were almost identical to the MK motor up till recently....
    Yes they had oil impregnated bronze, no ball or needle bearings.
    the 18 gauge mtw was soldered to the windings
    there was a thin gasket similar to the MK.
    they had many many failures in the past, but thousands and thousands of Harman stoves have them (the old style) and are still running, as I'm sure is the case of the Englanders...
    so from a troubleshooting side one can see 5,000 stoves running strong to 10 that are not to be a stove related problem if the same component repeatedly fails...
    That is what is normally the case.....
    It's tough to tell ones skills when there are people that like to jump in and quote things that they don't really understand, and leads the topic astray....
    And no I'm not refering to you on this but the people that jumped into the other threads...
    Like Bass???? in this thread.. http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/31337/
    I still think there is a root cause to you're failures, but hopefully all will be well with the cooler running motor........

    FWIW here are the pics of the old version....of the Gleason Avery
    notes:
    the armature shaft sticks out for mounting of a fan blade to help keep it cool.
    the output shaft bushing was changed to a needle bearing correct? (no pic of the front)
    Make sure you get the correct RPM for the Englander I think it is 1RPM......Harman is 4RPM
    Good luck

    Attached Files:

  9. NEStoveOwner

    NEStoveOwner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Messages:
    59
    Loc:
    Mass
    I received a PM for additional part number info on the GA. Here is a close up of the motor label.

    You can see from the date on the label it was built to my order. The current draw rating is .72 but it only draws the amount stated above.

    [​IMG]

    This motor is spec'd as a 1 RPM motor. It actually spins at 1.5RPM. The MK i removed was 1.25 RPM. The GA is 20% faster but for me it
    isnt an issue. If RPM is critical in your stove i recommend you measure it and than when you call GA tell them what you need for output - not rated.

    Maybe someone can chime in, is the RPM rating generally lower than actual?
  10. NEStoveOwner

    NEStoveOwner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Messages:
    59
    Loc:
    Mass
    GVA, iirc yes the output shaft has a needle gearing. Unfortunately i didnt take a pic.

    I noticed that a lot of the Daytons also extend the shaft for fan blade mounting.

    When i called GA, they were well aware of MK and their motors. There was more said but not appropriate for me to repeat.

    I'm formerly of the North Shore too (Ipswich) now living in West Mass.
  11. GVA

    GVA Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,140
    Loc:
    Waxhaw, NC... Formerly North shore Mass
    RPM would vary on the voltage to the stove verse nameplate voltage... as does current....
    Ex: amotor rated at 1.6 amps at 460vac would draw probably 1.4 amps at 480 vac..
  12. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    2,019
    Loc:
    Oakhurst, California, USA, Earth
    I dont see how a cooling fan would help on most pellet stove because the feed times are only 2 seconds on and around 7 seconds on at a time for some others.
  13. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    2,019
    Loc:
    Oakhurst, California, USA, Earth
    who did you get the timer from?
  14. OU812

    OU812 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    184
    Loc:
    California
  15. OU812

    OU812 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    184
    Loc:
    California
  16. GVA

    GVA Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,140
    Loc:
    Waxhaw, NC... Formerly North shore Mass
    On the 4rpm harman the input shaft is spinning over 3200rpm. regardless of the cycle times the fan is gonna spin and draw air across the coil while it is running...
    or in the case of the lower auger on the englander it is always running..
  17. Dougsey

    Dougsey Feeling the Heat

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2006
    Messages:
    332
    Loc:
    Epping, NH
    The auger on my Accentra runs for a minimum of 7 seconds and will run for 20 - 30 seconds a lot of the time
    so I think the fan does help (on Harmans at least).
  18. NEStoveOwner

    NEStoveOwner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Messages:
    59
    Loc:
    Mass
    Just checking in.

    GA Auger motor running fine and stove is not having any issues.

    No work done with Englander to investigate my motor failures. Have not heard back if they are going to test GA units themselves.
  19. NEStoveOwner

    NEStoveOwner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Messages:
    59
    Loc:
    Mass
    Just checking in again.

    GA Auger motor running fine and stove is not having any issues.

    No work done with Englander to investigate my motor failures. Have not heard back if they are going to test GA units themselves.
  20. donbryce

    donbryce Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2009
    Messages:
    110
    Loc:
    NB Canada
    I've been following your threads, and if I may, please comment on the following summary, which I believe captures the 4 available auger motors mentioned in your posts which will work without modification on the Englander 25-PDVC and PDV:

    MFG........................Part#..........................On-line sales....................Price.......URL
    Merkle Korff............U-047040................Englander........................$130.98 .... http://tinyurl.com/dmom2p
    Merkle Korff............8211.......................Merkle Korff......................$73.18 .... http://tinyurl.com/averwq
    Dayton...................1LNG2A...................Grainger...........................$89.00 .... http://tinyurl.com/cftraf
    Gleason Avery........A901.......................Gleason Avery...................$79.95 .... http://tinyurl.com/cbc9ze

    I assume that you're happy with the A901 and would recommend it over the others. I couldn't find the part number on the MK (model 4515UI-050) in my 25-PDVC on their website, so assume that it's assigned to the 'custom' motor supplied to Englander.

    Here are a few Q's:

    (1) Is the MK U-047040 identical to the MK 8211, or does the rotation need to be changed, or the output shaft modified to fit the auger?

    (2) I re-read your posts and cannot find where I swear you noted that one of these motors was available at a reduced price for the motor portion only, that is, without gearbox...was that the Dayton?

    (3) Are any of/all of these motors easily fitted to the gearbox on the MK motor in the Englander?

    Bottom line here is that it would seem from everything I've read that the gearboxes on the Englander MK motors are bulletproof, but the motor portion is not, so the best cost effective solution to a failed auger motor would be attaching a GA A901 motor to the MK gearbox supplied with the stove, no?

    And the cheapest would be fitting whatever of these is available without the gearbox to the MK/Englander gearbox?

    EDIT Feb.25/2009: I emailed Grainger, and the Dayton 1LNG2 motor is not available as a separate part. Also got a reply from Merkle Korff re. availability of motor only for their 8211, and it is also not sold separate.
  21. mikiet

    mikiet New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1
    Loc:
    central ny
    i just purchased my 1st auger replacement motor, thanks for info nestoveowner, what a headache researching this, i have a englander, and the cheapest i found was a 100. bucks at a local eletric motor repair shop,
    i had mine for 4 yrs running no problem, and yet still the motor was not totally cooked, i believe from the high heat transfer, the winding wire to clip became brittle and contact was broken and the small shaft end that spins 3k rpm was dried and seized, 10 min later some fine emery, oil/grease ,soldering and the motor was working, but , i still purchased another from gleason avery, they are close to my area,look more beefier, and are reasonabley priced
    like other posts, these motors should be maintenanced regularly, but i still feel theres a overly priced market for these!
    u guys should mix the corn, keeps augers clean, no build up
  22. packerfan

    packerfan Feeling the Heat

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2007
    Messages:
    375
    Loc:
    frozen tundra
    Just wondering if this is still doing fine for ya in case I need a replacement sometime this year.
  23. krooser

    krooser Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2008
    Messages:
    2,420
    Loc:
    Waupaca, WI
    Great info... there's more than one way to fix a problem stove.
  24. NEStoveOwner

    NEStoveOwner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Messages:
    59
    Loc:
    Mass
    Just checking back in. Gleason Avery is still running fine.
  25. packerfan

    packerfan Feeling the Heat

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2007
    Messages:
    375
    Loc:
    frozen tundra

Share This Page