Found a tank! Thoughts and calculations would be appreciated.

[Gasifier]

Well I found a tank. Could you tell me how many gallons you think this will hold and what you think of it for thermal storage?

Here is the description.
Air Tank w/ Oil Filled Pressure Gauge

From 0-200
150 PSI Pressure Release Valve
108" Height of Tank
14" Base Height
Approx. 36" Diameter

The tank has a plate on it, (Appears someone painted it the same color of the tank.) that says it was manufactured in 1989 and certified by (can't make this out) Steel Fab in ......don, Virginia.? I can not make out who. It has a maximum prssure on the tank of 165 P.S.I. @ 450 F It has the numbers 187 and then SH 225 at the bottom. ? There is much I can not make out from the picture.
Once I get the tank home I can clean the plate off and get the rest of it. I am thinking it must hold at least 350 gallons from those sizes. Has several plumbing ports high and low on the sides and one on the direct bottom. He said they look like 1-1/4". Think it will work?

 

[afblue]

guessing how much of the base collar is hiding the lower curved end, and the tank has perfect radius ends like a propane tank I calculate 52 cubic feet, which is 388 gals so its ~375gal if it has slightly flatter ends it may be rated as a "400" gal tank. Taking about a 80F delta T either 100-180 or 120-200 375*8.3BTU/lb/F*80F=~249,000BTU If the Price is good, I think its a great deal. Some may suggest larger inlet/outlets, but if they are in the right locations especially the one on the top, I would leave well enough alone.

 

[jebatty]

Looks like a great find, hope the price was really good also. Be sure to check the tank for interior corrosion and clean the tank well. Air tanks typically have condensation inside, which may cause rust in varying degrees. Being more than 20 years old, you want to be sure you won't have problems. On the other hand, the low pressure with water probably poses less of a risk of leaking than high air pressure. Make sure your water is tested and has high pH. Because of possible loose rust in the tank, even after cleaning, you might want to consider a high temperature water filter, at least for a couple of months, to trap any flaking rust or other sediment that may enter your hot water lines.

 

[Gasifier]

Guessing how much of the base collar is hiding the lower curved end, and the tank has perfect radius ends like a propane tank I calculate 52 cubic feet, which is 388 gals so its ~375gal if it has slightly flatter ends it may be rated as a “400†gal tank. Taking about a 80F delta T either 100-180 or 120-200 375*8.3BTU/lb/F*80F=~249,000BTU If the Price is good, I think its a great deal. Some may suggest larger inlet/outlets, but if they are in the right locations especially the one on the top, I would leave well enough alone.

Thanks. That is just what the guy selling it thought. I told him it was close to the dimensions of a 250 gallon propane tank. A little longer though. He said no, I think it is more like 350-400 gallons. That is great, should work good with an E100 Wood Gun. I picked it up cheaper than I could get a used 250 gallon propane tank from smokeless heat. I thought that was a good deal. Key was finding something under 37" in order to get it through window frame in basement. Buy the time I pay to have it moved to my house I will have $850 in it. For that amount of storage I think it was a good deal. I just need to insulate after my guys plumb the system up. It will be a while before I am ready for them.

Looks like a great find, hope the price was really good also. Be sure to check the tank for interior corrosion and clean the tank well. Air tanks typically have condensation inside, which may cause rust in varying degrees. Being more than 20 years old, you want to be sure you won’t have problems. On the other hand, the low pressure with water probably poses less of a risk of leaking than high air pressure. Make sure your water is tested and has high pH. Because of possible loose rust in the tank, even after cleaning, you might want to consider a high temperature water filter, at least for a couple of months, to trap any flaking rust or other sediment that may enter your hot water lines.


Thanks. What do you think the best way to clean the inside of the tank would be? Should I try to get a pressure washer nozzle in the larger openings and spray all around it? Is there a solution of some kind that I should use with water? I have never done this before. I will have my water guy do the testing of the water before we fill everything. Any idea what a high temp. filter cost? Thanks for your time gentlemen. I appreciate all the input.

 

[jebatty]

What do you think the best way to clean the inside of the tank would be? Should I try to get a pressure washer nozzle in the larger openings and spray all around it? Is there a solution of some kind that I should use with water? I have never done this before. I will have my water guy do the testing of the water before we fill everything. Any idea what a high temp. filter cost?

Cleaning can be tough, depending on your access. I would consult with a boiler water chemical supply outfit for recommendation on a cleaning solution for your tank. *oogle "hot water filter" and you will find what you are looking for.

 

[Gasifier]

Would I need one of these with the vessel of my Wood Gun being stainless steel? Or would it be an issue of potentially clogging something up?

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

Nice find. This is an ASME tank with the welded plate you have on it. This is a newer tank as used air comp. tanks go. Chances are this has very little corrosion in it as air compressors use some oil & this coats the tank with an oil water mix. Keep it upright if at all possible, Randy

 

[Gasifier]

Nice find. This is an ASME tank with the welded plate you have on it. This is a newer tank as used air comp. tanks go. Chances are this has very little corrosion in it as air compressors use some oil & this coats the tank with an oil water mix. Keep it upright if at all possible, Randy

Thanks. What does keeping it upright do for it? I would imagine with a tank this tall it will be laid down on a pallet for the shipping. I was thinking of installing it laying on its side. Should I not do that? Would it be better to do it upright? It already has a stand on it's base to stand it upright, and would take up less floor space that way. The reason I was going to put it on its side is if I install upright I will have to make some modifications to allow for more height clearance. Then I was thinking of all that weight in that tiny little area. Laying it on its side, I could spread the weight out on to two or three supports I could make for it. But, I can make the modifications to stand it upright myself if I need to. I am just now finishing up a complet bath/laundry room makeover and bedroom next to that. Another week and it will be done. Thank god. Wife saved the money for new Jet tub, toilet, sink and Amish made double vanity. So I could not tell her I didn't want to do it. (Always good to keep them happy.) I have done a little of everything over the years when it comes to remodeling, except sweating copper and boiler work. Do not know enough about it. I like hiring that done. Stinks to have pay for it. What do you guys think of all that weight of water on that round type of stand built on one end? You would have about 4000 lbs between 375 gallons of water and the weight of the tank in a circle a little under 36 inches. Would the welds on the stand hold no problem? Would a 4" concrete floor crack? I know the tank was originally designed to hold air. It is going to be much heavier now. Thanks for your time and experience.

 

[ewdudley]

What do you guys think of all that weight of water on that round type of stand built on one end? You would have about 4000 lbs between 375 gallons of water and the weight of the tank in a circle a little under 36 inches. Would the welds on the stand hold no problem? Would a 4" concrete floor crack? I know the tank was originally designed to hold air. It is going to be much heavier now. Thanks for your time and experience.

Four inches of concrete on good compacted fill? No problem at all. You wouldn't be scared to jack up the back end of a 100 HP tractor with a bottle jack on four inches of concrete, which would be two or three times the weight in a much smaller area.

I don't know what the shear strength of the welds would be, call it 25 tons per square inch. Is there a tenth of a square inch of weld on there in the right places?

 

[Gasifier]

Okay, good point. Thanks. So you don't like the idea of laying it down either? I have a place under a main floor that we use for storage space, it is just off of the basement. It is about 48 inches high and has a newer 5 inch pad under it. Insulated walls and all. (Long story) It would save me some space in the boiler room, but would make for a slightly longer run of piping to go from the wood boiler to the storage and then back again. Probably twelve feet each way from wood boiler. If I put it in the boiler room vertically, there is enough room, I would have to make some more height room, but it would then be directly between the wood boiler and the existing system of oil boiler and manifold for all zones. Thanks again for the common sense lesson.

 

[ewdudley]

Okay, good point. Thanks. So you don't like the idea of laying it down either? I have a place under a main floor that we use for storage space, it is just off of the basement. It is about 48 inches high and has a newer 5 inch pad under it. Insulated walls and all. (Long story) It would save me some space in the boiler room, but would make for a slightly longer run of piping to go from the wood boiler to the storage and then back again. Probably twelve feet each way from wood boiler. If I put it in the boiler room vertically, there is enough room, I would have to make some more height room, but it would then be directly between the wood boiler and the existing system of oil boiler and manifold for all zones. Thanks again for the common sense lesson.

It's hard to go wrong. Vertical has its advantages, but water stratifies well and there's plenty of guys out there who are as pleased as can be with a single horizontal tank.

Since you can take advantage of some adjacent, dry, and marginally useful space it sounds great. If you go horizontal ideally you would want to find a way to get the water jets to be horizontal inside the tank. Any kind of diffuser would be an advantage to keep the hot water from jetting down and mixing with the lower layer, or the return water from jetting up into the hot layer.

Having horizontal ports welded into the top and bottom of the end of the tank would be ideal for you since you're going to be tight on head space and it would be nice not to have to deal with plumbing above and below the tank lying on its side.

I don't know if it makes sense at all in your situation, but a horizontal tank up on a rack or suspended from the floor joists next to a wall at an elevation higher than the boiler would give you nice way to solve the dump zone problem.

--ewd

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

Nice find. This is an ASME tank with the welded plate you have on it. This is a newer tank as used air comp. tanks go. Chances are this has very little corrosion in it as air compressors use some oil & this coats the tank with an oil water mix. Keep it upright if at all possible, Randy

Thanks. What does keeping it upright do for it? I would imagine with a tank this tall it will be laid down on a pallet for the shipping. I was thinking of installing it laying on its side. Should I not do that? Would it be better to do it upright? It already has a stand on it's base to stand it upright, and would take up less floor space that way. The reason I was going to put it on its side is if I install upright I will have to make some modifications to allow for more height clearance. Then I was thinking of all that weight in that tiny little area. Laying it on its side, I could spread the weight out on to two or three supports I could make for it. But, I can make the modifications to stand it upright myself if I need to. I am just now finishing up a complet bath/laundry room makeover and bedroom next to that. Another week and it will be done. Thank god. Wife saved the money for new Jet tub, toilet, sink and Amish made double vanity. So I could not tell her I didn't want to do it. (Always good to keep them happy.) I have done a little of everything over the years when it comes to remodeling, except sweating copper and boiler work. Do not know enough about it. I like hiring that done. Stinks to have pay for it. What do you guys think of all that weight of water on that round type of stand built on one end? You would have about 4000 lbs between 375 gallons of water and the weight of the tank in a circle a little under 36 inches. Would the welds on the stand hold no problem? Would a 4" concrete floor crack? I know the tank was originally designed to hold air. It is going to be much heavier now. Thanks for your time and experience.

I have a 4 1/2' diameter tank standing on end, 720 gallons worth./// It will stratify better on end(upright) as there is less area to the layering, although a horizontal tank that is charged carefully will stratify well, just needs more care. The concrete will hold as mentioned, Randy

 

[Gasifier]

I don’t know if it makes sense at all in your situation, but a horizontal tank up on a rack or suspended from the floor joists next to a wall at an elevation higher than the boiler would give you nice way to solve the dump zone problem.

—ewd

Good point. My basement is 4 feet in the ground. My storage area is at ground level next to the room where the wood boiler is going. So the tank would be above the wood boiler if I lay it down in the storage area. What do you need between the tank and the boiler for the dump zone idea to work? Any special valves needed? I would put a shut off valve on each side of the tank. What else? I guess maybe the best thing for me to do is post a floor plan with the equipment in it of what I have and ask you folks what I need to have in the system. Now I just have to decide if I want to go with it horizontally or vertically. Physically and cost wise the horizontal in the storage area would be easier. It sends the water a little out of the way, but not far.


I have a 4 1/2’ diameter tank standing on end, 720 gallons worth./// It will stratify better on end(upright) as there is less area to the layering, although a horizontal tank that is charged carefully will stratify well, just needs more care. The concrete will hold as mentioned, Randy

I just got word the tank will arrive Monday. I will let you know exactly where the fittings are on it and hopefully you can give me some guidance placement and plumbing it up then. Thanks for your input guys.

 

[ewdudley]

I don’t know if it makes sense at all in your situation, but a horizontal tank up on a rack or suspended from the floor joists next to a wall at an elevation higher than the boiler would give you nice way to solve the dump zone problem.

—ewd

Good point. My basement is 4 feet in the ground. My storage area is at ground level next to the room where the wood boiler is going. So the tank would be above the wood boiler if I lay it down in the storage area. What do you need between the tank and the boiler for the dump zone idea to work? Any special valves needed?

You would just need an AutoMag or similar to bypass flo-cheks, pump, mixing valve or whatnot when power goes out, and the piping route to the storage tank needs to allow thermo-siphon to take place.

But hang on a minute, I think you said you're getting a WoodGun. Better check with them since they make a high mass unit that is supposed to shut down very effectively. With a WoodGun you may not need a dump zone to begin with.

 

[Gasifier]

You would just need an AutoMag or similar to bypass flo-cheks, pump, mixing valve or whatnot when power goes out, and the piping route to the storage tank needs to allow thermo-siphon to take place.

But hang on a minute, I think you said you’re getting a WoodGun. Better check with them since they make a high mass unit that is supposed to shut down very effectively. With a WoodGun you may not need a dump zone to begin with.

Good point. Thanks. I will talk to Alternate Heating Systems about the dump zone. I already have a brand new E100 S.S. Wood Gun in the basement. Just got it a few weeks ago. Now I am getting the tank. It will be a few weeks before install actually starts. I can't wait. I am going to try to post a floor plan/diagram of what I have and ask you folks to give me some gudiance for install. I will also try to post some pictures of the tank and where the plumbing ports are on it so you can suggest best piping arrangement for the ports that it has. (I do not want to have to change anything with the tank. As long as the hot water is coming in the top and the cold water is coming out close to the bottom, I think I better leave the tank alone.) Then, after reading my entire wood gun manual and taking some advice from you guys. I will show my boiler guys everything and see when they can get started. Thanks again.

 

[cschwinn]

It's hard to go wrong. Vertical has its advantages, but water stratifies well and there's plenty of guys out there who are as pleased as can be with a single horizontal tank.

Since you can take advantage of some adjacent, dry, and marginally useful space it sounds great. If you go horizontal ideally you would want to find a way to get the water jets to be horizontal inside the tank. Any kind of diffuser would be an advantage to keep the hot water from jetting down and mixing with the lower layer, or the return water from jetting up into the hot layer.

Having horizontal ports welded into the top and bottom of the end of the tank would be ideal for you since you're going to be tight on head space and it would be nice not to have to deal with plumbing above and below the tank lying on its side.

--ewd[/quote]

Any leads as to how I could find a diffuser? Or what to use as a diffuser? I stumbled upon a 320 gallon propane tank and need to leave it horizontal due to space. I wanted to pipe in supply and return from the top but wanted to get the return lower with a dip tube. I didn't see any "diffusers" in a search and wondered what is out there that would fit through the threaded tap on the top of the tank. Any leads?

Thanks!

 

[jebatty]

If your ports/fittings are large enough, you can fit in a size smaller bent or 90* elbow copper fitting to direct the flow horizontal. Keep in mind that 1" normally is good for about 8 gpm / 80,000 btuh and 1-1/4" 14 gpm / 140,000 btuh at delta-T=20F. This was my initial setup on my horizontal propane tank. Then when I moved the tank I had a welder install 2" fittings near the top and bottom of one end, but even with this in the top fitting I installed a 1-1/4" pipe 18" or 24" long (don't remember) with the thought of helping direct the supply flow across the top of the tank to enhance stratification and minimize mixing or possible establishment of a circular flow supply/return inside the tank.

In my setup the tank only supplies for radiant floor, so these two fittings perform this job well (mix-down to 100F supply). I would recommend giving consideration to using the tank as a large hydraulic separator/storage tank and putting top and bottom fittings on both ends of the tank. I currently am involved in a system which will have a 4000 gal vertical tank for a WG E500 and the tank most likely will be plumbed as a hydraulic separator/storage tank.

Also keep in mind that if you are supplying low temperature radiant, tank mixing possibility likely is not an issue. At mix-down to 100F supply in my system, I really don't care if any mixing occurs in the tank.

 

[ewdudley]

Any leads as to how I could find a diffuser? Or what to use as a diffuser? I stumbled upon a 320 gallon propane tank and need to leave it horizontal due to space. I wanted to pipe in supply and return from the top but wanted to get the return lower with a dip tube. I didn't see any "diffusers" in a search and wondered what is out there that would fit through the threaded tap on the top of the tank. Any leads?

The dip tube won't need a diffuser since return water flow will be directed at the bottom of the tank.

For hot water entering the top, three things that have been tried are a capped tube with holes in the side, a capped tube with slots in the side, and a little upside-down table with little legs welded to the inside of the nipple. If I had to do it again I might try an upside-down parasol that unfolds with a small sheet of inner-tube or rubber roofing to deflect the water sideways.

But I highly doubt it's that big of a deal. Plenty of guys have plumbed in horizontal tanks with no diffusers and I've yet to hear any of them express any regret.

Here's a thread:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/49119/#709974